Average Runs

[av84fun]

Would those of you who have witnessed far more pro 14.1 tournaments than I have, tell me what you estimate the average length of runs would be AFTER the rack has been broken into...such as in Bob Jewett's 14.1 challenge at DCC.

What I mean by that is to exclude from the average a player making a couple of balls after the initial break and then playing safe.

THANKS!
Jim

 

[sjm]

Would those of you who have witnessed far more pro 14.1 tournaments than I have, tell me what you estimate the average length of runs would be AFTER the rack has been broken into...such as in Bob Jewett's 14.1 challenge at DCC.

What I mean by that is to exclude from the average a player making a couple of balls after the initial break and then playing safe.

THANKS!
Jim

Not a simple question, but one clue is this - Irving Crane used to suggest that at top level pro competition, the cost of an open table miss was, on average thirty five balls. Of course, agaist a Mosconi, it was surely over fifty.

 

[Pete]

I have the 2000 Open on tape. Segil said that at that level most matches are over with in 3 innings minus a safety battle. Hope that helps.


Pete

 

[pdcue]

Would those of you who have witnessed far more pro 14.1 tournaments than I have, tell me what you estimate the average length of runs would be AFTER the rack has been broken into...such as in Bob Jewett's 14.1 challenge at DCC.

What I mean by that is to exclude from the average a player making a couple of balls after the initial break and then playing safe.

THANKS!
Jim

That would be me.

I was a serious sweator in the late 70s to early 90s, saw
literaly hundreds of 14.1 matches, many with the best
of the day.

I attended several of the PPPA World Championships in NYC.
Saw Sigle and Varner trade the trophy back-and-forth for 3 or 4 years
in a row, watched Miz run 150-and-out vs Grady off his first shot
in the semis, then strugle to roll in the final 6 abainst Danny DiLiberto
in the finals.

But, enough about me.

Average is a word with lots of semantic considerations, but the
quote from Crane is as good a guess as any.

Sometimes it's 3 or 4, but I would say 50 balls or so
would be a realistic expectation from a top player
who is playing to run balls. These would be guys who have
no dificulty running 100 every time they play.

HTH

Dale

 

[Mike_Mason]

Over 10 per inning is a good score...

Back in the 70's when we had qualifiers for the BCA U.S. Open...we kept score by "innings." Each turn at the table was an inning whether you played a safety or ran a hundred balls...

If you got your 150 pts in ten innings or less (15.0 average) then you probably won your match...lol no gurarantee but you just played a very good game...you might have played seven safeties and had three runs of fifty...??? or nine safeties and a run out...???

And if you averaged over 10 balls per inning for the tournament then you just might have won the tournament...or someone played real good to beat you...

We had some 1,2, and 3 inning matches...but the average average was somewhere around 5 pts per inning...

If that means anything lol...


Mike

 

[TheWizard]

On average when I was playing alot of straight pool, I would've been averaging between 4 - 12 innings (Not including safety play, and I foud that I always played to 125 for a normal game, but on occasion I would play to 200 or 250, and so, obviously the number of inning would be much higher, but they are good practice, but when you play longer games, it gives a player the chance to really get going and run some balls

The idea of shooting regular games of straight pool and trying to practice taking fewer inning to finish a game, is a good technique to try and you can also track your progress over a period of time too

Willie

 

[jondrums]

The idea of shooting regular games of straight pool and trying to practice taking fewer inning to finish a game, is a good technique to try and you can also track your progress over a period of time too
Willie

This makes sense - I was thinking that it might makes sense to take BIH (or BIH behind the line) after a miss, so that *how you miss* doesn't incur an extra inning if you don't leave a possible offensive shot.
Jon

 

[dave sutton]

when i played a good player or a player i felt could beat me. i didnt focus on running. i focused on whatever could get me the best results or get me back to the table.

in other words if taking a scratch or playing a safe was the thing that gave me best results thats what i did. wheather i ran 5 or 50 i always wanted to get back to the table

 

[Cameron Smith]

FWIW, I finished watching the Danny Harriman vs. John Schmidt 400 point match and Schmidt averaged 33.3 balls per inning and Harriman 25.3 balls per inning.

This does not include safeties, however it does include pocketing 1 or 2 balls then playing a safe, as well as first shot misses.

 

[Blackjack]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe what you are asking is that if the pros started with an open break shot, what would their average runs be?

I practice this way often, and most of my runs are in the 28-42 range, sometimes I go fruther than that, sometimes I can't get out of the first rack.

I would guess that Schmidt and Harriman would be in the 56-70 range, and would tell you the same thing about the days that they can't get out of the first rack.

It depends on the equipment, and I have always maintained that the DCC numbers are not representative of what you would find in the every day numbers because of the Diamond table. If you want to see big numbers, get a Gabriel, Gold Crown, or an Olhausen. You won't see a lot of big numbers on a Diamond because of the pocket cut on those corner pockets. I don't know how far Ervolino would have gotten with those big angle break shots playing on a Diamond table.

The Miz said, "On these tables, you need to get right every time. If you don't, you're sitting down because the ball won't go."

Danny's 139 in 2006 is an amazing number of balls to run on a table with pockets that tight, as is John Schmidt's 112 the same year.

By this, I am saying that the equipment is a big part of it. Personally, I hate it when the balls are waxed. For me, freshly cleaned/waxed/slick balls on Simonis 860 is a skidfest (I know that Danny Harriman feels the same exact way) whereas this does not bother John Schmidt in the slightest.

Another thing to note is that nobody gets up and runs 100's consistently. I play 14.1 almost every day for 2-3 hours. Some days I go home with high run for the day of 28. Some days I get above 100, some days I get into the 120's (not too often). It all depends on how well the balls are spreading and how well I am picking them off in the correct patterns. Some days are better than others.

 

[mosconiac]

Danny's 139 in 2006 is an amazing number of balls to run on a table with pockets that tight, as is John Schmidt's 112 the same year.

I have similar feelings for Mika's 160 at Bob Jewett's 2007 DCC Challenge. To put together that many on that table was as impressive to me as just about anything I've ever seen or heard about past 14.1 runs.

 

[dave sutton]

if anyone has ever heard of stevie wonder a philly player (dombrowski or something like that) anyways. we had a quad shim gold crown 2 in my old room and he would run 100's + like it was nothing. all day all the time.

pockets were like 4 in literally. maybe smaller.

 

[deanoc]

starting with the break shot of choice will anyone bet they can run 1oo balls
why do they keep changing the pockets size and shape?Are there standard sizes and angles for pockets?

Do diamond tables also have unusual rails that affect the speed and angles?

I am not a good player ,but i don't enjoy the game on these tables.

 

[Marop]

WPA specifications for pocket openings:


The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ? inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to 15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other - where the nose of the cushion changes direction - to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ? inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]
__________________

 

[john schmidt]

hi

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe what you are asking is that if the pros started with an open break shot, what would their average runs be?

I practice this way often, and most of my runs are in the 28-42 range, sometimes I go fruther than that, sometimes I can't get out of the first rack.

I would guess that Schmidt and Harriman would be in the 56-70 range, and would tell you the same thing about the days that they can't get out of the first rack.

It depends on the equipment, and I have always maintained that the DCC numbers are not representative of what you would find in the every day numbers because of the Diamond table. If you want to see big numbers, get a Gabriel, Gold Crown, or an Olhausen. You won't see a lot of big numbers on a Diamond because of the pocket cut on those corner pockets. I don't know how far Ervolino would have gotten with those big angle break shots playing on a Diamond table.

The Miz said, "On these tables, you need to get right every time. If you don't, you're sitting down because the ball won't go."

Danny's 139 in 2006 is an amazing number of balls to run on a table with pockets that tight, as is John Schmidt's 112 the same year.

By this, I am saying that the equipment is a big part of it. Personally, I hate it when the balls are waxed. For me, freshly cleaned/waxed/slick balls on Simonis 860 is a skidfest (I know that Danny Harriman feels the same exact way) whereas this does not bother John Schmidt in the slightest.

Another thing to note is that nobody gets up and runs 100's consistently. I play 14.1 almost every day for 2-3 hours. Some days I go home with high run for the day of 28. Some days I get above 100, some days I get into the 120's (not too often). It all depends on how well the balls are spreading and how well I am picking them off in the correct patterns. Some days are better than others.

actually danny requested the balls be waxed before our 14.1 match.the balls need to be slick weather its polish or wax or whatever.the 403 i ran at the usopen this year was with unwaxed but fairly clean balls.for the record i did run 285 in milton fl on a diamond table 2 years ago but the corner pockets were 4.75.anyway thats the highest ive seen on a diamond but this was a loose diamond.i had around 20 people watch the entire run including the owner randy white.my high on the diamond we play on at the derby is 157.i could run over 200 on these tables if i had new cloth dry air,polished balls and given id say a month.i dont however feel i could ever run 400 no matter how long i had.tables just to tight.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Would those of you who have witnessed far more pro 14.1 tournaments than I have, tell me what you estimate the average length of runs would be AFTER the rack has been broken into...such as in Bob Jewett's 14.1 challenge at DCC.

What I mean by that is to exclude from the average a player making a couple of balls after the initial break and then playing safe.

THANKS!
Jim

At DCC last year, Immonen had an average of 60 or so. The averages from the 14.1 shoot-out are misleading because there is no penalty for trying and missing a 20% shot if it is the only shot to play.

In his home room, Cranfield was about 90% to get through each rack in practice. This yields an average run of something over 100. Several 14.1 players have been said to run 100 nearly every day. Tom Jennings, who won the US Open twice, said that his daily goal was 100.

Average runs in tournaments are usually much lower than practice averages. An exception is the finals of the NJ State C'ship that I saw between Robles and Hohmann. The shortest run of any sort in that match was 23 -- if a player made one ball, he ran at last 22 more. A year or two later, Hohmann averaged 50.00 in the European championships with several 125-and-outs. I think that included safe innings.

 

[Blackjack]

actually danny requested the balls be waxed before our 14.1 match.the balls need to be slick weather its polish or wax or whatever.the 403 i ran at the usopen this year was with unwaxed but fairly clean balls.for the record i did run 285 in milton fl on a diamond table 2 years ago but the corner pockets were 4.75.anyway thats the highest ive seen on a diamond but this was a loose diamond.i had around 20 people watch the entire run including the owner randy white.my high on the diamond we play on at the derby is 157.i could run over 200 on these tables if i had new cloth dry air,polished balls and given id say a month.i dont however feel i could ever run 400 no matter how long i had.tables just to tight.

John,

I remember a few years ago, you and I had a conversation about the size of the side pockets being a a bigger factor than the corner pockets. You also discuss that with Pat Fleming on your 112 ball run at the DCC. I believe that the side pockets come into play a lot more on the Diamonds than the corner pockets. On the corners, you can always adjust your position on the break ball to ensure that you're not fighting with the corner pocket cut. Adjusting to the side pockets are a different story because of the angles you have when shooting the balls out of the rack area.

I have found that if you are fighting a table with extremely tough side pockets, it makes it much more difficult to get out of racks where you need those pockets the most. Like you, I use the side pockets a lot. FWIW, on that 112 where you did the player review with Pat, the run ended when you got a tough angle on your break ball and the corner pocket rejected it due to the speed. I think that the shot you missed would have went easily on those Gabriels that were used in the World Championships in 2006.

I was just wondering what your thoughts are about the side pocket size on different tables - how much is it a factor to you when trying to put together a good run?

 

[TheWizard]

I too prefer use the side pockets quite frequently, in fact when I'm shooting straight pool, I prefer to shoot at just the foot end of the table, only using the 2 lower corners and both side pockets, as I feel that this allows for a little easier and more effective pattern play

Are there many other players who appraoch straight pool in this way?

Willie

 

[john schmidt]

John,

I remember a few years ago, you and I had a conversation about the size of the side pockets being a a bigger factor than the corner pockets. You also discuss that with Pat Fleming on your 112 ball run at the DCC. I believe that the side pockets come into play a lot more on the Diamonds than the corner pockets. On the corners, you can always adjust your position on the break ball to ensure that you're not fighting with the corner pocket cut. Adjusting to the side pockets are a different story because of the angles you have when shooting the balls out of the rack area.

I have found that if you are fighting a table with extremely tough side pockets, it makes it much more difficult to get out of racks where you need those pockets the most. Like you, I use the side pockets a lot. FWIW, on that 112 where you did the player review with Pat, the run ended when you got a tough angle on your break ball and the corner pocket rejected it due to the speed. I think that the shot you missed would have went easily on those Gabriels that were used in the World Championships in 2006.

I was just wondering what your thoughts are about the side pocket size on different tables - how much is it a factor to you when trying to put together a good run?

actually ive rethought what i said about the sides being a bigger factor.they are not a bigger factor because of the break ball.but i think they are as big a factor.