AZB Player Money List - top 10 last 5 years (After IPT)
- Thread starter Roy Steffensen
- Start date
I for one think that the money list reflects pretty well the popularity and TV/media coverage of our beloved sports. In fact, I think pool billiards is doing pretty well in this regard. People compare pool to golf, but golf's popularity, esteem and media coverage is way higher than pool's.
To take a completely different discipline, badminton, into comparison: I think it's way more popular as a recreational and competitive sport around the world. It has good TV/media coverage at least in the eastern countries like China, Indonesia, Malaysia and such. However, it's best players make roughly the same money as do the best pool players. Lee Chong Wei, world's #1 in men's singles, made around $260k in prize money last year.
I myself do enjoy watching pool, but my general feeling is that it's difficult to grow pool's TV coverage. As an example, a lot of my friends watch snooker religiously, but never want to watch any free and high-quality pool videos or streams I post to them. Mosconi Cup being perhaps the only exception.
All in all, I don't think pool players should be paid as much as golf players. I wouldn't mind it, of course, but I don't think the market exists. (A smaller market does exist and it certainly hasn't been explored to the full, but I don't think it's even close to that of golf or tennis.) I could be wrong though.
To take a completely different discipline, badminton, into comparison: I think it's way more popular as a recreational and competitive sport around the world. It has good TV/media coverage at least in the eastern countries like China, Indonesia, Malaysia and such. However, it's best players make roughly the same money as do the best pool players. Lee Chong Wei, world's #1 in men's singles, made around $260k in prize money last year.
I myself do enjoy watching pool, but my general feeling is that it's difficult to grow pool's TV coverage. As an example, a lot of my friends watch snooker religiously, but never want to watch any free and high-quality pool videos or streams I post to them. Mosconi Cup being perhaps the only exception.
All in all, I don't think pool players should be paid as much as golf players. I wouldn't mind it, of course, but I don't think the market exists. (A smaller market does exist and it certainly hasn't been explored to the full, but I don't think it's even close to that of golf or tennis.) I could be wrong though.
I agree, how was he trying to scam anyone, by putting millions of dollars into something that he never got back. I am sure he saw it as a sport he could afford to buy and make profitable with players getting paid well but it all did not work out. Either way the players saw the biggest paydays of their lives and we will never see those kind of pool tournaments or venues again. I am sure most players felt it was like a dream and could not believe it, then they woke up. I hate how people bash Kevin Trudeau, maybe he is a crook and a shyster but when it came to pool he took a big loss. Kevin actually fit into the pool world believe it or not, we have some crooks and shysters, some of them are some of your heroes.
Yes John, Shane is "raking it it", but then he's #1 on the list. Further down the list, #7 and #8 (and anyone lower) are making less than $50,000 a year, which imo is NOT raking it in. And, like someone said, there's still entry fees, travel, lodging, etc. costs they have to provide. I bet there's more than one professional poolplayer that wishes he hadn't quit school at the age of 14 to pursue a career in pool. Getting old with little or no sources of dependable income has gotta suck!!!
As far as the second part of your post I quoted, if all the #20's (and lower) kept quitting, pretty soon there would be no professional pool at all. Can you imagine the payout for a tournament with only 19 players entered
?Maniac (eating a grilled-cheese sandwich at the moment)
But what about 2012, or 2014, or when Lee Chong Wei is 48 years old? The problem with the lower paying sports is that unless you finish at or near the very top, you can't make a decent living from YEAR-TO-YEAR. You cannot sit down at a table and plan a budget because you never KNOW what you are going to make in any given year. What if your tennis player(or pool player for that matter) breaks his/her arm, or comes down with a bad illness. Do the sanctioned bodies that they play for have a sick-leave policy in place? I doubt it. How much money do you think they would make in THAT kind of a year? Also, many sports are games for YOUNG persons and making a living at them as one progressively gets older becomes more difficult. So, by the time they reach the "golden years", how do you think these people are going to make it? Do the governing bodies for the sports they choose have a retirement plan? I doubt it. I hope they planned ahead. I bet the players that quit school to pursue a career in pool weren't thinking that far ahead.
Maniac
I would think the travel expenses, food/lodging, entry fees and whatnot for a pro traveling within the US on the tournament trail is probably 15k-20k for the year and with someone who travels worldwide being 30k on up. I would be interested in seeing one of the top guys expense numbers.
In all of the talk about the state of pool in the USA I am pretty sure that almost everyone who was discussing it specifically stated SVB was the isolated exception. Post Mosconi Cup people stated pretty clearly that SVB was the only "actual" full time touring professional pool player in the USA. So what exactly was it you were trying to say that conflicts with anything that has been discussed in the recent times about the state of pool in the USA JB? Everyone very clearly stated that SVB was an exception and those of us that said that are not that surprised to see him at the top of this list.
Archer at #8 as the only other American on the list is not exactly a great stat. He made less then half of what any of the top 4 people on that list made, the dropoff after Darren is considerable from $470,000 for 4th to $307,000 for 5th. Johnny made $236,385 over a 5 year time span. Guess what, I would not work for a company that offered me that type of money over that span of time, that is barely over $45,000/yr before taxes, that is not alot of money for anyone that wants to own a house, raise a family, and save for retirement. Johnny has other income streams coming in and I am sure he does OK, and that is a good thing because pool winnings alone are not paying his bills.
I know. I agree with you. I thought the IPT was the way forward as well and if you search for my posts around that time you will see what I thought of the IPT after attending the Sigel/Jones match. Kelly Fisher told me after the big Orlando meeting that it was the first time in her life that she felt like a professional.
Lots of us have lived on grilled cheese. And when you do you will grab any steak you can get when you get it. I think that the idea that players were selling their souls to be a part of the IPT is over the top though. Who wouldn't want to try to get a part of that pie? All in all I have heard that the IPT pumped 12 million in prize money into player's pockets in the year it was in operation. Not to rehash the whole thing but a decent number of players did ok that year. It was worth trying for.
My point was that even with Shane being the exception I think most would have bet that he wasn't the top money earner. I wouldn't have bet on it.
Yes John, Shane is "raking it it", but then he's #1 on the list. Further down the list, #7 and #8 (and anyone lower) are making less than $50,000 a year, which imo is NOT raking it in. And, like someone said, there's still entry fees, travel, lodging, etc. costs they have to provide. I bet there's more than one professional poolplayer that wishes he hadn't quit school at the age of 14 to pursue a career in pool. Getting old with little or no sources of dependable income has gotta suck!!!
As far as the second part of your post I quoted, if all the #20's (and lower) kept quitting, pretty soon there would be no professional pool at all. Can you imagine the payout for a tournament with only 19 players entered
Maniac (eating a grilled-cheese sandwich at the moment)
And that is my point. As long as there is someone doing better than you then you will keep trying to overtake them. Someone new always comes along that thinks they are better. So there will always be plenty of players to provide the next Archers and SVBs.
Grilled Cheese Rocks by the way!
It's even worse than you showed. Mr. Letzig is actually 233rd this year on the PGA Tour instead of #200. And 66 guys on the Champions Tour (for seniors) have earned more than Shane's $160,000. And 31 guys on the Nationwide Tour have earned more than Shane. That puts 330 golfers ahead of Shane based on money earned just on US tours. Then you have the men's pro golf tours in Europe, Asia, Japan, Australia, Canada, and others. And let's not even think about all the women golf pros around the world earning more than Shane.
Shane should just quit. It's not worth his effort.
Grilled cheese with grilled onions and mustard on rye.
It's even worse than you showed. Mr. Letzig is actually 233rd this year on the PGA Tour instead of #200. And 66 guys on the Champions Tour (for seniors) have earned more than Shane's $160,000. And 31 guys on the Nationwide Tour have earned more than Shane. That puts 330 golfers ahead of Shane based on money earned just on US tours. Then you have the men's pro golf tours in Europe, Asia, Japan, Australia, Canada, and others. And let's not even think about all the women golf pros around the world earning more than Shane.
Shane should just quit. It's not worth his effort.
Shane could get estrogen injections and surgery and try his luck on the LPGA.
Seems like he is living his dream though. I'd be happy to be pulling down 150k jetting around the world playing pool for a living. I'd even play with a Cuetec if they paid me enough
The funny part is if you look at the numbers I bet that there are a lot more people TRYING to be pro golfers than there are people trying to be pro pool players. So frankly I am surprised that the number of pro golfers that are making more than Shane is so low considering the amount of participation.
There are a lot tougher jobs out there that pay a lot less than being a professional pool player.
To me the hardest thing about being a pro pool player isn't the amount of money in the game. It's traveling around the country and the world and not being sure if you are even going to get paid the money that is advertised and IF you do then WHEN is it paid. That's what is hard to plan for.
The amount of frustration and energy that players have to spend AFTER the event to get paid is ridiculous.
And....that's IF that player even finishes in the money, otherwise he/she is taking a REAL beating.
Maniac
True all that. I'm not trying to say that badminton players (or pool players) earn well enough to secure their future. I'm just saying, comparing the relavite popularity and media coverage, pool is doing pretty well. I think comparing to golf or tennis is unfair, because they are way more popular.
I agree that if sizeable number of players are to make a professional career out of pool or badminton, the prize money just isn't there. Should it be? I don't know.
I agree but to use your analogy there are PLENTY of baseball players who do everything that Puhols does and get WAY less for it. All the minor league player slogging it out waiting to be called up.....all the third stringers in the majors who have to travel just as much, practice just as much, suit up for every game.......
I guess the real point I am making is that NO ONE should ever, ever, ever feel sorry for anyone who plays a game for a living. Not when compared to all the people who work REALLY hard for far less. It's a choice to play pool.
And the whole thing about comparing what people make doesn't make sense. The baseball player who get's $250 million over ten years (with a MILLION stipulations in his contract) probably is jealous of Tiger Woods getting an $80 million contract from Nike for walking on the grass a couple times a year...... as Confucius said, 'there is always a heaven above the heaven'.
We used to say it's impolite to talk about people's salaries. Of course everyone does it.
Most WPA events pay all places. So you're technically in the money just by being there.
But your point is well understood.
If I were a pro player I would probably not go anywhere without a sponsor to pick up most if not all the expenses. Going to a tournament on someone else's money is certainly less pressure than going on your own.
It's like that old pool player's joke. Two road players are in a motel room and one of them is having a nightmare and the other one wakes him up......"Billy what's wrong, you ok??" - Billy says, "I just had the worst nightmare, I was playing for $1000"....."so what?" says the other one, Billy replies, "I was betting my own money".
Yeah, shouldn't that money be counted? After all those TAR matches are billed as two-man tournaments.......
Yes it does, but after a while (& too many) your bowls are the same
.If you believe Kevin, he was building a sellable IPT business to the guy who wanted to do off-shore betting that didn't pan out due to change of laws. His plan was to make money, not simply donate to the pool world. But he ended up doing just that and some made some nice coin in the process. It was exiting for a couple years.
Passion, in my opinion, is why the players choose to become players. It's not a long term business decision. I think pool chooses them as much as they choose pool. It is very hard to get to the level of play to decide to gamble and/or play tourneys for your living, although some get there at a very early age. The biggest allure is the $1,000s of dollars that could be made at an early age - it's hard to work at a job for $10/hr to put yourself through school when you have the ability to earn as much as your professors (if you don't factor in your loses
).Many do not have the level of passion to choose that life, because the force has to be strong, so they get jobs, go to school, and play pool their whole life as a fantastic hobby. This probably happened to many of the forum members including me.
What could be worse than choosing pool as your sport of choice (if it's a sport), to dedicate your early life to get very good at it, with the possibility of greatness to where you would be forced to make the choice to go full-time or not? Try getting good at 3-cushion billiards at an early age
. Very little gambling opportunities and very little money in tournaments in the USA.But the underlying theme is passion! If it's strong enough, you play; it's as simple as that. Your choice in time is whether you work while you play or dive in head first. Those listed above are getting rewarded for being their own bosses (unless married).
Thanks for posting these figures, it is very interesting.
Dave