Azbilliards.com Professional 10 Ball Tour

[Joe T]

I just want to point something out, because I don't think anyone else has yet. I believe the Camel Tour had some 10-ball events, and they failed miserably. The fact is, the general public doesn't like the game, and neither do most pro players.

A better tour idea, would be 7-ball, but without the ball in hand rule after missing. Eliminating that rule would result in more defensive play, and difficult defensive play. Because with less balls on the table, playing a safety isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do.

There's another two cents from me, and it's my 3rd post on this topic. So that's six cents all together. Only $49.94 more to go.

Ace take it easy buddy, I played in those events and the didn't fail miserable. They had full fields with waiting lists. The only professional pool players you'll find that want to keep 9 ball in play are the ones that know how to read and predict the 9 ball rack. 7 Ball is an insult to pro players. 10 Ball decreases arguements at our events and rewards the better breaker, not the better racker and the better players.
Keep posting, the more involved people get the better of we'll be.

 

[AceHigh]

Ace take it easy buddy, I played in those events and the didn't fail miserable. They had full fields with waiting lists. The only professional pool players you'll find that want to keep 9 ball in play are the ones that know how to read and predict the 9 ball rack. 7 Ball is an insult to pro players. 10 Ball decreases arguements at our events and rewards the better breaker, not the better racker and the better players.
Keep posting, the more involved people get the better of we'll be.

Yes, it did fail, otherwise it would still be around. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing 10 ball, but I really don't think this tour will work.

Good luck though.

 

[JAM]

Ace take it easy buddy, I played in those events and the didn't fail miserable. They had full fields with waiting lists. The only professional pool players you'll find that want to keep 9 ball in play are the ones that know how to read and predict the 9 ball rack.

Hear, hear! I mean, after all, they've got books written about racking and breaking strategies. Neutral rackers is the way to go, at least have them on hand during semi-final and final matches. The players themselves sometimes insist on a neutral racker during events because both of them cannot seem to agree on a "good" rack.

One pro player said to me during a smoke break while he was playing his match that he knew his opponent was giving him the "bum" rack and that he was going to do the same thing to him. Some players who run 6-, 7-, and 8-packs seem to do so when they are racking their own balls -- not all, but some.

7 Ball is an insult to pro players.

Good action game, though.

10 Ball decreases arguments at our events and rewards the better breaker, not the better racker and the better players. Keep posting, the more involved people get the better of we'll be.

The players themselves preferred to play 10-ball at the recent Super Billiards Expo on the Action Table, open to all challengers, as opposed to 9-ball, as depicted below!

JAM

 

[Joe T]

I, for one, would love to see a 10-ball tour. I agree on numerous points made on this thread but I have a few points of my own.
1) All of the regional tours that I know of are owned by individuals and are moneymakers for those that continue to hold onto them. How could we possibly unite them underneath another organization unless they were bought out?
2) The UPA is doing the best it can at the moment. There are always problems with organizations and from what I have seen on tour the powers that be do listen to the players and try to correct issues that come up. An example would be the walkouts by players at a couple of events. That issue has been dealt with and any player that does that gets penalized for it. I haven't seen it happen since the rule change to prevent it. Anyone with suggestions for improving the tour should submit them to the UPA directly.
3) The Hilton tour was a great idea but not really meant for professional pool. I went to both of them and while they were great tournaments the $$ added was based on room nights and pro players can't afford to keep paying for a room once they are eliminated from an event. There is a plan to possibly use the amateur tours for the Hilton events.
4) While I agree that unity has always been a problem I don't see anyone in the UPA purposely trying to interfere with other tours. In most cases, the sponsor gets to set the dates for the tournament and it sucks that the Predator UPA event and the Masters conflicted. I don't believe it was done on purpose.
5) What I would really like to see is all of the players give the UPA a chance. All of the fighting over who's right and wrong needs to stop and right now the UPA is the Men's Pro organization. If you would like to support the Men's tour that is where you should start. I joined the UPA not because I thought it was a great organization but because I wanted to support the effort to get a tour. Anyone who aspires to be a pro or already has the game to be on tour should support the tour and get out and play. People post that the Hilton tour failed yet if all the people that pointed fingers went to play or watch it would be a successful tour.

Overall, I, like Joe Tucker, would like to see a full tour where the players have the opportunity to make decent money and where you can pick what events you can go to. I also believe that 10-ball is a better and more professional game than 9-ball and I hope to some events in the future. The past doesn't predict the future unless you live in the past.

Hi Chris, nice to see you here posting. I was testing the waters with this post. Wanted to see if I could actually get some people off the keyboards and into the trenches. I honestly thought I would get a few more than I did but like some said it's really not there responsibility. Maybe the UPA could use this approach and ask all our members to become small fund raisers. Supply us with the proper promotional material we as players might have a better chance to talk some people into funding a better tour. Even if there's is no return on their money. I can't see 10 people saying no to Johnny if he asked. Do you know if they do any kind of raising yet?

 

[vapoolplayer]

Yes, it did fail, otherwise it would still be around. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing 10 ball, but I really don't think this tour will work.

Good luck though.

the events themselves didn't fail, the tour did. it had NOTHING to do with the fact that is was ten ball.

you said "most pro players dont like it".............well........i'd say most ring games nowadays are ten ball, the challenge tables are turning to ten ball.........so i don't see where you get your info from.


keep talking joe, i'm reading this avidly deciding how to help out.

have you come up with some sort of generic sales pitch to help members get the possible sponsors to come up with the 50 a month? would be nice to hear some pitches that you might have in mind................as no one is going to give us money without us giving them a damn good reason.

thanks

VAP

 

[Williebetmore]

I agree with VAP, I DOUBT that most pro's dislike 10-ball. At DCC I spoke with 4 top pro's who all preferred 10 ball for the reasons JoeT discusses on his site (and these were pro's who were very "accomplished" in the racking arts that weaken the already dubious credibility of 9-ball).

 

[Mark Griffin]

Azbilliards.com Professional 10 Ball

I have read this thread with a lot of interest. I would really like 10 ball to become the "game of the future" BUT that is NOT the real issue here. BJ stated UNITE, but that is hard to do unless all parties are willing. I know who Joe Tucker is (bought his racking secrets) and admire his devotion.

One of the reasons I acquired the BCA Pool League system was to hopefully use it as a tool to elevate the stature and help create the future of pool. I love these discussions and am publicly stating that I am game for getting involved with ANYTHING that will help promote this sport. Unfortunately, many of the "leaders" in this industry are not open to working together. So we do it without them.

I think those that want to get involved should try to get together and see what can be done. I will find a room and the time to have a group discussion at the upcoming BCA National 8-Ball event in Las Vegas May 13-21. I do not have the time to coordinate/communicate with everyone. However, I will help get it started.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League
866-usa-pool
812-987-1461 cell

 

[TheOne]

I have read this thread with a lot of interest. I would really like 10 ball to become the "game of the future" BUT that is NOT the real issue here. BJ stated UNITE, but that is hard to do unless all parties are willing. I know who Joe Tucker is (bought his racking secrets) and admire his devotion.

One of the reasons I acquired the BCA Pool League system was to hopefully use it as a tool to elevate the stature and help create the future of pool. I love these discussions and am publicly stating that I am game for getting involved with ANYTHING that will help promote this sport. Unfortunately, many of the "leaders" in this industry are not open to working together. So we do it without them.

I think those that want to get involved should try to get together and see what can be done. I will find a room and the time to have a group discussion at the upcoming BCA National 8-Ball event in Las Vegas May 13-21. I do not have the time to coordinate/communicate with everyone. However, I will help get it started.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League
866-usa-pool
812-987-1461 cell

There you go guys, what a cracking start. This is the sort of thing that I think needs to happen. You have 1, now would it really be that hard to get a represetative from the other organisations in a room at the BCA and start a dialogue, maybe let all the fans and players in first to raise there concerns and then maybe the organisations "leaders" can go spend sometime and work towards resolving the issues raised? Never thought about it in detail but is there a better place than Vegas to get all the main people in a room? Shouldn't something like this be happening every year, a pool think tank / summit, call it what you like but get people talking and pulling in the same direction for the sake of pool!

But like you said Mark you can't have a meeting alone. What are the chances of others attending something like this?

 

[Jack Flanagan]

looking for ideas ?,,,get someone to donate shirts saying "JoeT is Right" on the front and "10 Ball; The Time is Right" on the back,,,tastefully done and worn to major events will get people to talking and hopefully thinking !

did a similar (but negative) campaign to help a scumbag politician NOT get re-elected

 

[Joe T]

I have read this thread with a lot of interest. I would really like 10 ball to become the "game of the future" BUT that is NOT the real issue here. BJ stated UNITE, but that is hard to do unless all parties are willing. I know who Joe Tucker is (bought his racking secrets) and admire his devotion.

One of the reasons I acquired the BCA Pool League system was to hopefully use it as a tool to elevate the stature and help create the future of pool. I love these discussions and am publicly stating that I am game for getting involved with ANYTHING that will help promote this sport. Unfortunately, many of the "leaders" in this industry are not open to working together. So we do it without them.

I think those that want to get involved should try to get together and see what can be done. I will find a room and the time to have a group discussion at the upcoming BCA National 8-Ball event in Las Vegas May 13-21. I do not have the time to coordinate/communicate with everyone. However, I will help get it started.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League
866-usa-pool
812-987-1461 cell

Wow, Mark Griffin’s in on the discussion. Now we could be getting somewhere. Mark I have no past dealings with the leaders of our industry but if you give me some names or ideas of who you think should attend such a meeting I’ll attempt to contact them right away. In the meantime I would like to start a list of people we might want to attend.

Regional Tour leaders such as;
Mike Janis
Mike Zuglan
John Ditoro
Tom Kennedy and I’m not sure who’s heading up the Pechaur or Fury tours but I guess this is an open invitation to all tour leaders in the hopes of unity.

I would love to see someone from the APA or Tap organization on hand.

A few other people I think that would be interested and helpful in this kind of endeavor are;
Blackjack David Sapolis
Tony Annagoni
Mark Wilson
Grady Mathews and I hate to put him on the spot but Tony Robles would be a perfect player rep.
Bob Jewitt would be a definite plus
Bob & Edie Romano (already here)
Dawn & Allen Hopkins

We would also need to contact someone from major table manufactures and cue associations. Leonard you out there?

And somebody from the UPA of course.

It’s kind of short notice but let’s hope some of them were planning the trip anyways.

Okay I’m looking for contact information for.
John Ditoro
Tom Kennedy
Pechaur
Fury
APA bigshots
TAP “ “
Tony Annagoni
Mark Wilson
Cue and Table Manufacturers

I will invite Mike Janis, Mike Zuglan, Grady, Blackjack (already here) as soon as we are sure this is a go and have set a time and place. What days are best for you? I know I can't get away for the whole week.

How should I phrase such an invitation? You are cordially invited to the first meeting of the.
Azbilliards Pool Association (might have a problem with those initials)
The goal of the meeting is to unify as many separate groups as possible for the sake of our sports future and presentation?

And of course any azers that are interested in attending such an event would be welcome, that means you too Mike.

I’ll tell you right now that I’m not the most qualified of business men for this type of endeavor but I do a little common sense and a tremendous feel for how each level of players we have thinks and feels. I’m also very committed at home so I don’t have much free time but I would definitely stay up late if I was working with such a group of people.

 

[Joe T]

After posting that I realized I obviously didn't mention everyone deserving of an invitation and by no means want to offend those folks. If there not on the list please add them for me. Jay Helfert, Jerry Forsyth and all the billiard publishers came to mind and made me think of this. Please forgive.

 

[Purdman]

Tap

TAP League - Loyd Schonter, (President/Founder) loyd@tapleague.com
1-800-984-POOL (7665)
Purdman

 

[sjm]

Ace take it easy buddy, I played in those events and the didn't fail miserable. They had full fields with waiting lists. The only professional pool players you'll find that want to keep 9 ball in play are the ones that know how to read and predict the 9 ball rack. 7 Ball is an insult to pro players. 10 Ball decreases arguements at our events and rewards the better breaker, not the better racker and the better players.
Keep posting, the more involved people get the better of we'll be.

Joe, the size of the field is hardly the measuring stick for the success of an event. I attended two events the year they played ten ball, the more memorable near Cherry Hill, NJ (if I remember correctly, you beat Pat Fleming double hill by getting him on three fouls in that event, it was you, wasn't it?). They had a field of 96 if my memory serves, and a terrible crowd, despite the fact that a large field barbox amateur event was in progress in the same building, and desptite the $10 entry fee to spectate. The event could not logically be viewed as a success, though it does evidence that the players themselves were fine with the game of ten ball.

Those who win the premier nine ball tournaments today win because they're champions, and not for any other reason. Stiil, for the record, I love ten ball, and the break issue has absolutely nothing to do with it. I like it because it places a greater premium on defense, kicking and two way shots than nine ball because of the extra traffic on the table. Those are the parts of nine ball that I find most interesting, so the more tactical game of ten ball is a game I find more interesting to watch.

Let's play ten ball because it's a better game than nine ball, not to protect ourselves from unscrupulous rackers and master rackreaders. Good luck in popularizing ten ball.

 

[Joe T]

Joe, the size of the field is hardly the measuring stick for the success of an event. I attended two events the year they played ten ball, the more memorable near Cherry Hill, NJ (if I remember correctly, you beat Pat Fleming double hill by getting him on three fouls in that event, it was you, wasn't it?). They had a field of 96 if my memory serves, and a terrible crowd, despite the fact that a large field barbox amateur event was in progress in the same building, and desptite the $10 entry fee to spectate. The event could not logically be viewed as a success, though it does evidence that the players themselves were fine with the game of ten ball.

Those who win the premier nine ball tournaments today win because they're champions, and not for any other reason. Stiil, for the record, I love ten ball, and the break issue has absolutely nothing to do with it. I like it because it places a greater premium on defense, kicking and two way shots than nine ball because of the extra traffic on the table. Those are the parts of nine ball that I find most interesting, so the more tactical game of ten ball is a game I find more interesting to watch.

Let's play ten ball because it's a better game than nine ball, not to protect ourselves from unscrupulous rackers and master rackreaders. Good luck in popularizing ten ball.

It was me wasn't it. Talk about freezing a crowd, nobody knew what to do. Till Scott Smith kind of bailed us out. But that win wasn't as much fun as making eye contact with Parica right after I played the 3rd safe. He gave me the old eyebrows and nod of approval look. Somethings money can't buy!

I know the crowd wasn't there but do you think they didn't come because they knew it was 10 Ball? All the crowds were horrible (except the U.S.Open) One would logically think that if you hold an amateur event right next door to a pro event they would come on over, right? Wrong. They just wanted to play and I remember being at a level where I just wanted to play (for a breif time) and watching others did nothing for me. Like Earl says "The crowd needs to be educated". I was just saying I know the event didn't "fail miserably" because it was a 10 ball event.

"Those who win the premier nine ball tournaments today win because they're champions, and not for any other reason."

Totally, totally agree and would never insinuate otherwise. I was more insinuating that some of the younger players (who happen to know a little more about 9 ball racks) know they have a better chance of running more racks on our greater players in 9 ball, therefore having a better chance of winning at 9 ball.

"Stiil, for the record, I love ten ball, and the break issue has absolutely nothing to do with it. I like it because it places a greater premium on defense, kicking and two way shots than nine ball because of the extra traffic on the table. "

Well I agree again and those are the same reasons I love the game but reducing conflicts at all our events is just as important to me and is a cold hard fact that really can't be argued and is easier for me to use as a weapon when trying to create the switch. Ya know how many times I've heard it's just 1 more ball. If they don't understand the difference I'll never get them to see it's a much better game.

 

[TheFish]

in all seriousness

is charlie williams as much of a dickhead as a person as he is a businessman.

This guy has no long term vision.


Btw, side note..instead of starting a tour..why not get some sponsors to sponsor a cash prize for teh Azbilliards player of hte years...start assigning points to all the major tournaments..and tours..that will let everybody get in on the action? Not sure if its mentioned, but this seems liek such a straighforward solution. if you cant get them to come to u under one umbrella, just throw a big umbrella over them..for the nicer tour pple (like non UPA), ask each player if they wanna throw in an extra 5 bucks a tournament to be netered into the Azbilliards poitns..and so on.

...when's it going to stop? Nobody knows.

Sadly, this just in: http://www.q-masters.com/masters.php

JAM

 

[Chris_Lynch]

Hi Chris, nice to see you here posting. I was testing the waters with this post. Wanted to see if I could actually get some people off the keyboards and into the trenches. I honestly thought I would get a few more than I did but like some said it's really not there responsibility. Maybe the UPA could use this approach and ask all our members to become small fund raisers. Supply us with the proper promotional material we as players might have a better chance to talk some people into funding a better tour. Even if there's is no return on their money. I can't see 10 people saying no to Johnny if he asked. Do you know if they do any kind of raising yet?

I don't know of any fundraising done by the UPA. I would think that the players could not just get individuals but some companies to throw in some $$$. Definitely something to think about and I'll mention it to the UPA powers that be at the next event.

 

[vapoolplayer]

no one has answered my question yet.........i don't think i asked it the right way before so here goes.

how do you convince someone to give 50 bucks a month for two years for this?????


i'm all for this, and will help out anyway possible...........i'd just like to have a few ideas as to how to convince sponsors.

i haven't given it much thought yet, i'm sure i'll come up with ideas, but i'd like to hear other's ideas as well.

when you ask someone to give money like this, you have to do one of two things:

1: convince them that it is for a good cause (i.e. charity) because they get no return on their money.

2: show them how they can benifit from this or get a return on their money.

i'd just like to know whats in it for them, because thats what they are going to ask me when i ask for their money.

VAP

 

[Joe T]

no one has answered my question yet.........i don't think i asked it the right way before so here goes.

how do you convince someone to give 50 bucks a month for two years for this?????


i'm all for this, and will help out anyway possible...........i'd just like to have a few ideas as to how to convince sponsors.

i haven't given it much thought yet, i'm sure i'll come up with ideas, but i'd like to hear other's ideas as well.

when you ask someone to give money like this, you have to do one of two things:

1: convince them that it is for a good cause (i.e. charity) because they get no return on their money.

2: show them how they can benifit from this or get a return on their money.

i'd just like to know whats in it for them, because thats what they are going to ask me when i ask for their money.

VAP

To be honest VA I kinda tucked that question from you because I wasn't quite sure of the answer. Me asking 10 of my friends to send the $50 would be a little easier than the average player asking their friends. Most of mine know I'm always looking to start something new and am involved usually in promoting pool. So with that said I think if 100 did do this we should target only our wealthier fans, our diehard fans, our billiard clubs and our product distributers.
The speach on the business owners would be to ask them. Do you think your monthly income would grow if the pro tour had more events, was better organized and pool was promoted more often,possible on TV more? Now a days I would guess that a successful room takes in somewhere around $50,000 a month. ( this is generally rooms with liquor and food offered. For every 1% we can improve their business, they're getting $500 a month more. So a 3% improvement nets them an extra $1,500 per month. Something like that, we'll just have learn how to phrase it a little better.

Approaching our average fans that have no chance of making any money back is going to be a little tougher. I too will think about this today and try to come up with something good.

 

[King Kong]

Economic Analysis of Pro-Pool

I read these posts and was outraged. I do not feel dwelling on the past is good. Except to learn from our mistakes and move on. Here are some Economic Mistakes of the past.

1. The tours failed because it failed to obtain local support from Room owners etc.
2. The tours failed because they were too long and not on weekends
3. The tours failed because of competing dates.
4. The Leagues are not tied into the success of the tournaments. The APA & BCA should have some vested interest. Say 10% to give an incentive to properly get the word out to local bars and pool rooms and some form of measuring their success and scale of pay.
5. The locations chosen were poor and lacked strong pool demographics. Example “Pittsburg”
6. Failure to have Local room owners have qualifiers and send its best players.
7. Failed to mention the tax write off and lack of economic impact on rooms that hold qualifiers.
8. Failed to get room owners to see the marketing potential and ties to the success of local talent and the effects of cross marketing in local news papers and articles about local players.
9. Failed to have Hats, shirts & etc during match play promoting local bars or pool room’s or sponsors.
10. Failed to have the qualifiers like poker to guaranty high player turn out.
11. Failed to get pro players to commit to attending
12. Failed to protect players from pay out problems except UPA!
13. Failed to allow promoters to advertise pro-players in attendance
14. Failed to have standardized selection rules for televised events. What is the selection process for “Skins game, Challenge of Champions, Team America & etc.”
15. Failed to obtain industry support. Each Manufacturer donate a table and they rotate being feature table.
16. Failed to obtain standards of conduct except UPA!
17. Failed to create a dress code for televised matches and incorporate sponsors logo
18. Failed to provide Bio’s on televised matches or back ground on players
19. Failed to try different games except Sudden death 7 Ball. One Pocket, Ring 9 Ball & etc never explored.
20. Failed to have industry giveaways. Again a write off to the company
21. Failed to have the BCA & APA leverage its player base to solicit support for tournaments from major companies. There is strength in numbers. They can approach major companies for support of pro pool with their 500,000 plus members as justification for their marketing expense.
22. BCA and APA excluding pro players and failing to sponsor or promote them.
23. BCA & APA failing to employ pro players as instructors and/or give back exhibitions & Instruction. Who would not like Archer once every 2 weeks to work with the 1’s and 2”s of the league in exchange for sponsoring him or some other pro and you get the write of as well.
24. We have business leaders in the ranks of the APA & BCA and they have never been approached about support or having their company support the sport with their advertising dollars.
25. How many high level executives buy custom cues. Cue makers have no-one or no where to refer them too regarding supporting or sponsoring the game until the UPA! Also, let’s not exclude Japanese and over sees executives as well.



There is so much that can be done and these are just examples of what we are not doing economically to empower the sport or the pro-player. Let’s not make the same mistakes twice!

 

[frankncali]

King Kong

Its obvious that your Pro UPA so I have a question or two.

1- Why? I mean why do you feel the UPA is good for Pro pool?
2- Have they formed a tour? If so how many events?
3- Is it right for them to use strongarm tactics when other tournaments
are scheduled?
4- If they feel like the promotors of these events should have used the
UPA to sanction then why? What does the UPA offer them if they do?

5- How is the UPA proving to Pro Level players that they are behind them
and are working towards a more dominate tour?
6- How many repeated events that are sanctioned by the UPA have there been?
7- Has the UPA worked with others in the pool industry to find out what to
do to have a more marketable and successful sport?

I agree with some of the things in your post but dont feel like the UPA is the answer. Maybe it was the way they were started or maybe who started them but it not the answer to me.
Its time for players, fans, manufactures, and billiard media outlets to step up and get something done. Joe Ts post was exactly about this happening.
Either get off the pot of get to business. Even if the Pro Tour is not as big
as other sports it can be there and be successful.
It needs to be built and all people involved in pool need to be a part of getting it going.
People will have different opinions about how to get it done but I think
having discussions about it and getting pool minds together is the answer to
figure it out.
Hopefully something good will come out of people talking and bringing up likes and dislikes.
Hopefully you have some answers about the UPA because they are almost
a mystery to most. Heck most pool players dont even know what the UPA
is.
I think you have some great points in your post. Things that should be brought up.