Azbilliards.com Professional 10 Ball Tour

Blackjack

Hopefully you did not misunderstand me. I did not mean that you were
gossiping but rather tell the stuff we dont know.

Theres plenty of us here that do not REALLY know what happened with one tour or another. I am looking for the light.
Sorry if you thought I was calling you out. Not meant that way.


I also can remember something about Mackey having huge operational
costs as well but not being able to prove them. I have never been
real sure as to what the truth was but I knew that the tobacco
companies was not the answer.

I feel what you are saying but can not see how being unified first helps.
Maybe the middle ground is to become unified for a new tour.
IMO being unified as a group but not having a product just means that
were together but doing nothing.

I agree about the UPA and have been surprised that many top players are still with them but what the other options.
Maybe Joe's self promoting tour idea would catch the attention.
I just dont see doing it with the UPA.

Perhaps in Joes model guys could opt to join a new organization and have a voice. The model would be there for the next two years and the players would be unified. For the promotion of pool by the players.

They could commit to a number of the events and with time could hopefully
find a sponsor whether individual of corporate. The sponsor could see the
tour list and the locations and there could be a following.
Now it seems guys somethings get sponsored (or staked) for an event because there is not tour.

Maybe you could tell me a little more about what you think would be good after the unity.

Pool people talking civilized and trying to hash out options and answers is the way to go. I have heard numerous thoughts about pool from players.
Most just want the results right now and I dont believe that will happen.
Who is going to step in and say hey I know you barely get exposure and only a few players are known but heres a million for a tour? It dont work that way and more players need to realize that.

thanks for your sight and I enjoy reading and learning more
 
Joe T said:
Right now I'm not asking for peoples money. I'm asking for them to say I'll go out with the proper info and try to get my 10 people lined up. Just trying to see if 100 people are willing to try to do that. And if the answer turns out to be yes, then we all go out and try it and we'll either fail, succeed, come close or learn something from trying. I think there's 100 of us here that could make it happen or at least come pretty close. Can I add you to the list?
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With regrets, no you can't, though I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it down the road. I've asked why dollars spent on pool would be best directed toward the funding of a new pro tour rather than in the ways I've traditionally spent it over the years, which I've indicated. Without as much as an attempt to consider that question, you've asked whether I can be counted in.

Joe, I greatly respect you for what you're trying to accomplish here, but I'm just not sold on the idea yet. I'm sorry.
 
sjm said:
With regrets, no you can't, though I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it down the road. I've asked why dollars spent on pool would be best directed toward the funding of a new pro tour rather than in the ways I've traditionally spent it over the years, which I've indicated. Without as much as an attempt to consider that question, you've asked whether I can be counted in.

Joe, I greatly respect you for what you're trying to accomplish here, but I'm just not sold on the idea yet. I'm sorry.
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Sorry you're right I didn't answer but I wasn't intentionally trying to beat around the bush. I just see things in my head and assume you know what I'm talking about.

Why spend any time, money and effort on this idea?

What I crave for more than anything is respect for the sport. I truely believe that it's one of the most beautiful and challenging games on the planet that everyone can play and I so much want other people to see that, This small idea I have here would be a stepping stone to making that happen.

People want to be and want their children to become something special.
Ball players, doctors, golfers, teacher, etc. Right now, who's dream is it for their child to grow up and be the best pool player in the country?
I want to start to change that. And I have to start somewhere.

I think 2 yrs worth of time and 50 events would help give us some well deserved attention, leverage and how well we present it will determine how much more respect we'll bring or add to the game.

I picture the finals live once a week and I picture the men presenting themselves as well as the women do, with proper dress and attitude. Commanding respect and worthy of attention.

We need it live and we need it regularly with a Nascar type point standings. We'll just hide the prize money for now but still create the points buzz. Until we can just grab 1 sponsor for that main feature. Newspaper standing, USA today, SI, Vegas. We have to start somewhere and Lord knows I'm not proud of coming up with I'll get 2 friends and she'll get 2 friends type of idea. As stupid as it SOUNDS, I still think we could start something here with the thousands of veiwers on this site.

That's the direction I want to start heading.

There's safety in numbers, by each of us just doing a little bit, nobody gets hurt and we could all help fix something that is definately broke.

That's a general picture. More specific ideas to go along with an up and running tour are numerous.
Weekly Fantasy 10 Ball (speaking of, where's my prizes)
Obviously more endorsements for our players and hopefully more respect.
If we're bringing the players and the cash maybe the room can donate the gate, to help form more events for our minor leagues or fund some other amateur.
And I kow if we asked everyone here for more ideas, we would get more than we could handle.

Make this choice because it may be the only chance you ever have to make a significant difference in a sport you love. SJM was a founder of what is now the National 10 Ball Tour, televised weekly from an ESPN zone near you.
 
Joe T said:
...What I crave for more than anything is respect for the sport...I think 2 yrs worth of time and 50 events would help give us some well deserved attention, leverage and how well we present it will determine how much more respect we'll bring or add to the game....I picture the finals live once a week and I picture the men presenting themselves as well as the women do, with proper dress and attitude. Commanding respect and worthy of attention.
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I crave the same thing as you, Joe, but there's little evidence that the players want to clean their act up. Do you really think the presence of a new sponsor willing to invest in them will bring the players to a higher plateau of presentation, sportsmanship, and dignity? It sure wasn't the case in 2004, when Hilton Hotels took a chance on men's pro pool.

How do you think Hilton Hotels felt after, on the first day of the first event of their new tour, Larry Nevel and Corey Deuel (in two different matches) unscrewed in mid-match, the latter reportedly to go golfing. As they say, you only get one chance to make a good first impression, and the men seem to get it wrong every time. Perhaps one day the men will take the business interests of their sponsors seriously by taking their sport seriously, but that day certainly hasn’t arrived, and doesn't appear to be coming anytime soon. And how much better is the UPA? As you know, New York fans love to watch Ginky compete. Well, last year, the UPA had two events in NYC. At the Big Apple Nine Ball Challenge, when Ginky drew Ron Wiseman, he won by forfeit because Wiseman didn't show up. Turned out Wiseman was included in both the draw and the Calcutta despite his absence from the players meeting, but he never even came to New York. Wonderful. Then, at the World Summit, Jeremy Jones unscrewed in mid-match against Ginky. These organizations and pros are not committed to their fans.

While I agree that if the men clean up their act, their sport is more sellable to potential sponsors, why should I think that a new tour would rein them in and keep them in check where all other national men's pool tours in recent memory have failed?

Once again, it comes down to that great word "unity". The men, who undermine each other on a very regular basis, through their behavior, show that they are not committed to each other's success, and the infusion of new money into their sport has never seemed to change this.

I suspect the only kind of sponsor that will ever have success with men's pool is that one that stands prepared to cut off all funds if the player's fail to conduct themselves properly.

Right now, I'd need better reasons than those provided to fund a new men's tour.

This is a case of the few undermining the efforts of the many in men's pool, but those few are never held accountable or disciplined by the many, which has long sent a very negative message to all associated with mens' pro pool.

As I have for decades, I'll continue to invest in pool, but I can't find enough reasons to invest in a new men's tour. I'd be more inclined to sponsor a local player whom I know to have a history of proper demeanor, etiquette, and sportsmanship, and proper respect for the game.
 
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sjm said:
I crave the same thing as you, Joe, but there's little evidence that the players want to clean their act up. Do you really think the presence of a new sponsor willing to invest in them will bring the players to a higher plateau of presentation, sportsmanship, and dignity? It sure wasn't the case in 2004, when Hilton Hotels took a chance on men's pro pool.

How do you think Hilton Hotels felt after, on the first day of the first event of their new tour, Larry Nevel and Corey Deuel (in two different matches) unscrewed in mid-match, the latter reportedly to go golfing. As they say, you only get one chance to make a good first impression, and the men seem to get it wrong every time. Perhaps one day the men will take the business interests of their sponsors seriously by taking their sport seriously, but that day certainly hasn’t arrived, and doesn't appear to be coming anytime soon. And how much better is the UPA? As you know, New York fans love to watch Ginky compete. Well, last year, the UPA had two events in NYC. At the Big Apple Nine Ball Challenge, when Ginky drew Ron Wiseman, he won by forfeit because Wiseman didn't show up. Turned out Wiseman was included in both the draw and the Calcutta despite his absence from the players meeting, but he never even came to New York. Wonderful. Then, at the World Summit, Jeremy Jones unscrewed in mid-match against Ginky. These organizations and pros are not committed to their fans.

While I agree that if the men clean up their act, their sport is more sellable to potential sponsors, why should I think that a new tour would rein them in and keep them in check where all other national men's pool tours in recent memory have failed?

Once again, it comes down to that great word "unity". The men, who undermine each other on a very regular basis, through their behavior, show that they are not committed to each other's success, and the infusion of new money into their sport has never seemed to change this.

I suspect the only kind of sponsor that will ever have success with men's pool is that one that stands prepared to cut off all funds if the player's fail to conduct themselves properly.

Right now, I'd need better reasons than those provided to fund a new men's tour.

This is a case of the few undermining the efforts of the many in men's pool, but those few are never held accountable or disciplined by the many, which has long sent a very negative message to all associated with mens' pro pool.

As I have for decades, I'll continue to invest in pool, but I can't find enough reasons to invest in a new men's tour. I'd be more inclined to sponsor a local player whom I know to have a history of proper demeanor, etiquette, and sportsmanship, and proper respect for the game.
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Alright, alright I give, forget the tour idea. We need 100 people to go out and get $2 from 10 friends and sponsor Joe T on the new FL pro tour!!!!

Good morning and thanks for all this wonderful insight. I officially nominate sjm to be our player rep and disciplinarian.

I'm sure the Hilton Tour organizers wanted to help clean things up but they were asking players to leave home Sun-Thur for $20,000 added events with 64 players each spending $1,000-$1,500 in expenses. Not much incentive there. I want to create at least 2 tournaments per month with a very competitive point system which will help add excitement as well as cut down on forfiets and expenses. There are hundreds of guys that play pro speed that can't make it out to the week long pro events but our 2 day 64 player plan that traveling around the country will create demand and bring those players out. And if you think I'm going to let players hang around our events making us look bad you "gotta notha thing comin". (How do you sing on the internet?) I've sent more players, some friends, back out to their cars, hotels and walmart than I care to remember.

How about we do this or would you do this. I know I'm putting people on the spot when I ask them to go ask their friends and associates for $50 a month, so why don't we try something like blackjack suggested. Our indusrtry. Could we get 100 people to form a list of 10 Billiard clubs in their area that they think might be interested in seeing a growth spurt in pocket billiards. Our sales pitch would be "Do you think if Pool grew in popularity and was better organized, on tv more, that your business would increase more than this $60 a month?"
 
JAM said:
...when's it going to stop? Nobody knows.

Sadly, this just in: http://www.q-masters.com/masters.php

JAM
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Hi JAM, thats just so sad, and what I can't understand is it "Seems" to be coming from a Pro player who should know better.


There's been a lot of good ideas and passion displayed in this thread but the problem is seems be there for everybody to see.

If only all this passion could be directed at sorting this out. It seems like everyone knows the problem, bitches about it but nothing changes. Is there no way to resolve this in the interest of the sport?
 
How about $1 from every league player every week. That would be something like $200,000 a week and support Pro Pool quite easily.

I don't think I have ten friends that will pony up .50cts a day for a starving child much less $50/100 a month to fund pro pool players. They appreciate the fact that there are pro pool players but not enough to support them like that.

In my opinion, the way for the fan base to be able to grow pro pool is to have a shot at it. In other words some money from leagues and local/regional and national amateur tournaments should be flowing towards the pro side with the caveat that there is a well defined path for amateurs to "go pro".

It is very sad that a large number, maybe even a majority of, weekly pool league players don't know who most pro players are and apparently don't care. This, I believe is because there is hardly any connect there. It's like three worlds, leagues, tournaments and pro tournaments. At the APA last year I couldn't ask easy enough pool trivia questions to give away prizes. Hardly anyone even knew who the reigning World Champion is, men or women.

I think that it ought to be feasible to find a hundred people to donate a hundred a month to the cause. 100 people might be a bit much. I would love to be an investor in a public company dedicated to growing pool. I would love to see my investment pay off in financial returns and entertainment returns. Given the track record though I doubt that it will happen. I will gladly invest, IF there is an inital goal that MUST be met before any other activity is undertaken and IF the company is properly founded with a clear business plan and a board with proper bylaws.

Good luck Joe.

John Barton
 
JAM said:
...when's it going to stop? Nobody knows.

Sadly, this just in: http://www.q-masters.com/masters.php

JAM
Click to expand...

Sadly, this is ongoing because the players have all not BEEN PAID for past finishes at Barry's tournaments. How about cleaning it up there first?

It is BULLSHIT to literally kick out someone like Mika Immonen because he had the AUDACITY to ask for the money he earned.

I can't believe that any of you won't call Barry to task for this. I respect what Barry has done and have enjoyed the US Open trmendously. To continue to feud with the UPA over schedule dates when the players have not been paid from previous events is ludicrous though.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
Sadly, this is ongoing because the players have all not BEEN PAID for past finishes at Barry's tournaments. How about cleaning it up there first?
Click to expand...

John, I do agree that Danny Harriman and Mika Immonen should be paid for their participation in previous U.S. Opens. Knowing the expenses involved in just attending this event -- travel/lodging/food expenses and $500 entry fee -- it would seem to me like the right thing to do.

onepocketchump said:
It is BULLSHIT to literally kick out someone like Mika Immonen because he had the AUDACITY to ask for the money he earned.
Click to expand...

I was there at the Open and saw Mika Immonen AFTER he made his request. Again, it would seem prudent and logical to pay the man for his high finish. I'm sure he was stuck BIG TIME for that trip to the U.S. Open.

onepocketchump said:
I can't believe that any of you won't call Barry to task for this. I respect what Barry has done and have enjoyed the US Open tremendously. To continue to feud with the UPA over schedule dates when the players have not been paid from previous events is ludicrous though.
Click to expand...

John, if it was ONLY this one event which experienced scheduling conflicts with the UPA, I would understand your logic. However, the UPA scheduling conflicts do not only pertain to Behrman-produced tournaments, as I am sure you know.

As a matter of fact, I think this tournament was ALREADY in place with the Florida 9-Ball Tour, and the UPA may have seized the opportunity to have one stop on this tour sanctioned. I think this could have been coincidence, in reality.

I wish that Barry Behrman would just have the doggone tournament. Matter of fact, I think he'd get a BIGGER turnout than the UPA-sanctioned one in Florida. There are quite a few players on the East Coast who may not go to the UPA-sanctioned event in Florida and could fill up the player roster for the Behrman tournament in Norfolk, Virginia.

There are definitely a couple schools of thought when it comes to the UPA. Either you're with 'em or you're not. Or if you're like some players I know, you just want to play pool ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD and escape all of the political UPA-imposed bureaucratic red tape.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Amazing!
I'm starting to think that Blackjack is some sort of psychic.
This is just to funny.

SUPERSTAR
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No, I'm not a psychic. By now this is very predictable behavior. One of the first things that should be done is for the UPA to release their tour schedule one year in advance - and they should stick to it. This way other promoters would not have this problem. All they are doing is waiting to see who they can sabotage next. Pay attention Joe, this is what I was talking about.
 
Joe T said:
Alright, alright I give, forget the tour idea. We need 100 people to go out and get $2 from 10 friends and sponsor Joe T on the new FL pro tour!!!!
Click to expand...

At last a cause I truly believe in. Joe, if you're ever coming to the NYC area, PM me first, and I'll arrange to hook up with you. I would be willing to considering partially sponsoring you on the FL tour.
 
sjm said:
At last a cause I truly believe in. Joe, if you're ever coming to the NYC area, PM me first, and I'll arrange to hook up with you. I would be willing to considering partially sponsoring you on the FL tour.
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Thanks Buddy I'll remember that. In the meantime I think I'll start a new thread an try to create a nice list of current billiard rooms across the country.
 
Pro Player

I, for one, would love to see a 10-ball tour. I agree on numerous points made on this thread but I have a few points of my own.
1) All of the regional tours that I know of are owned by individuals and are moneymakers for those that continue to hold onto them. How could we possibly unite them underneath another organization unless they were bought out?
2) The UPA is doing the best it can at the moment. There are always problems with organizations and from what I have seen on tour the powers that be do listen to the players and try to correct issues that come up. An example would be the walkouts by players at a couple of events. That issue has been dealt with and any player that does that gets penalized for it. I haven't seen it happen since the rule change to prevent it. Anyone with suggestions for improving the tour should submit them to the UPA directly.
3) The Hilton tour was a great idea but not really meant for professional pool. I went to both of them and while they were great tournaments the $$ added was based on room nights and pro players can't afford to keep paying for a room once they are eliminated from an event. There is a plan to possibly use the amateur tours for the Hilton events.
4) While I agree that unity has always been a problem I don't see anyone in the UPA purposely trying to interfere with other tours. In most cases, the sponsor gets to set the dates for the tournament and it sucks that the Predator UPA event and the Masters conflicted. I don't believe it was done on purpose.
5) What I would really like to see is all of the players give the UPA a chance. All of the fighting over who's right and wrong needs to stop and right now the UPA is the Men's Pro organization. If you would like to support the Men's tour that is where you should start. I joined the UPA not because I thought it was a great organization but because I wanted to support the effort to get a tour. Anyone who aspires to be a pro or already has the game to be on tour should support the tour and get out and play. People post that the Hilton tour failed yet if all the people that pointed fingers went to play or watch it would be a successful tour.

Overall, I, like Joe Tucker, would like to see a full tour where the players have the opportunity to make decent money and where you can pick what events you can go to. I also believe that 10-ball is a better and more professional game than 9-ball and I hope to some events in the future. The past doesn't predict the future unless you live in the past.
 
Chris_Lynch said:
I, for one, would love to see a 10-ball tour. .
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The Florida Pro Tour will be playing 10 ball this season starting April 23rd. Now is the chance to see how well 10 ball will be received. Since Charlie Williams has played on the tour the past two years it must be an approved tour by the UPA. So let's see how many pros will play in it and and if the 64 slots get filled.

If the pros fail to show up then one must find what the underlying problem is. Too far to travel? Not enough money added? ($7,000 per stop). It is not not prohibited by the UPA since CW plays on it, but then they do not actively endorse it either. It would be nice if the UPA BOD would encourage their players to play on it.

What reasons do the pros who do not attend it give? Are they just not interested? Can't afford the fee and travel? Just do not want to support another tour? Has anybody asked them why they do not show up?

This is the 3rd year of the tour and the Seminole Tribe has been backing them. But what is the incentive for them to continue doing so if the pros don't care to show up? They get noting in return that I am aware of. I believe the added would have been more this year had the tour been filled last year. But that just wasn't the case. Hopefully this year will be better.

Jake
 
I did print out the schedule for the Florida tour in hopes of getting to a couple of events. I can't speak for all the pros but if I don't make any of the events it is because of 1) Work 2) Wife and/or 3) Money. I do hope to make some though.
 
jjinfla said:
The Florida Pro Tour will be playing 10 ball this season starting April 23rd. Now is the chance to see how well 10 ball will be received. Since Charlie Williams has played on the tour the past two years it must be an approved tour by the UPA. So let's see how many pros will play in it and and if the 64 slots get filled.

If the pros fail to show up then one must find what the underlying problem is. Too far to travel? Not enough money added? ($7,000 per stop). It is not not prohibited by the UPA since CW plays on it, but then they do not actively endorse it either. It would be nice if the UPA BOD would encourage their players to play on it.

What reasons do the pros who do not attend it give? Are they just not interested? Can't afford the fee and travel? Just do not want to support another tour? Has anybody asked them why they do not show up?

This is the 3rd year of the tour and the Seminole Tribe has been backing them. But what is the incentive for them to continue doing so if the pros don't care to show up? They get noting in return that I am aware of. I believe the added would have been more this year had the tour been filled last year. But that just wasn't the case. Hopefully this year will be better.

Jake
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I think that Florida 10-Ball tour sounds GREAT! God bless the Seminole Tribe of Florida, too, for supporting pool. Those monies added are the HIGHEST of all the regional tours (IMO). Is it really the monies added that is the deterrent for some players NOT to travel the distance to attend these events? I think not.

Now, there do seem to be quite a few high-caliber pro players who now live in Florida. Let's see, who's hanging their hat in Florida now? Rob Saez, Buddy Hall (I think), Rodney Morris, Thorsten Hohmann (I think), Charlie Williams, Tony Crosby, Tommy Kennedy, David Howard, Johnny Archer lives close by -- and I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of 'em.

Although the Touring Pro list on the UPA website has not been updated in some time -- List of UPA Touring Pros on UPA website -- it would be interesting to see how many of those players on that list are employed full time in a non-pool-related field. In other words, how many of the professional players only shoot pool for a living? I think therein may be why some pool players, aspiring and professional, are unable to attend every event on the tournament trail. JMHO, FWIW!

That Florida Pro Tour is most likely the highest-paying regional tour out there. I cannot imagine why it would not fill up. You Floridians are lucky ducks!

JAM
 
I just want to point something out, because I don't think anyone else has yet. I believe the Camel Tour had some 10-ball events, and they failed miserably. The fact is, the general public doesn't like the game, and neither do most pro players.

A better tour idea, would be 7-ball, but without the ball in hand rule after missing. Eliminating that rule would result in more defensive play, and difficult defensive play. Because with less balls on the table, playing a safety isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do.

There's another two cents from me, and it's my 3rd post on this topic. So that's six cents all together. Only $49.94 more to go.
 
JAM said:
John, I do agree that Danny Harriman and Mika Immonen should be paid for their participation in previous U.S. Opens. Knowing the expenses involved in just attending this event -- travel/lodging/food expenses and $500 entry fee -- it would seem to me like the right thing to do.



I was there at the Open and saw Mika Immonen AFTER he made his request. Again, it would seem prudent and logical to pay the man for his high finish. I'm sure he was stuck BIG TIME for that trip to the U.S. Open.



John, if it was ONLY this one event which experienced scheduling conflicts with the UPA, I would understand your logic. However, the UPA scheduling conflicts do not only pertain to Behrman-produced tournaments, as I am sure you know.

As a matter of fact, I think this tournament was ALREADY in place with the Florida 9-Ball Tour, and the UPA may have seized the opportunity to have one stop on this tour sanctioned. I think this could have been coincidence, in reality.

I wish that Barry Behrman would just have the doggone tournament. Matter of fact, I think he'd get a BIGGER turnout than the UPA-sanctioned one in Florida. There are quite a few players on the East Coast who may not go to the UPA-sanctioned event in Florida and could fill up the player roster for the Behrman tournament in Norfolk, Virginia.

There are definitely a couple schools of thought when it comes to the UPA. Either you're with 'em or you're not. Or if you're like some players I know, you just want to play pool ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD and escape all of the political UPA-imposed bureaucratic red tape.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
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My beef is with Barry's ethics here. Just that. Pay the players and be done with it. Barry doesn't want to put anything in escrow so that the prize fund is guaranteed. I am sure that many, many players want to go to Barry's events, especially the US Open. I know people who don't play as good as I do who plan to play in the US Open. What if they got some rolls and ended up placing fairly high and didn't get paid? It's ridiculous to bitch and moan about other people scheduling a tournament to spite you when you are the root cause.

I don't agree with all the moves the UPA makes. THe UPA is also not just Charlie Williams anymore. For example, the fact that they won't allow women to participate pisses me off. But beyond that I am positive that the UPA would love to have Barry's tournaments on the calendar as sanctioned events. Sanctioned meaning the participants are GUARANTEED to get paid. I am sure that the players would love to be able to go to the US Open knowing that they are going to get paid.

So it's a pissing contest between Barry and the UPA. Either way the players are going to go play somewhere and at least with the UPA event they know that they are getting paid. This kind of action is the primary reason that the UPA exists. Will it survive? Who knows? One thing is certain though, in the absence of something "better" it's the only game in town.

John
 
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