B Player vs. Pro speed

bbb said:
Originally Posted by bbb
curious you guys opinion of this
if as the b player you are trying to test yourself
play him
you get to break and get ball in hand
as a b you shouldnt be beating the ghost
yet should get out or have a combo often enough to get you back for more
once you get into a safety battle the pro should win and be out
so you probably will still lose but you get to keep trying to get out and/or have the opportunity to play the first safety

a bump for comments please
no matter what you say i can take and expect it:smile:
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The pro would probably still win.

However I expect most pros would not give that game. The pro would have to wait for the B to make a mistake in every rack. The B player starts with the upper hand in every single rack. I expect a pro would rather be in control and have to make a mistake to lose, as opposed to giving control to the weaker player and waiting for an error (especially if the weaker player can still run a rack, like a B with ball in hand).
 
poormanintexas said:
I have a general question?

What kinda of spot should a pro speed player give to a
B rated (APA SL 5 or 6) in order to be a fair game say
for a buck a rack without getting slaughtered?

ie....Would it be wild 6 and last two, wild 5 out and the breaks..

I ask this because of the vast knowledge base we have here..;)
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Iam a B player b+ player.

I played lots of matches with pro speed players, T.Vanover has me stuck good playing him with the 5 and breaks over the years

Bobby Legg another top player, i have him stuck over the years with the 5 and breaks.

Vanover and Legg must of played over 20 matches of even 9ball over the years and they were very evenly matched, neither one has the other one stuck no more then 2 sets, and they had so many awesom matches!

I played Wilke with the 6 and winner breaks on my table and beat him easily, then i played him in another pool hall the same game and he beat me.

Slivka beat me the only time we played, i got the 5 and breaks and he beat me bad.

McCreesh and i broke even on my table in Dundalk with me getting the 6 and winner breaks.

So i would say if a b player plays a pro speed player, he would need the 5 and breaks to have a chance!
 
I am not a pro by any stretch but I play a few weaker B players where I have to bank a ball each inning. It is tougher then it sounds because a lot of times if they miss it is the 7,8, or 9 so I have to bank [no kicks] one of the last two or three balls. If I make the bank early and then miss my runout then I have to wait and see if he misses a ball and then start over with having to make a bank. If I make the 9 without banking it in the right pocket or it is buried in the pocket and I have to make it, it spots up with no ball in hand for my opponent. I usually play it on a 9 foot Pro-Am so at least there is room but I don't think I would offer that game for a ton of money.
 
Koop said:
Freddie,

Can you explain the 3-1 on shots?

Koop = not a gambler :D
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I get to miss thee times before he shoots. It's how someone might play against his kids.

Freddie <~~~ it's about the same matchup
 
TSW said:
The pro would probably still win.

However I expect most pros would not give that game. The pro would have to wait for the B to make a mistake in every rack. The B player starts with the upper hand in every single rack. I expect a pro would rather be in control and have to make a mistake to lose, as opposed to giving control to the weaker player and waiting for an error (especially if the weaker player can still run a rack, like a B with ball in hand).
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....thanks
 
There's a real science to giving up weight

richiebalto said:
Iam a B player b+ player.

I played lots of matches with pro speed players, T.Vanover has me stuck good playing him with the 5 and breaks over the years

Bobby Legg another top player, i have him stuck over the years with the 5 and breaks.

Vanover and Legg must of played over 20 matches of even 9ball over the years and they were very evenly matched, neither one has the other one stuck no more then 2 sets, and they had so many awesom matches!

I played Wilke with the 6 and winner breaks on my table and beat him easily, then i played him in another pool hall the same game and he beat me.

Slivka beat me the only time we played, i got the 5 and breaks and he beat me bad.

McCreesh and i broke even on my table in Dundalk with me getting the 6 and winner breaks.

So i would say if a b player plays a pro speed player, he would need the 5 and breaks to have a chance!
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That sounds about right, it just depends on how tight the pockets are. The amount of "weight" a Professional Level player can give is relative to the equipment too. The bigger the pockets, the more valuable the break is going to be.

There's a real science to giving up weight, I made a living doing it for many years. When I'm at my peak I can give advanced players the 5/7 and the break. For me to win at this game they have to feel like they're playing "The Ghost".
 
First of all "Life is not FAIR!"
second-since it's a buck a game-practice has to be the goal-so figure out
a way to learn something.
last, but not least, CJ's comment about tight pockets is very important.
Not just pocket size but all conditions of play can change the game.

Interesting thread:)
 
CJ Wiley said:
That sounds about right, it just depends on how tight the pockets are. The amount of "weight" a Professional Level player can give is relative to the equipment too. The bigger the pockets, the more valuable the break is going to be.

Boy that is surely the truth, Vanover and i played on a very tite table every time we played(same table) and it was very hard for me to run out to the 5 ball .

But i still thought that i could run out 3-5 out of 10 games and he wouldnt be able to over come that, boy was i wrong, i didnt run 2 racks out of ten, once Tom got a shot i lost that game everytime.

Now playing B.LEGG we played on easier tables and i was able to break and run 5 balls much easier!

You are great CJ, THANKS FOR STAYING AROUND, I really appreciate your knowledge and know how about pool!
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If an apa 6 is a "b player" then to make it remotely fair the pro is going to have to give up a ton of weight.

The true orange crush/5-out or something. Otherwise it isn't going to be close.

3 or 4 to 1 on the money is a joke. The B player will be lucky to win one game total playing even ball handicap against a pro player. Give him a few wild balls and he has something of a chance.


I think a lot of people really underestimate how well pro caliber players really play.
 
elvicash said:
The pro could give the B player whatever if he was motivated to play. I doubt a buck a game is going to get their attention. And the thing is the pro will control the game/action the B player will not be getting many good looks.

I saw Bartram who is not a top tier pro more like a third tier pro (top 50 or so) give a local player the last 5 on a bar box after I left the player was getting the last 7 and still lost a decent chunk of change multiple thousands. I think the pro's control the game and then they get into the head of decent B players. They break people down with relentless shotmaking and good decisions. When a B player is broken down they will take flyers and then it will only get worse.

Wild 6,7,8 will help if you are on a bar box, big table I doubt there is a spot that sounds fair to the ear that will be enough that is just the difference between a real pro and a B player.
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Very true about about a bplayer breaking down wiht good play. playing On a bar box would aready be a SPOT for the b player. IDK any b players who cant run consecutive racks consistently on a bar box
 
obclassicut said:
Very true about about a bplayer breaking down wiht good play. playing On a bar box would aready be a SPOT for the b player. IDK any b players who cant run consecutive racks consistently on a bar box[/QUOTE]

What would you call consistently? Say I am a B player and broke 10 racks.

Just curious because I dont think a B level players breaks and runs consecutive racks consistently at all.

Also don't think an APA 5-6 is a B player. I didnt read the whole thread but was this thought readily accepted??
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it's best to NOT watch the pro's body, just the cue ball and table

alphadog said:
First of all "Life is not FAIR!"
second-since it's a buck a game-practice has to be the goal-so figure out
a way to learn something.
last, but not least, CJ's comment about tight pockets is very important.
Not just pocket size but all conditions of play can change the game.

Interesting thread:)
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Yes, and then there's the deciding factor (in many cases), the "FF" - The Faint Factor.....the truth about most of the games I give up is that, on paper, I have the worst of the game. However, if the "short stop's" game doesn't have a solid foundation, one they can rely on under extreme "heat," they will faint.

This is the reason I'm so confident about some of my techniques because they have a built in "no faint" factor. Spinning your cue ball unnecessarily and using different speeds and "aiming systems" will lead to fainting under pressure. The key to "holding up" under pressure is a solid foundation where you are stoking the cue ball consistently every time, no matter what the upcoming shot......STICK to YOUR Game, don't let the "Pro" make you deviate, because sometimes we're "tricky".

When I'm giving up a lot of weight sometimes I look like I'm extending my follow through every time to entice my opponent to do the same....DO NOT fall for these tricks, it's best to NOT watch the pro's body, just the cue ball and table....the body will throw you off if he's a better player because you will subconsciously be trying to "pick up" something to use to your advantage, and often times this will backfire against you. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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CJ Wiley said:
Yes, and then there's the deciding factor (in many cases), the "FF" - The Faint Factor.....the truth about most of the games I give up is that, on paper, I have the worst of the game. However, if the "short stop's" game doesn't have a solid foundation, one they can rely on under extreme "heat," they will faint.

This is the reason I'm so confident about some of my techniques because they have a built in "no faint" factor. Spinning your cue ball unnecessarily and using different speeds and "aiming systems" will lead to fainting under pressure. The key to "holding up" under pressure is a solid foundation where you are stoking the cue ball consistently every time, no matter what the upcoming shot......STICK to YOUR Game, don't let the "Pro" make you deviate, because sometimes we're "tricky".

When I'm giving up a lot of weight sometimes I look like I'm extending my follow through every time to entice my opponent to do the same....DO NOT fall for these tricks, it's best to NOT watch the pro's body, just the cue ball and table....the body will throw you off if he's a better player because you will subconsciously be trying to "pick up" something to use to your advantage, and often times this will backfire against you. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Golden information right here. Thanks Cj for sharing, its great to know what a pro is thinking/doing when matching up.
 
When I'm giving up a lot of weight sometimes I look like I'm extending my follow through every time to entice my opponent to do the same...
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haha, now THAT's living up to the name! I'd never even think of something like that. Who's gonna copy my stroke?
 
MSchaffer said:
Tournament finals at College Billiards in San Diego. Announcer states they are both 'A' players. Race to 5 (9 ball).

How would you rate these 2?

College Billards finals
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I'm at work, so I couldn't suffer through the entire thing, but I made it to the 22min mark. What I think is..

1. This better be their B/C game, because the only A side I'm seeing is some of their safety attempts. Though a lot are failing by a small margin, they've got the right idea.

2. '...and it don't stop.' He must've had this match in mind when he put on that shirt, because at times I felt like it would never end.

3. When I visit my brother down that way, I know where to go for an easy 'A' game.. one where I can bring my B game. Never thought I'd look forward to playing an A from Cali.

There's gotta be some kinda catch to this. Were they playing all night long and just tired? Are these ratings only from the local college? Can't be their average game.. I wouldn't believe it if you told me either of those guys are an A if they play like that regularly. I'd say 6/6 in APA, give or take a point.
 
getting a handicap, just pay attention to the cue ball and the table

CreeDo said:
haha, now THAT's living up to the name! I'd never even think of something like that. Who's gonna copy my stroke?
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This is a very little know fact that a player getting a spot will pay closer attention to the better player than if he was playing someone "even".

There's several styles we can play if we want to and a couple of them can be misleading. Sometimes I just play the same angle all the time with no regard to "being on the right side" of the ball. This is really confusing if someone is watching "trying to learn something," because it often looks like I'm running out backwards.

Just a word to the wise, if you are getting a handicap, just pay attention to the cue ball and the table when you're not shooting. It will keep you from getting "swayed" "into playing a style you may not be comfortable with. Playing your own game and hitting the cue ball as consistently as possible it the key, this means speed, angle and cue ball target as well. "The Game is the Teacher'
 
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