Break shot question!

[VIProfessor]

I was playing some straights last night, and I was on a 42-ball run and was playing perfectly--going through the racks the right way, landing perfect on the break balls and feeling like this was going to be the big 100-ball run. I got to the break ball, and noticed that the tangent line was taking me EXACTLY between the corner ball and the second ball, and the OB was close enough to the rack to allow for no adjustment with draw or follow to change where the cue ball would hit the rack (the cut angle, BTW, was just about a half ball hit). I tried anyway, however, and played with a little draw--big mistake. I hit the top part of that second ball and flew uptable to get frozen on the head rail.

How would the experts play such a break shot?

 

[Irish634]

I am not an expert, but could you set this up on a CueTable?

Thanks,
Craig

 

[selftaut]

High with a little inside is what I have seen most use on that shot, medium speed sends the cb to back rail then side rail and out to center table.

 

[steev]

this seems close.

-s

 

[selftaut]

Thanks steev , if thats the shot then definately lots of follow to stretch the tangent line coming off the 10 ball to the back rail , some inside will bring it 2 rails and out to center table.

 

[Blackjack]

High inside at about 11 o'clock - will cause the cue ball to whip to the bottom rail - out to the side rail and back to the center of the table.

 

[eales]

Inside?

Sorry, but I am confused. Wouldn't high-inside for this cut require hitting the cue ball closer to 1?

Jim Eales

 

[VIProfessor]

Sorry guys, I mean the head corner ball

Sorry if anyone got the wrong impression. The tangent line leads to the split between the HEAD corner ball and the second ball. I'll try to demonstrate on Wei. Hope it works.

Whoops! On the next post--the Wei button doesn't do what I thought it does. I'm off to master the cuetable attachment!

 

[VIProfessor]

OK, let's see if I did it right.

CueTable Help

As noted in the original post, I applied just a hint of draw, because I didn't dare play center ball, and I ended up frozen to the head rail. Could I have just played with stun follow, hoping to glance off the top of the second ball, or should I have just stroked it easier? Lord, I wish I was in a pool town where I could get these nuances of the game live from better players!

 

[VIProfessor]

OK, let's see if I did it right.

CueTable Help

As noted in the original post, I applied just a hint of draw, because I didn't dare play center ball, and I ended up frozen to the head rail. Could I have just played with stun follow, hoping to glance off the top of the second ball, or should I have just stroked it easier? Lord, I wish I was in a pool town where I could get these nuances of the game live from better players!

Edit: LOL! How did the 9-ball end up there??

 

[3andstop]

I like a little inside with a sort of stun stroke. The inside will (at least the way I feel the shot) help prevent the cue ball from eating into the rack or taking the draw and rolling off the rack uptable faster.

 

[JohnnyP]

Since a little draw got you to the head rail, why not experiment, and see how much it takes to come back to the center of the table?

 

[Williebetmore]

VIP,
I have been told to hit this with a touch of left, and a touch of draw. The issue for you is that even a slight "touch of draw" will cause the cue ball to react VERY differently when the cue ball hits a ball with a lot of weight behind it. The amount of draw that bounces the cue ball to center table is ONLY SLIGHTLY different than the amount that takes the cue ball to it's death on the head rail. Your strike must be extremely precise. If you set up the shot 10 times and try to draw to the head rail, and 10 times to try to draw to the center; you will see that the 2 shots are painfully similar. The angle of the hit on the break shot also affects this (more angle = relatively more speed for whitey after contact) - even a slight difference in angle will yield remarkably different results.

In addition, if you hit the bottom of the top ball first; the results are quite different from when whitey hits the top of the second ball first. A hit that strikes both top and second balls simultaneously is also different. Do 10 racks of each of these 3 shots (mark table carefully for position of whitey, break ball, and racked balls) and you will be an expert - not that demanding for a pool fanatic such as yourself. Since you often cannot change whitey's path into the rack; you must become expert at predicting; though even the experts are often surprised. It is said that Gene Nagy was the best at the world in assessing these break shot issues - but I believe it is an art rather than a science - I could be wrong.

 

[selftaut]

Sorry if anyone got the wrong impression. The tangent line leads to the split between the HEAD corner ball and the second ball. I'll try to demonstrate on Wei. Hope it works.

Whoops! On the next post--the Wei button doesn't do what I thought it does. I'm off to master the cuetable attachment!

OK , in that case I would use a tip of draw with a touch of outside , and probably a light speed to get left about a foot above the rack , should have a shot to either corners.

 

[CreeDo]

It's hard to say. In that other thread it was mentioned that if the tangent line sends the cueball into the crack between 2 balls it may scratch (I think the phrase was "touch the crack and you'll scratch your ass" or something), and conventional wisdom is that when there's very little room between the break ball and rack, it's a good idea to draw. I think you made the right decision, you avoided the natural scratch and left yourself above the rack and probably near the center of the table. Less speed or a hair closer to center might have left you below the head string.

Actually, at least one well known player (was it fleming?) would always play shots like this with a LOT of speed, planning on sending the cueball up to the head rail and then bouncing back down towards the center. The more I think about that, the more I like it, because you almost can't hit it too hard and there's no natural scratch.

 

[VIProfessor]

It's hard to say. In that other thread it was mentioned that if the tangent line sends the cueball into the crack between 2 balls it may scratch (I think the phrase was "touch the crack and you'll scratch your ass" or something), and conventional wisdom is that when there's very little room between the break ball and rack, it's a good idea to draw. I think you made the right decision, you avoided the natural scratch and left yourself above the rack and probably near the center of the table. Less speed or a hair closer to center might have left you below the head string.

Actually, at least one well known player (was it fleming?) would always play shots like this with a LOT of speed, planning on sending the cueball up to the head rail and then bouncing back down towards the center. The more I think about that, the more I like it, because you almost can't hit it too hard and there's no natural scratch.

I was thinking about that option today, and I like it! BTW, I took WBM's suggestion and practiced that break shot a few times, and I got good results with just a hair (even less than a touch) of draw. As long as you don't get stuck to the rack, you're fine.

This is why I love this forum. If you stay on this board and don't improve your game, something is definitely wrong!

 

[Blackjack]

I was thinking about that option today, and I like it! BTW, I took WBM's suggestion and practiced that break shot a few times, and I got good results with just a hair (even less than a touch) of draw. As long as you don't get stuck to the rack, you're fine.

This is why I love this forum. If you stay on this board and don't improve your game, something is definitely wrong!

I also tried WBM's suggestion and added a bit of a snap to the stroke and the cue ball came to the side rail and out. Great advice, Willie! I love this forum!

 

[Williebetmore]

... I took WBM's suggestion and practiced that break shot a few times, and I got good results with just a hair (even less than a touch) of draw.

VIP,
I'm glad someone else sees this the same way. It is a VERY SMALL difference; and it does not take but a very slight below center hit to get back away from the pack - any more than that (and we are talking only a millimeter lower on the cue ball) and there you find yourself back up on the head rail.

Having said that; I will also point out that I personally am opposed to the theory that you can draw strongly off the pack, back whitey up to the head rail and back out. I have rarely seen anyone get whitey out of the "kitchen" with this technique. I hope sjm will weigh in on this point - I believe the old school philosophy is correct in avoiding this type of play.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

VIP,
I'm glad someone else sees this the same way. It is a VERY SMALL difference; and it does not take but a very slight below center hit to get back away from the pack - any more than that (and we are talking only a millimeter lower on the cue ball) and there you find yourself back up on the head rail.

Having said that; I will also point out that I personally am opposed to the theory that you can draw strongly off the pack, back whitey up to the head rail and back out. I have rarely seen anyone get whitey out of the "kitchen" with this technique. I hope sjm will weigh in on this point - I believe the old school philosophy is correct in avoiding this type of play.

Willie,

It's funny that you bring up that point. I was practicing the other night and that very situation came up. Like you and most others I also subscribe to the philosophy that drawing off the stack up to the head rail and back down is a fool's errand. However, when I was playing I hit the breakshot a little too hard and with a little too much draw and it did exactly that. Granted I did have fantastic shape after the breakshot (balls spread wide and whitey in the center of the table), but in my opinion it's far too unpredictable a shot to intend to play on a regular basis. In fact all the times I've tried to play that shot it hasn't worked out that way. What a silly game this can be.

 

[Mike_Mason]

Why when I was in stroke...

Funny that we're discussing probably the most desirable break shot position we could want...

Why there was a time when I could smack that almost like a 9-ball break...blast the rack open...and the cue ball would give a little hop and die in front of the foot spot...

Or I could blast it and draw the cue ball on a straight line to mid head rail and back down to center table...

And then I grew up...and now I would probably give a 20% attempt at my first option...give it a fair stroke and stun the cue ball to not travel much...should have a few shots to choose from...

Mike