can't get a refund [long rant warning!]

[hangemhigh]

Doug, this is not a he said, you said, issue. I would hope you apologize to Mr. Crockett and work out a repayment plan. This will end the controversy immediately. Understand this advice is given in your best interest, and I hope you can resolve this without further embarrassment.

 

[Masayoshi]

From the emailsit sounds like the OP is just being a dick about it. Sure the guy selling the cues made a mistake by spending the money before the goods were delivered, but that's just bad business practice not dishonesty (and how many small time cue makers do you know that are really good business men, honestly). Shit happens, deal with it. A few weeks is nothing to get your panties all up in a bunch about. If it turns out to be longer than that, THEN you can claim he is trying to cheat you.

 

[patrickcues]

Doug, this is not a he said, you said, issue. I would hope you apologize to Mr. Crockett and work out a repayment plan. This will end the controversy immediately. Understand this advice is given in your best interest, and I hope you can resolve this without further embarrassment.

Tommy:

Thank you for the advice. I have apoligized to Bill in my emails! I also did so on the phone when this first took place! I will do it again here.

Bill I am very Sorry that this has happened!

Tommy:
I also posted in my other thread when Jay asked me if I had refunded the money I told him that I have the other cue on here sold pending payment. That as soon as I get paid from that cue I will issue a refund to Bill! I have never been dishonest about this to Bill or anyone else as far that goes. I offered ways to make this right. I told Bill on the phone when I called him about this that I would make it right anyway he choose! I am doing this just not at the speed that he would like. I operate on income from building and selling cues on here. This all took place 3 days ago. I cant believe that I am being dragged through the mudd after 3 days. Not even being giving the opertuninty to make it right first! If I was trying to rip Bill off I could have sold you the cue when you asked about it in a pm that same day this happened! My responce to your pm was
( this cue is no longer for sale) give me a call and I will explain!

I appreciate your advice and I do value your opinion as I do many others on here!
I really dont understand being drug through the mudd without knowing all the facts! Not refering to you Tommy! I am refering to others on here!

Bill I hope that you accept my apology! I am truely very sorry that this has happened! I will refund your money as quickly as I possible can!

 

[saddlebow]

thanks again

three things in response:
1. thanks for publishing my address and phone number on the internet. Nice touch.
2. you forgot a couple of emails, here's one of them:
Begin forwarded message:

From: ROBERT PATRICK <patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com>
Date: September 18, 2009 9:53:39 AM PDT
To: bill crockett <bill@crockett.net>
Subject: Re: pic

Bill:

Feel free to do what you need to do to make yourself feel better about this! Like I said before I have been honest with you about what had happened here. You want to talk about being self righteous, if you would get you head out of you ass long enough to see that this was an accident! It wasnt done on purpose! Like I said, you do what you need to do! Oh yea Bill I will never STFU!

3. If anyone else thinks I'm being a dick about this, send me your $1235 so I can tell you to take your head out of your ass while you wait to get it back. Masayoshi, since you already have my address, you know where to send the money....

 

[manwon]

From the emailsit sounds like the OP is just being a dick about it. Sure the guy selling the cues made a mistake by spending the money before the goods were delivered, but that's just bad business practice not dishonesty (and how many small time cue makers do you know that are really good business men, honestly). Shit happens, deal with it. A few weeks is nothing to get your panties all up in a bunch about. If it turns out to be longer than that, THEN you can claim he is trying to cheat you.

Partner, maybe you don't understand cue building or maybe you did not read the rest of this thread, or what ever. However, first let me tell you, the cue was for sale for almost two weeks before it sold. When a cue is put up sale in most cases everyone normally assumes that it is completed unless it is advertised differently and this cue wasn't.

Next, pins do not come loose so quickly unless they were not glued in the first place and this all gets back to checking a cue out before you post it up for sale, and the same go's for checking the fit of the cues shafts.

Doug, I do not mean this as anything disrespectful to you personally we all make mistakes, but in this case the buyer is completely correct, so just admit you made a mistake give him his money and on to the next project, anything else is foolish.

JIMO

 

[patrickcues]

three things in response:
1. thanks for publishing my address and phone number on the internet. Nice touch.
2. you forgot a couple of emails, here's one of them:
Begin forwarded message:

From: ROBERT PATRICK <patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com>
Date: September 18, 2009 9:53:39 AM PDT
To: bill crockett <bill@crockett.net>
Subject: Re: pic

Bill:

Feel free to do what you need to do to make yourself feel better about this! Like I said before I have been honest with you about what had happened here. You want to talk about being self righteous, if you would get you head out of you ass long enough to see that this was an accident! It wasnt done on purpose! Like I said, you do what you need to do! Oh yea Bill I will never STFU!

3. If anyone else thinks I'm being a dick about this, send me your $1235 so I can tell you to take your head out of your ass while you wait to get it back. Masayoshi, since you already have my address, you know where to send the money....

Bill:

Sorry about the address and phone number I deleted it out. I did not realize it was in there! I apoligize! You will have a refund coming to you next week. I am waiting payment for the other cue I have posted on here.

 

[patrickcues]

Partner, maybe you don't understand cue building or maybe you did not read the rest of this thread, or what ever. However, first let me tell you, the cue was for sale for almost two weeks before it sold. When a cue is put up sale in most cases everyone normally assumes that it is completed unless it is advertised differently and this cue wasn't.

Next, pins do not come loose so quickly unless they were not glued in the first place and this all gets back to checking a cue out before you post it up for sale, and the same go's for checking the fit of the cues shafts.

Doug, I do not mean this as anything disrespectful to you personally we all make mistakes, but in this case the buyer is completely correct, so just admit you made a mistake give him his money and on to the next project, anything else is foolish.

JIMO

Craig:

I am going to refund his money. I told him I needed a week or 2 at most to get the cash to send back to him. The pin was glued in, I just didnt use enough. If I had I would have this problem.

No disrepect taken!

 

[jay helfert]

I just got wind of this a short time ago otherwise I would have posted a lot quicker here.
When I was getting this cue ready to be shipped out while re-checking to make sure all was good. I noticed that the joint pin was loose. So I took it out! I cleared the hole out rand a tap down in it. I mixed up up some epoxy put a dime size amount in the hole and a little on threads. When I screwed the joint pin back into the cue. I found where it had hydaulic out of the forearm. No mind that this cue is finished and I discovered the joint pin was loose. I imediatley call Bill. He was taking a stress test because he was having surgery next week. He said he would call me back! He did! I explained to him what had happened. He was not happy. I offered 3 ways to take care of this.
1st. Was to refund his money. 2nd. I would build him another cue of his choice. 3 rd another cue that I have for sale on here. His choice! His choose to get a refund. That is not a problem I told him. I also explained to him that I would need a week or 2 at the most to get the cash back to him. I explained that I had already purchased some more supplies with his money that is why I couldnt refund that day. I agree with some of you I should not have done that. I didnt see having any problems with his cue! My mistake! I sent him pics of this cue to him and I also posted it up in (ask the cuemaker section) looking for some opinions on what I can so with this cue now!
I have never screwed anyone here or anywhere else. I may have been slow about getting cues finished. But I try to keep in touch and let them know what is going on!

Now I am attatching copies of the emails from both of us.


no sweat, let me know next week.
thnx
bc
On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:47 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:

> Bill:
>
> Yes! Sorry I have been out of the shop this weekend and forgot to let you know. I will be shipping your cue out on Tuesday afternoon.
>
> I will send over tracking info when I ship.
>
> Thanks
> DOUG
>
> --- On Sat, 9/12/09, Bill Crockett <wec@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Crockett <wec@mac.com>
> Subject: follow up
> To: patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com
> Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 1:30 PM
>
> Doug:
> I assume that you got the check by now. If you have not, please let me know asap so I can put a trace on it with fedex.
> If you did receive it, let me know when you ship and give me the details so I can track it.
> Please ship to :
>
> bc


What is this supposed to show me? And I still don't understand why you discovered this AFTER advertising the cue for sale for over a month.
????
bc
On Sep 16, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:

>
> <P1012623.JPG>

Doug:
The first one of them I sent the pictures to agrees that the cue is cracked, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
I'm not very pleased that I'm stuck essentially making a loan to you, but you were straight about the condition of the cue. It won't do me any good at this point to wonder about any of the rest of how this all came about at the last minute, although I can't help but think I'm the only one surprised here.
I trust you'll pay me at your earliest opportunity. You don't give me any other choice.
Bill Crockett
On Sep 16, 2009, at 7:09 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:

> Bill:
>
> Did you get the pic I sent over to you? Now do you believe what I am telling you is the truth? I hope so!! I could have very easily passed this off as mineral in the forearm. But I didnt because that is bad business. Like I said I am not trying to rip you off or anything like. I offered you a couple ways to solve this. You choose to get a refund. That is not a problem at all. It will take me a couple weeks to get it send it back to you.. Like I said before I am a small business. I purchased more wood when I cashed your check. So I dont have the money to send to you right now. I will soon!! I am very sorry for the inconvienence to you.
>
> I amnot sure who the cue makers was that you spoke to. They are more than welcome to call me. I am POSSITIVE that they have done this before at some time or another throughout there carreer!!
>
> Thank you !
>
> DOUG PATRICK
> 618-709-2615
I think before you get all self righteous you should refund my money. You may think it's ok to take someone's money and not deliver the goods, but I don't, and not paying me back and not delivering the goods is a BS way to do business, and IS fraud. If you think I'm wrong, we can let the local authorities decide. I'm still glad to put all of this out an AZB if you think you're right and I'm wrong. Otherwise,if I were you I'd STFU.

On Sep 17, 2009, at 10:45 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:

> Just for the record this cue was posted up for sale on Aug 27th! Not over a month ago!
> Just thought you should know the facts on when this cue was put up for sale!
>
> Thanks
> DOUG
>
> --- On Wed, 9/16/09, Bill Crockett <bill@crockett.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Crockett <bill@crockett.net>
> Subject: Re: pic
> To: "ROBERT PATRICK" <patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 7:26 PM
>
> What is this supposed to show me? And I still don't understand why you discovered this AFTER advertising the cue for sale for over a month.
> ????
> bc
> On Sep 16, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
>
>>
>> <P1012623.JPG>
Now everyone here can see that I was very honest with Bill from the start! I made a bad choice by using his money he sent me to pay for materials before he got his cue. My Fault! I have posted on the ask the cuemaker section that the other cue here was sold pending payment. As soon as I get the funds from this person I would me refunding Bill's money back to him.

Beg, borrow or steal (not) the money and send it back to this guy immediately. Telling him a story about your financial plight (whether true or not) just doesn't hold water here. That may be what really got him irritated, more than the first story about the bad pin. Once again, telling Bill you spent HIS money to buy materials is just not an acceptable business practice to most honorable people. Check your moral compass and do the right thing.

 

[macguy]

Never spend the cash until the customer is happy!!!!

Better yet, don't do business with guys who don't have a pot to pi$$ in.

 

[Masayoshi]

three things in response:
1. thanks for publishing my address and phone number on the internet. Nice touch.
2. you forgot a couple of emails, here's one of them:
Begin forwarded message:

From: ROBERT PATRICK <patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com>
Date: September 18, 2009 9:53:39 AM PDT
To: bill crockett <bill@crockett.net>
Subject: Re: pic

Bill:

Feel free to do what you need to do to make yourself feel better about this! Like I said before I have been honest with you about what had happened here. You want to talk about being self righteous, if you would get you head out of you ass long enough to see that this was an accident! It wasnt done on purpose! Like I said, you do what you need to do! Oh yea Bill I will never STFU!

3. If anyone else thinks I'm being a dick about this, send me your $1235 so I can tell you to take your head out of your ass while you wait to get it back. Masayoshi, since you already have my address, you know where to send the money....

That reply makes absolutely no sense. Why would I want to give money to someone who is being a dick? If you were reasonable you would give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him more than 3 DAYS to get your money back. If he goes over the allotted time THEN start complaining about fraud.

Partner, maybe you don't understand cue building or maybe you did not read the rest of this thread, or what ever. However, first let me tell you, the cue was for sale for almost two weeks before it sold. When a cue is put up sale in most cases everyone normally assumes that it is completed unless it is advertised differently and this cue wasn't.

Next, pins do not come loose so quickly unless they were not glued in the first place and this all gets back to checking a cue out before you post it up for sale, and the same go's for checking the fit of the cues shafts.

Doug, I do not mean this as anything disrespectful to you personally we all make mistakes, but in this case the buyer is completely correct, so just admit you made a mistake give him his money and on to the next project, anything else is foolish.

JIMO

The cue was defective, I see no reason why having knowledge about cue building has anything to do with this. He thought it was okay and offered it for sale, he found out last minute that it was broken after he spent the cash (a mistake on his part, but not inherently a dishonest one). He offers the buyer a few options to get his money back or a replacement, but cash will take a few weeks due to not having it on hand. Where is the fraud involved? If there is any, I am missing it.

 

[XxMerlinxX]

Jay, he's stated multiple times that he's sending the payment back, why keep beating a dead horse?

 

[cuedaddy]

Id first like to say that I have no experience what so ever with either of these guys, and this is just my 2 cents

current rate is at 4.5% or .. Charge vig at 20, your 1300 takes $260 a week.. Find a happy medium, I would be happy to shell out 4.5 on an unsoliceted loan..

I feel for both of your positions, it was not right to spend the cash before hand.. i could immagine how the situation could happen, he is also in a jammer with his cue worth alot of tooth picks, and reputation teetering, if not falling

I think you may not have much experience investing every dime you have available back in to something you believe in..

I immagine, rent came around, bills were paid, he was cashed, he hit pay dirt a week in to the month and ordered via credit card for his timber with your deposited money, not ever thinking that there was a possibility there was anything wrong with the cue.

once the card is in the system, there is noting to do.. A day later he finds that the cue is a log, and shits..
He does the right thing and tells you whats up.. where like he said, he could have just sent it, cashed out if you didnt notice, or played dumb if you did, and had more sympathy from you..
I think it is admirable for not doing that at least

however, the ultimate and maybe an expensive lesson, if he is willing to justify his actions with $ or labor.. is not to spend someone elses money - And I think he realizes that

his public acknowledgement shows his intentions

You get the wrong food at mcdonalds, you get free food?

Pay up and make up?

 

[patrickcues]

Beg, borrow or steal (not) the money and send it back to this guy immediately. Telling him a story about your financial plight (whether true or not) just doesn't hold water here. That may be what really got him irritated, more than the first story about the bad pin. Once again, telling Bill you spent HIS money to buy materials is just not an acceptable business practice to most honorable people. Check your moral compass and do the right thing.

Jay:
First let me say that I value your opinion! 2nd. There is no story about the pin! I told Bill and everyone here the truth on what happened and how it happened. 3rd. Using Bill's money to purchase more supplies before he got the cue may have not been the best choice! 4th. My moral compass is just fine. You check you morals when you intentioinally screw someone! Not when you make a mistake and it take a little time to rectify it! This happened 3 days ago! You would think that anyone would get more than 3 days to fix any type of problem! I know I would! But that is just me!

Jay I would have much rather that this did not happen! Bill would have his cue and I would have a happy customer! Not one that is angry and dragging me through the mudd! Think about this! Who does this really hurt? Bill, yes for a week or 2. Me for as long as people remember this thread! So who gets hurt Jay! I DO! Not anyone else! Now do you really believe that I am trying to screw this guy! Give me a break!

Like I said I value your opinion. Especially from what Dean has always spoke about you!

Thanks

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, he's stated multiple times that he's sending the payment back, why keep beating a dead horse?

This horse ain't dead until he actually sends the money back. My point was that by using the excuse of not having the money to send him because he bought supplies with it borders on dishonesty. Remember he still had the cue AND Bill's money.

I don't know how many times someone has promised to send me money (how many others have had the same experience?) and all I kept getting were promises. I'm not saying that will be the case here, but his excuse struck me as weak at best. Maybe I operate with a different morality than most, I don't know.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay:
First let me say that I value your opinion! 2nd. There is no story about the pin! I told Bill and everyone here the truth on what happened and how it happened. 3rd. Using Bill's money to purchase more supplies before he got the cue may have not been the best choice! 4th. My moral compass is just fine. You check you morals when you intentioinally screw someone! Not when you make a mistake and it take a little time to rectify it! This happened 3 days ago! You would think that anyone would get more than 3 days to fix any type of problem! I know I would! But that is just me!

Jay I would have much rather that this did not happen! Bill would have his cue and I would have a happy customer! Not one that is angry and dragging me through the mudd! Think about this! Who does this really hurt? Bill, yes for a week or 2. Me for as long as people remember this thread! So who gets hurt Jay! I DO! Not anyone else! Now do you really believe that I am trying to screw this guy! Give me a break!

Like I said I value your opinion. Especially from what Dean has always spoke about you!

Thanks

Thank you for this prompt reply Doug. I can tell you're a good guy who made a mistake. The sooner you straighten it out, the better it will be for you! That was the point of my earlier post to you.

 

[cuedaddy]

10-4 on that

 

[ugotactionTX]

You might want to wait...

and make sure the buyer of the other cue is happy before you send HIS money to SOMEONE ELSE. Just thinking out loud here ...

Tommy:
I also posted in my other thread when Jay asked me if I had refunded the money I told him that I have the other cue on here sold pending payment. That as soon as I get paid from that cue I will issue a refund to Bill! I have never been dishonest about this to Bill or anyone else as far that goes. ( this cue is no longer for sale) give me a call and I will explain!

 

[Masayoshi]

This horse ain't dead until he actually sends the money back. My point was that by using the excuse of not having the money to send him because he bought supplies with it borders on dishonesty. Remember he still had the cue AND Bill's money.

I don't know how many times someone has promised to send me money (how many others have had the same experience?) and all I kept getting were promises. I'm not saying that will be the case here, but his excuse struck me as weak at best. Maybe I operate with a different morality than most, I don't know.

How does that border on dishonesty? Dishonesty is telling the buyer that he is "on vacation and cant access the funds" or just not replying until he has the refund money etc. etc. In this case he fully disclosed to the buyer what the situation was and due to a mistake (not a dishonest one) on the sellers part it is inevitable that the seller wait a bit before receiving his check. Its not dishonesty until he goes over the 2 weeks or so that he said he needed. Honestly I don't think a cash flow problem should be cause to destroy someone's reputation. There are many who have done much worse and come out smelling much better than this guy will after this is all done and over with.

 

[tbayplayer]

talk about dragging him threw the mud

Don't worry there are a lot of customers out there and one bad rep will not hurt you. You made a mistake.... so be it, you have been forthwrite, you are going to pay back ASAP.

I think people can cut Doug some slack, he is a talented cuemaker... at least he doesn't hide when there is a problem! I don't believe I have heard a bad word about Doug Patrick Cues ever.

People talk about spending the money before your customer is happy....How many of you's sell one cue to fund a purchase of another cue? The money sits in you paypal account for what 5 minutes!

 

[Cuemaster98]

"I'm still glad to put all of this out an AZB if you think you're right and I'm wrong. Otherwise,if I were you I'd STFU."

I can understand this gentleman frustration for wanting the refund back immediately, but telling someone to STFU ins't exactly going to illicit a good response.

Sure, Doug's email is unwarranted but I think the OP email is what stir the fire. Doug seem to have tried to explain his situation but the OP may have felt that Doug was stealing/committing fraud. If this was true it would have been another issue but it's clearly doesn't seem to be the case here. Doug was just asking for more time. If he had sent the cue out, this whole process may have taken longer to resolved. I think Doug did the right thing with not shipping the cue.

In any case, an apologize to Bill is definitely warranted for not been able to sent back the refund immediately and its seem Doug has already done that in several instances and publicly as well.