can't play without elbow drop!

P

PetToilet

AzB Silver Member
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so i've been trying to rework a lot of my fundamentals. my stance, pre-shot routine, only using the bicep, pause before final stroke, etc. helped out (although not at first) but the one thing i cannot change and get working better even after months is elbow drop.

i feel like it takes away from me trying to have a perfect follow through which messes up my shot. i can't do long stop shots at all compared to just concentrating on the follow through.

any advice?

the reason i want to do this is because i feel like it would help my consistancy. all it has done for months is make me consistantly worse! and i've stuck with it and lost matches too!
 
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Take a lesson from a qualified instructor, who uses video to analyze your stroke. Dropping your elbow will NOT help your consistency. You can learn to stroke without the extra movement...but it's difficult to learn by yourself.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Johnnyz86 said:
so i've been trying to rework a lot of my fundamentals. my stance, pre-shot routine, only using the bicep, pause before final stroke, etc. helped out (although not at first) but the one thing i cannot change and get working better even after months is elbow drop.

i feel like it takes away from me trying to have a perfect follow through which messes up my shot. i can't do long stop shots at all compared to just concentrating on the follow through.

any advice?

the reason i want to do this is because i feel like it would help my consistancy.
Click to expand...
 
elbow drop

I was taught not to drop my elbow by Randy Goettlicher and that style works well for me. However, I also watch the world's greatest players play on a regular basis and notice that many of the best players in the world DO drop the elbow, especially on power shots.

My take on it is that no golf instructor would teach the Jim Furyk swing, but it works for him and so he does not try to change it. Go with what works for you. If you can control your stroke and drop the elbow then it may not be a fatal flaw.

I agree fully with Scott on the video thing. You will be amazed at how different your game is on video from what you believe it is. Video is a great teaching tool. Whatever style you wind up using it should be repeatable and should not divorce you in times of stress and pressure.
 
Similar experience

Johnnyz86- I had a similar experience. I did video analysis with a couple of different instructors and pointed out my elbow drop. Its pretty slight for most shots, but definitely there.

Both of them felt that it was a good idea to work on eliminating it because its an extra variable that can go wrong, but they also said they thought that my elbow didn't drop until after I made contact with the ball, so it wasn't a critical flaw.

I worked really hard to develop a pure pendulum stroke and got mixed results. I sometimes "found" the stroke, so it felt natural and smooth, but I could never get it to the point where it was repeatable.

I think like you, I couldn't have the same follow through. I recently went back to focusing on the feel of my stroke and not worrying about the elbow, and everyone has commented on the difference. I just seem to get a smoother stroke that way.

Maybe I never took the right approach to changing it....
 
Jerry...While many of the 'top pros' appear to drop their elbow in play, you'd have to put each and every one of them on slow-motion video to see what really happens. I'd bet dollars to donuts that, of the ones that drop their elbow, it is AFTER contact with the CB...thus having no effect on accurate contact with the CB. Since the CB leaves the cuetip after 1/1000th of a second, dropping the elbow after contact means nothing. It has no detrimental or positive effect on the outcome (even with power shots). The gigantic majority of normal players do not possess the perfect timing of the top pro players, which is why we teach a pendulum swing, with no elbow movement.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Jerry Forsyth said:
I was taught not to drop my elbow by Randy Goettlicher and that style works well for me. However, I also watch the world's greatest players play on a regular basis and notice that many of the best players in the world DO drop the elbow, especially on power shots.

My take on it is that no golf instructor would teach the Jim Furyk swing, but it works for him and so he does not try to change it. Go with what works for you. If you can control your stroke and drop the elbow then it may not be a fatal flaw.

I agree fully with Scott on the video thing. You will be amazed at how different your game is on video from what you believe it is. Video is a great teaching tool. Whatever style you wind up using it should be repeatable and should not divorce you in times of stress and pressure.
Click to expand...
 
Johnnyz86 said:
so i've been trying to rework a lot of my fundamentals. my stance, pre-shot routine, only using the bicep, pause before final stroke, etc. helped out (although not at first) but the one thing i cannot change and get working better even after months is elbow drop.

i feel like it takes away from me trying to have a perfect follow through which messes up my shot. i can't do long stop shots at all compared to just concentrating on the follow through.

any advice?

the reason i want to do this is because i feel like it would help my consistancy. all it has done for months is make me consistantly worse! and i've stuck with it and lost matches too!
Click to expand...

Once more with feeling:

there is absolutely no problem with dropping your elbow on follow thru.

In fact - many of the best players in the world drop/dropped their elbow -
some on every shot.

Watch any 14.1 breakshot by a top pro - Mezz
would have his elbow down by his waist.

Forget all the malarkey that they are some kind of exception with
an oddball style - follow thru with your entire arm is just as smooth and,
more importantly, controlled, if that is your natural style.
Mosconi was as smooth as glass.

IMNSHO - if you play comfortably with this style - it would be
foolhardy to change - it does not lead to better consistancy -
esp if you are past the level of ball banger<which it sounds like you are>

Dale
 
There are several players with unorthodox styles. As long as you master your technique and it stays consistant, I wouldn't worry to much about the elbow.
 
Scott Lee said:
Jerry...While many of the 'top pros' appear to drop their elbow in play, you'd have to put each and every one of them on slow-motion video to see what really happens. I'd bet dollars to donuts that, of the ones that drop their elbow, it is AFTER contact with the CB...thus having no effect on accurate contact with the CB. Since the CB leaves the cuetip after 1/1000th of a second, dropping the elbow after contact means nothing. It has no detrimental or positive effect on the outcome (even with power shots). The gigantic majority of normal players do not possess the perfect timing of the top pro players, which is why we teach a pendulum swing, with no elbow movement.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


Ah, the infamous elbow drop!!

All the top pros do it. Just check out Mike Davis!

Most of them do it after the cue tip contacts the cue ball. The big elbow dropping seems to occur mostly on power shots.

Should we mere mortals try to eliminate excessive elbow drop? Of course, especially if it comes before the tip contacts the cue ball.

Ought we to obsess over it? I don't think so.

When I asked Mark Wilson about it, he was very cautious in his answer, and didn't really give me a good, clear answer... I wonder why.

FWIW, I think the frickin' deep screw stroke is the nuts...

Flex

P.S. If my last sentence is hard to understand, please let me know.
 
i used to have elbow drop before the hit which made me wildly inconsistant. I have since then changed it till afterwards and it improved me a lot. For some reason I wanted to get rid of it all together to make sure even under the most stressful shots or most powerful shots i wouldn't accidently drop it early.

and yeah, when i first watched myself play on video i was shocked. going to a real instructor is a goal once i get a real job :)
 
There are several critical items we look for when we do video analysis of our student's stroke. One of which is the elbow movement. (up or down) Can a player be consistent with elbow movement? Absolutely! Is it easier to be consistent if the elbow is pinned? Absolutely, again! When the elbow moves during the stroke, it increases the potential for other problems to show up. When the elbow doesn't move, the chance for those related problems to impact your stroke are greatly reduced.

We don't tell anyone they MUST pin the elbow. We just show them how much easier a consistent, repeatable stroke becomes when they do.

Steve
 
Finding your perfect "Home" position helps insure that the elbow remains in the some position throughout the stroke.......SPF=randyg
 
My question to you is are you hitting the cue ball where you want (vertically i.e. center, high, low) with your current stroke, even at high speeds? If the answer is yes, then you are probably dropping your elbow after making contact and are OK. If the answer is no, you tend to hit the cue ball a little higher than you intended on some shots, then I would suggest getting lessons. You are probably dropping your elbow a little soon raising the cue tip a little higher then intended. You would need to fix that.

Where is your stroking hand located on the butt? Does it fall 90 degrees from your elbow when tip is near the cueball? If not, is it more forward or more back from where 90 degrees would be? If it is not 90 degrees dropping sraight down from your elbow, and you answered no to my first question about hitting the cueball where you want, I would start there and try the pendulum stroke again without moving your elbow. If you can do that using soft to moderate speed strokes, dropping your elbow on hard speed shots would be after hitting the cue ball.

I hope this made sense and points you in the right direction. However there is no substitute for personal instruction.

Dave
 
Johnnyz86 said:
so i've been trying to rework a lot of my fundamentals. my stance, pre-shot routine, only using the bicep, pause before final stroke, etc. helped out (although not at first) but the one thing i cannot change and get working better even after months is elbow drop.

i feel like it takes away from me trying to have a perfect follow through which messes up my shot. i can't do long stop shots at all compared to just concentrating on the follow through.

any advice?

the reason i want to do this is because i feel like it would help my consistancy. all it has done for months is make me consistantly worse! and i've stuck with it and lost matches too!
Click to expand...

Just watch an observe the pros - those who have their chin almost touching the shaft don't drop their elbow, except maybe on power shots.

IMHO, the more upright you stand the more difficult it is not to drop your elbow. Observe Efren - he is about 6 inches above the shaft and his elbow drops 2 inches. But like Scott said, this is probably after he hits the shot.

One thing I have observed is that players who stand more upright have their tip touch the cloth on their follow through, if they use a true pendulum stroke. Scott Lee, who has a perfect stoke IMHO, is a perfect example of this. I have watched Allison Fisher a lot and since she is so low over the shot, her tip doesn't touch the cloth - rather it is off the table more often than not.

Edited: I forgot to mention that Allison's stroke is NOT a true pendulum stroke. Just watch her cue on the take back. It comes almost straight back with no dip as is found in the pendulum stroke. This is because she 'opens' her grip on the backswing. Her rear fingers open. A friend of mind says she evens recommends this in her teachings.
 
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i can't do long stop shots at all compared to just concentrating on the follow through.
Then don't think of the "follow-thru".
Make sure the forearm is perpendicular to the floor right before the tip makes contact with the cueball, then let your wrist end up up above the bicep.
Buy Scott and Randy's dvd now.
 
oh they have a dvd? i didn't know that!

anyways, i thought it should be 90 degrees to the elbow? i've heard a couple different things which are all slightly different when the shot is not 100% || to the ground:

|- to elbow, |- to cuestick, |- to ground

where |- is perpendicular

i usually try to do |- to cuestick, but i've found a little behind that helps out when my days are a little off.

as for a fisher's stroke, that is similar to mine in the fact that i only grip with 3 fingers, so the others are already open. i am hitting where i want to on the cue ball most of the time for the most part - although i have not actually taken a high speed video or have those cue balls with targets - stop shots stop without any extra spin usually. however, on many high power shots or when i'm really nervous or it just isn't my 'day', i my stroke gets off. and it's not the good kind of getting off.
 
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whitewolf said:
Just watch an observe the pros - those who have their chin almost touching the shaft don't drop their elbow, except maybe on power shots.

IMHO, the more upright you stand the more difficult it is not to drop your elbow. Observe Efren - he is about 6 inches above the shaft and his elbow drops 2 inches. But like Scott said, this is probably after he hits the shot.

One thing I have observed is that players who stand more upright have their tip touch the cloth on their follow through, if they use a true pendulum stroke. Scott Lee, who has a perfect stoke IMHO, is a perfect example of this. I have watched Allison Fisher a lot and since she is so low over the shot, her tip doesn't touch the cloth - rather it is off the table more often than not.

Edited: I forgot to mention that Allison's stroke is NOT a true pendulum stroke. Just watch her cue on the take back. It comes almost straight back with no dip as is found in the pendulum stroke. This is because she 'opens' her grip on the backswing. Her rear fingers open. A friend of mind says she evens recommends this in her teachings.
Click to expand...

You need to watch more pros - and the right ones.
Steve Davis - who dominated Snooker in the 80s, dropped his elbow
when he needed to.

Allison is a good player for sure, but she isn't 40% of any of the
top male Snooker players.
BTW - the cue movement you want is not that of a pendulum,
but rather one like a piston in a bore.

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
You need to watch more pros - and the right ones.
Steve Davis - who dominated Snooker in the 80s, dropped his elbow
when he needed to.

Allison is a good player for sure, but she isn't 40% of any of the
top male Snooker p[ayers.
BTW - the cue movement you want is not that of a pendulum,
but rather one like a piston in a bore.

Dale
Click to expand...


Hi Dale. What doe's this mean; "like a piston in a bore." Would you please describe it for me. Thanks....SPF=randyg
 
pooltchr said:
There are several critical items we look for when we do video analysis of our student's stroke. One of which is the elbow movement. (up or down) Can a player be consistent with elbow movement? Absolutely! Is it easier to be consistent if the elbow is pinned? Absolutely, again! When the elbow moves during the stroke, it increases the potential for other problems to show up. When the elbow doesn't move, the chance for those related problems to impact your stroke are greatly reduced.

We don't tell anyone they MUST pin the elbow. We just show them how much easier a consistent, repeatable stroke becomes when they do.

Steve
Click to expand...


This is a great answer. I hate all the "This is how it should be done". I agree that elbow drop leads to flaws in my stoke, but many much better player than me drop that thing all the time.

Pete
 
Pete said:
This is a great answer. I hate all the "This is how it should be done". I agree that elbow drop leads to flaws in my stoke, but many much better player than me drop that thing all the time.

Pete
Click to expand...
Why would it lead to flaws?
Are they dropping their elbow or it's their natural follow or resting the elbow?
Bustamante's really the only one I know that dramatically drops his elbow ( Mike Davis too but his shoulder is whacked ).
 
pdcue said:
You need to watch more pros - and the right ones.
Steve Davis - who dominated Snooker in the 80s, dropped his elbow
when he needed to.Dale
Click to expand...

Well, not generally:grin:

In the beginning of the first video, he is shooting a few balls

Snooker - Champions Way With Steve Davis
Cues Cueing Aim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JxEFj2-aw

In the second, around 6:42 he starts talking about cueing and at 7:10 he discusses a power shot, with his grip at the end of the cue.

In the power shot, he drops his elbow, but watch where the cue tip ends up.
A No-No.:p
With better editing, or a proper demonstration, the elbow drop wouldn't be there.

Aim Exercises Cueing Grip Stance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwmXqZqdis
 
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