Challenge of Champions dump

[JB Cases]

Go back and watch the 8-ball Mike Lebron missed to win the set 2 games up and look at Buddy's reaction. He is playing for $50,000 winner take all, is he relieved at the chance to win? No. Is he shocked and hungry to make Mike pay for that mistake? No. Does he look happy at all? No. He looked disgusted and like he wanted to slap Mike for missing that shot. He could not believe after all of his efforts to get Mike to win that game that Mike went and blew that shot and let him back to the table with 2 complete ducks.

I don't know, maybe you are simply terrible at reading people John, you and CJ both... I am not, Buddy did "not" want to win that set and he certainly did not want the set to go to hill-hill.

The thing I found most surprising in the whole thing was how terrible an actor on of the biggest hustlers and road players of all time proved to be.

That's a lot of projection.

One thing I know just from my experiences here is that people LOVE to project and assign motivation without the slightest clue as to what's really going on in a person's head.

Furthermore, these people are still around, Buddy, Mike Lebron, Nick Varner etc... so instead of making assumptions about them why don't you all that really want to know find them and ask them directly?

 

[AtLarge]

... Only one player (Earl or Allen) refused to be part of this deal. The other seven guys split the 50K equally (plus cashed $4,200 tickets at the sports book). Not a bad payday in 1991, over 11K each. I'm not guessing here and this is not what I think happened. It's a fact Jack! After this I'll let it go at that and we can move on to other topics. ...

Jay, Strickland wasn't one of the 8 players in 1991. You have previously reported that it was Hopkins who refused to be part of the deal in 1991 and that Strickland "blew the whistle" on a deal for 1992: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2402290&postcount=129

 

[Celtic]

That's a lot of projection.

One thing I know just from my experiences here is that people LOVE to project and assign motivation without the slightest clue as to what's really going on in a person's head.

Furthermore, these people are still around, Buddy, Mike Lebron, Nick Varner etc... so instead of making assumptions about them why don't you all that really want to know find them and ask them directly?

We have people who were there in person and have admitted to reality of things. You simply chose to ignore what they have to say.

Do you seriously think Jay would not know the truth? Are you and CJ both calling CJ's good friend Earl a liar? Seems that is about the truth of it.

 

[itsfroze]

CJ, this was a long time ago in another galaxy far away, but IT REALLY HAPPENED and to deny it happened is a huge error in judgement imo. I don't think it has any bearing on professional pool today so I won't belabor the issue any longer after this. There certainly was a lot of pressure on Buddy as it turns out. Six other guys were counting on him to lose this match, since they were all holding $200 tickets at 20-1 on Mike! Yes, Buddy had a ticket too. None of these tickets were bought by the players themselves, they had someone (friend or spouse) make the purchase for them.

Only one player (Earl or Allen) refused to be part of this deal. The other seven guys split the 50K equally (plus cashed $4,200 tickets at the sports book). Not a bad payday in 1991, over 11K each. I'm not guessing here and this is not what I think happened. It's a fact Jack! After this I'll let it go at that and we can move on to other topics.

I'm certain CJ that if you had been invited that year you also would have refused to participate because that's the kind of man you are. :wink:
One last thing, I agree with you, KARMA is a b-tch! So be careful what you espouse and support. I do not fault or condemn any of these players for this transgression. Remember this was the first year of the Challenge and they may have thought it was a one time deal, and there is no question that the sports book made a terrible line on Mike Lebron, who was a fine player. The next biggest odds on anyone was like 8-1. It was just too tempting for the players, who saw an opportunity and went for it. By the way that was the only time this happened in this event. Matt Braun got wind of the whole thing and put an end to it quick the following year. He laid down the law to the eight players that any hint of a dump and none of them would get paid! They all had to sign an agreement disavowing any deals prior to the start of play.

P.S. I'm not a guy in a diner!

Thanks Jay for telling the real story, and C.J. your attempt at white washing this is as poor as the acting jobs of the players when this DUMP happened, LOL

 

[CJ Wiley]

One thing I don't believe at all is "vegas" would put up 20/1 on a player........

I don't know, maybe you are simply terrible at reading people John, you and CJ both... I am not, Buddy did "not" want to win that set and he certainly did not want the set to go to hill-hill.

You may be right, and you might not be.....I have stated many times I have no idea what was going through Buddy's head......and neither does anyone else.

He may have had things going on that we can only imagine....but that still doesn't lead me to assume the worst scenario for him......it could be a plethora of other things.

One thing I don't believe at all is "vegas" would put up 20/1 on a player with enough time for them to arrange Earl to be "out of the country" and not be allowed to play. This is the silliest "conspiracy theory" I've ever heard in my life. "Vegas" usually will change a line several times before "kick off" and the odds of it remaining 20/1 is probably very low........after all, Mike Lebron was one of the "champions" of the 'Challenge of Champions', it's not like he was some short-stop.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Another day, another argument.
10 more pages coming right up.

 

[Straightpool_99]

.............

 

[mosconiac]

I watched the video & drew my conclusion...I was primed to post about it & then I started thinking. This happened 23 years ago...so I decided to move on & not post it...well except for this post, right? Now, I am done not posting about it...LOL






















Please don't click this

 

[smoooothstroke]

Go back and watch the 8-ball Mike Lebron missed to win the set 2 games up and look at Buddy's reaction. He is playing for $50,000 winner take all, is he relieved at the chance to win? No. Is he shocked and hungry to make Mike pay for that mistake? No. Does he look happy at all? No. He looked disgusted and like he wanted to slap Mike for missing that shot. He could not believe after all of his efforts to get Mike to win that game that Mike went and blew that shot and let him back to the table with 2 complete ducks.

I don't know, maybe you are simply terrible at reading people John, you and CJ both... I am not, Buddy did "not" want to win that set and he certainly did not want the set to go to hill-hill.

The thing I found most surprising in the whole thing was how terrible an actor on of the biggest hustlers and road players of all time proved to be.

Not to split hairs here but I thought Buddy did a good acting job considering the circumstances.Buddy had a tough job to do with SM struggling.

Consider the 8 ball shot,If Buddy draws back for shape on the 9 he will leave SM an easier shot on the 8 but if he rattles the 8 then he might hook him if he draws behind the 9.

 

[JB Cases]

We have people who were there in person and have admitted to reality of things. You simply chose to ignore what they have to say.

Do you seriously think Jay would not know the truth? Are you and CJ both calling CJ's good friend Earl a liar? Seems that is about the truth of it.

Well.... for the sake of discussion...keep in mind that this is simply a discussion.

Jay's statements are inconsistent. In one of them he indicates that he "knew something was up but was powerless to do something about it" when refereeing the finals.

Now, as referee for the event and as plugged-in as Jay seems you would think that he would have seen the dumping previously and put a stop to it before the finals. So it appears that perhaps Jay did not actually know anything prior to the finals.

That said all you have is his observation from the finals and whatever conversation he reports having with the manager of the sports book afterward. Hardly conclusive evidence of a dump.

As for Earl, what was his alleged statement again? And is this statement on record FROM him or is it someone else saying that Earl said something?

IF Earl says that he was asked to dump then that is certainly a possibility. But that doesn't mean that there WAS a subsequent dump. In any event it would be Earl's testimony against seven other people. I am not saying Earl is lying, I am saying Earl has no first hand knowledge that a dump occurred and we don't have as far as I know any statement from Earl himself accusing his fellow professionals of felonies.

And to be clear, what we are talking about here are felonies. Fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. Probably the statute of limitations has run out on it but these are actual crimes you all want to put on the shoulders of Buddy Hall, Mike Lebron, Nick Varner and the other players who were allegedly a part of this.

 

[itsfroze]

Originally Posted By, Jay:

"I'm not guessing here and this is not what I think happened. It's a fact Jack! After this I'll let it go at that and we can move on to other topics."

I must have missed it, but I don't see where Jay says he is assuming anything,
oh that's right it was C.J. saying he doesn't want to assume anything.

Well then, don't read the truth above.

Oh, and if this didn't happen then why again did the casino stop take bets on Pool ?
Don't lose any more respect, stop with the dumb act.

 

[MahnaMahna]

Apparently to JB, the phrase "for the sake of discussion" actually means "make up some bullshit that is contrary to popular opinion to troll and argue some more". Yay!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Thanks, and now a word from our Sponsors.

Thanks Jay for telling the real story, and C.J. your attempt at white washing this is as poor as the acting jobs of the players when this DUMP happened, LOL

Thank you, and now a word from our sponsors.

 

[JB Cases]

Nah, no reason to argue. The experts have spoken. Nobody was dumping, it was all on the up and up. Strickland, Helfert and all the other people who claim to know something were all lying. Everybody who watched the videos are all blind idiots who can't run 3 balls.

Now that that's settled we can move on to other things, like which tip is the best.

No one is saying that. But all of us who have been around pool understand how things get twisted in pool room stories. I doubt that there is enough evidence to convict these men in court is all I am saying.

 

[JB Cases]

Apparently to JB, the phrase "for the sake of discussion" actually means "make up some bullshit that is contrary to popular opinion to troll and argue some more". Yay!

No, to me it means discussing the points made. Popular opinion doesn't mean that it's right. It might be but that doesn't mean it's not worth discussing.

Apparently to you popular opinion means that the discussion is over.

I guess those pesky blacks in the south should have bowed to the popular opinion that they are inferior to white people and deserve to be segregated.

Maybe women should have bowed to the "popular opinion" that they weren't intelligent enough to be allowed to vote.

Flimsy evidence and hearsay is not enough wannawannabe.

When someone states, "that's a fact jack" it often isn't a fact, Jack. It's an opinion backed by hearsay. Which is exactly what this is. The dumping is ALLEGED not proven. Certainly not proven by the video shown in my opinion.

It's also been proven countless times that different people will INTERPRET the same situation VERY differently. Where you see a player dumping someone else sees it as dogging.

 

[MahnaMahna]

LOL keep trying to explain away your own problems JB.

 

[JB Cases]

LOL keep trying to explain away your own problems JB.

You sure project a lot.

 

[itsfroze]

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
... I played in the next Challenge of Champions and they made me a 7/2 underdog against the field [/SIZE][/B] ... the 'Challenge of Champions is still on after 22 more years......and that's the facts.

Originally Posted By, AtLarge:
No, that's not the facts.

You didn't play in the next (1992) Challenge of Champions. That one involved Varner, Rempe, Lebron, Strickland, Davenport, Hopkins, Archer, and Hall (event winner over Archer).

Nor did you play in the 1993 Challenge of Champions. That one involved Hall, Archer, Davenport, Sigel, Strickland, Varner, Rempe, and Hopkins (event winner over Rempe).

You did play in the 1994 Challenge of Champions at the Mirage, losing your first match 1-7 to Archer. The other players were Sigel, Hopkins, Strickland, Martinez, Ellen, and Varner (event winner over Ellen).

And the Challenge of Champions did go on for 22 years in total (1991 - 2012), but it was not played in 2013. I reported that to you four months ago: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpo...&postcount=144 "

Then C.J. posts "well if you want to get annal about it"

Really, why use the facts, just make up some BS, then throw in some pictures.

 

[Straightpool_99]

.............

 

[itsfroze]

WOW, there goes your credibility C.J., you've been posting you played the next year and the casino was still taking bets. To back up your story that the dump didn't cause them to stop taking bets on Pool.

The truth is you didn't play in the next in 92' or even in the next 93'. -----------> WHY LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY, JUST MAKE UP SOME BS THAT FITS YOUR STORY !!!

The lie is the teacher