Mohegan sun wasn't even open in 91- Building hadn't even started til years later.
Challenge of Champions dump
- Thread starter hang-the-9
- Start date
Mohegan sun wasn't even open in 91- Building hadn't even started til years later.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but...Have you even read the thread? Most people, including myself, believe that he was trying to scratch on the 7. Scratching is harder than it looks and he barely "missed" the scratch. I made a complete shot by shot analysis of the match, which I have yet to see any of the "apologists" trying to counter. I'm not a pro player, but I have played this game for 14 years and watched "dangerously many" accu-stats tapes. I am convinced that he was dumping from what I saw on the video and of course I trust Jay Helferts word on this. He was there, and he knows the players.
Money Players do not Dog balls.
If the did they would be broke all the time. So to insure they don't stay broke they saver. Miss. When left to their devices a money player walks away with money in their pocket. Win, loose or draw. Sadly it only has to happen once to taint the whole sport.
When the old man on the hill says you miss, you miss! And that is when a money player says thank you. Can I have another? Paid.
Can it be stopped. It's called ban.
Nick
If the did they would be broke all the time. So to insure they don't stay broke they saver. Miss. When left to their devices a money player walks away with money in their pocket. Win, loose or draw. Sadly it only has to happen once to taint the whole sport.
When the old man on the hill says you miss, you miss! And that is when a money player says thank you. Can I have another? Paid.
Can it be stopped. It's called ban.
Nick
My point in my original post was, if you'd care to read it, why would he try a risky scratch in the side when he could just hit the 7 a touch fat and leave Mike with an easy layout and have nobody the wiser? Sorry that doesn't conform to your 'expert' analysis but I guess I live in a world where executing a scratch in the side on that shot is maybe a 1/5 proposition whereas missing the 7 is something that can be done 100% of the time.
#1
Because scratching in the side would not look as obvious as missing the seven.
#2
because scratching would give Mike ball in hand and make it easier to get out,
remembering that Mike missed a real easy shot the game before. (forcing Buddy to
make it hill - hill, or be called Mr. obvious forever, which kind of happened anyway, lol.
Have a good day !
If he missed the 7, why didn't he miss the 5? 
Why did he miss the 8? Why not just make it and accidentally hit the cueball right when setting up to shoot the 9 ?
Why did David Howard miss the 9? Why not just miss the 8 ?
If there was a fix, how come Jimmy The Greek didn't know about it?
Why did he miss the 8? Why not just make it and accidentally hit the cueball right when setting up to shoot the 9 ?
Why did David Howard miss the 9? Why not just miss the 8 ?
If there was a fix, how come Jimmy The Greek didn't know about it?
So non obvious that even the people on here who can't run a rack are convinced that's what he was trying? Ok.
Sorry but Buddy missed the 8 in game 16, then Mike missed it back and Buddy made it hill-hill.
In the hill game Mike missed an easy 2 ball (why would he do this if the fix was in? Cue ball was six inches from the 2.) after having BIH on the 1, then Buddy cleared to the 8. Could've easily missed the 6 if the fix was in, but made a good shot and then missed the 8/9 combo. Mike made a good 8 and 9 to win.
Basically every piece of 'evidence' itt can be explained by the fact that both players were dogging their brains out.
Jay was the ref, knows the people said it was a dump and he can prove it.
This is old news so glad that you see it different, good for you, lol.
IT WAS STILL A DUMP !!!
PS, exactly --------> "Sorry but Buddy missed the 8 in game 16, then Mike missed it back and Buddy made it hill-hill. <-------- LOL
EXACTLY Buddy tried to give it to Mike but when Mike missed it back Buddy had no choice but to make it.
Sorry don't know how to be any more clear on this.
This is old news so glad that you see it different, good for you, lol.
IT WAS STILL A DUMP !!!
PS, exactly --------> "Sorry but Buddy missed the 8 in game 16, then Mike missed it back and Buddy made it hill-hill. <-------- LOL
EXACTLY Buddy tried to give it to Mike but when Mike missed it back Buddy had no choice but to make it.
Sorry don't know how to be any more clear on this.
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You are aware this was not a couple of APA 5's playing, right
Yes, thank you, you explained away all the evidence by saying he "dogged" it... wow, thank you, that was just brilliant detective work, who would have ever thought of that.... you can explain away any evidence, in anycase, anywhere, at any time, if you just use your opinion.... right ??
"OJ did not kill anyone, his blood was planted at the scene"....
See how easy it works. I can explain away every piece of evidence of an open and shut murder case ..
Which is basically what the OJ "cream team" did to 12 jurors too stupid to get out of jury duty.
We found OJ's blood at the crime scene:
Defense: Oh, the blood was planted.
The limo driver saw OJ running back to the house
Defense: it was not OJ
OJ owned the exact same pair of shoes based on footprints, and have photos of him wearing the shoes.
Defense: OJ does not own those kind of shoes.
He had cuts on his hands, on the same night someone cut off his ex-wifes head
Defense: Paper cuts
It's not very hard, the sad part is these guys made a few million dollars with bs answers because they somehow won the lottery and had the 12 dumbest folks on the planet on the same jury.
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Sure it could, if Hall just missed a couple of balls but...He didn't just miss. He played weird position shots and came dangerously close to scratching twice and actually scratched once. He missed an 8 ball that people who can't run a rack (or even 2 balls) could make 99 times out of a hundred AND he missed a combination that any pro would be a huge favorite to make. He also played a very suspect
"safety" shot at the start of the game and a crazy attempt at a 1-9 combination that was just unbelievably bad.
I made the "analysis" that you so casually dismiss because I wanted to show that it was not just one or two suspect shots in this match, there were several shots that were so out of character for a knowledgeable player like Hall that even someone half blind could tell that something was up. I am not trying to make myself important here, I am not even close to Buddy Halls level, in fact there are probably hundreds of better players than me on this forum. But that is exactly the point. You don't need to be a pro to see this, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who has their eyes open. It is not just one suspect shot, but shot after shot. With every strange shot the probability of foul play increases, especially since this is Buddy Hall, by many peoples estimation the greatest position player that ever lived. Perhaps even one of the most knowledgeable players as well. It all adds up you see...
The match as broadcast by ESPN rack by rack. I've made the shots I thought were suspect in bold type.
Rack 1. Mike LeBron breaks, makes a ball and then misses a combination. Buddy tries a bank and misses. LeBron shoots a safe. Hall misses a one rail kick he wouldn't miss again in a million years, according to Rempe. LeBron gets ball in hand and runs out.
Rack 2. Hall makes 9 ball on the break and it is spotted. Hall makes the 1 and 2 and misses the 3, leaving it hanging in the pocket. In Buddys defense the rails on this table seem very dead and he came up short on the 3 possibly for that reason. The cut on the 3 that he missed was relatively difficult. Maybe not for a pro, but it is missable for sure. LeBron runs out from there. Score is now 1-1
Rack 6. Score is 3-2. LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy makes the 1 and the 7 on a combination and is out of position. Plays a "safe" on the 2 hanging it in the pocket. Mike LeBron makes it, but the dead rails get him and he is snookered. (Edit: I don't think LeBron can blame the rail here, he was dogging it, the shot was way to weak). He fails a masse. Buddy has ball in hand and has to make the 3-9 combination. Score is 3-3
Rack 13. Buddy breaks and comes up dry. LeBron pushes out and gets it. He makes a nice jump shot. He runs to the 7 and then misses it badly. Buddy runs the 3 remaining balls. Score is 7-6 Hall.
Rack 14. LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy makes a great carom shot but is snookered on the 1. Tries to bank the 1 and misses. LeBron safes him. Buddy tries a combination that does not look on (looks like it's pointing into the rail and has to be hit rail first to have a chance) and hangs a ball. Edit: I may be wrong about this particular shot. It could be argued that with the huge pockets and dead rails he figured it might have a chance. Maybe he felt he had no other viable shot. LeBron runs out from there.
Rack 15 Buddy breaks and does not get a ball. LeBron plays a safe. Buddy tries a combination 1-9 that is very out of character. 20% shot at the very best. Edit: Rempe claims it's one in 10. Who am I to argue with him?Leaves a hanger and LeBron runs out.
Rack 16 LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy tries a safe and accidentally makes the 1 in the side. He runs to the 7, IMO tries to scratch in the side, but fails and then misses the 8 very badly. LeBron is left over the 9 ball and misses the 8 very badly. Buddy is left a hanger and must run out.
Rack 17 Buddy Hall breaks and gets 2 balls on the break. He has a Mickey Mouse run out for the cash! He scratches on the one ball in the exact same way he almost scratched in the rack before! LeBron has ball in hand and 5 balls that must be ran to get to the 8-9 combination. He misses on the 2 ball! Buddy plays a weird shot on the 2 and almost scratches, instead he gets a great position on the 5, purely by accident. That shot was going to the head rail. No reason at all for playing the shot this way. The scratch looks improbable, but everyone that has played the game for a while has scratched this way. The top english bends the cueballs path and makes the pocket big. On the 5 IMO he tries to get safe behind the 8 but he comes up short (dead cushion again, perhaps) and now has perfect position and has to run to the combination, which he misses terribly. LeBron makes a good rail first on the 8 and a nice shot on the 9 for the win. Then some terrible acting ensues.
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now it's interesting...
Without getting into speculation about whether there was dumping or not during the COC, I'd like to comment on the question: "What are the proper odds for either Lebron or CJW in winning 3 out of 3 short races?"
It has been repeated over and over that 20:1 odds were way too long for ML. Furthermore, CJW has also stated that he would play any top player(s) in 3 consecutive races to 7 if he were given 20:1 odds of winning all three.
I personally don't think 20:1 odds on the worst player (assuming that was ML) of an 8 man field is that long. After all, if every player had an equal chance of winning, the odds would still have to be 7:1 (I'm not including the house's vig).
Now, the question is: what would the per game odds have to be for CJW's proposition to be fair? i.e. let's say CJ played SVB, what would the probability of CJW winning any single game of 9ball have to be in order for 20:1 to be correct?
It actually turns out that if CJW has about a 45.2% chance of winning any single game, then 20:1 on winning 3 out of 3 races to 7 is fair.
Now, what are CJW's odds of beating SVB in any single game of 9ball? I'm not sure, but if they played a TAR race to 100, what would the line be on CJW? if you think it would be over 82, then take CJW at 20:1, on the other hand if you think it would be under 82, then lay the odds!
Without getting into speculation about whether there was dumping or not during the COC, I'd like to comment on the question: "What are the proper odds for either Lebron or CJW in winning 3 out of 3 short races?"
It has been repeated over and over that 20:1 odds were way too long for ML. Furthermore, CJW has also stated that he would play any top player(s) in 3 consecutive races to 7 if he were given 20:1 odds of winning all three.
I personally don't think 20:1 odds on the worst player (assuming that was ML) of an 8 man field is that long. After all, if every player had an equal chance of winning, the odds would still have to be 7:1 (I'm not including the house's vig).
Now, the question is: what would the per game odds have to be for CJW's proposition to be fair? i.e. let's say CJ played SVB, what would the probability of CJW winning any single game of 9ball have to be in order for 20:1 to be correct?
It actually turns out that if CJW has about a 45.2% chance of winning any single game, then 20:1 on winning 3 out of 3 races to 7 is fair.
Now, what are CJW's odds of beating SVB in any single game of 9ball? I'm not sure, but if they played a TAR race to 100, what would the line be on CJW? if you think it would be over 82, then take CJW at 20:1, on the other hand if you think it would be under 82, then lay the odds!
I would like to comment on Jay's remark about the casino manager that told him the casino as not worried about them losing $50K on the match in the sportsbook.
I was with a friend at the Belagio in March during the NCAA tournament. He is a big bettor with a longtime history in the casino. He tried to bet 30K on a basketball game and they would not let him.
Sounds like to me they are concerned about a 30k loss (let alone a 50k loss).
I think the casino boss comment to Jay was just his ego talking, him trying to show off.
I have seen other instances where a different guy was betting 15K a hand playing pai gow at the Wynn - the table limit - and he tried to bet 500 more on top of his girlfriend's hand and they woudn't let him. The bettor got upset but they didn't care. He wasn't going to be allowed to get over the table max even by 500.
My point - The casinos are super tight on all aspects of gambling and not in the business of giving anything away.
.....carry on.
I was with a friend at the Belagio in March during the NCAA tournament. He is a big bettor with a longtime history in the casino. He tried to bet 30K on a basketball game and they would not let him.
Sounds like to me they are concerned about a 30k loss (let alone a 50k loss).
I think the casino boss comment to Jay was just his ego talking, him trying to show off.
I have seen other instances where a different guy was betting 15K a hand playing pai gow at the Wynn - the table limit - and he tried to bet 500 more on top of his girlfriend's hand and they woudn't let him. The bettor got upset but they didn't care. He wasn't going to be allowed to get over the table max even by 500.
My point - The casinos are super tight on all aspects of gambling and not in the business of giving anything away.
.....carry on.
Well he had odds of 20:1 against him for a reason...He was a great player just a few years prior, but he was getting up in years. How did this guy even reach the finals with Varner, Sigel, Howard, Hopkins and Hall playing? They let him, that's how! (Not Hopkins, he wasn't in on the "alleged" dump) In fact he was under huge pressure! He had to beat Buddy Hall and make it look believable, yet he could not make a ball to save his life at this time. Buddy had to carry him across the finish line. Giving him ball in hand on a five ball run to the combination was not enough! You understand why Hall would want to gift wrap the win. He could not take any chances with this guy in this state. And the 8 LeBron missed was kind of an awkward shot anyways. It was long and over a ball, I don't think that was his worst blunder in this match.
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Oh right, Buddy is really good, and Mike isn't. Well sure that explains everything!
Well everything except Mike winning the Glass City Open just a few months before that, beating Archer in the finals — which is how he got in the CoC in the first place — then winning again a couple years later, when he beat Earl. Maybe they let him win too?
Face it, like all conspiratards you're trying to twist the facts to fit your narrative. You believe there was a dump, so therefore in your mind Buddy missed on purpose and Mike didn't.
Of course maybe I'm biased as well. I played Mike at the US Open in 2001, and I probably would've laid 20-1 that an old, washed up player like him wouldn't beat me, but he did. Maybe I let him win too
You are aware this was not a couple of APA 5's playing, right
Yes, thank you, you explained away all the evidence by saying he "dogged" it... wow, thank you, that was just brilliant detective work, who would have ever thought of that.... you can explain away any evidence, in anycase, anywhere, at any time, if you just use your opinion.... right ??
"OJ did not kill anyone, his blood was planted at the scene"....
See how easy it works. I can explain away every piece of evidence of an open and shut murder case ..
Which is basically what the OJ "cream team" did to 12 jurors too stupid to get out of jury duty.
We found OJ's blood at the crime scene:
Defense: Oh, the blood was planted.
The limo driver saw OJ running back to the house
Defense: it was not OJ
OJ owned the exact same pair of shoes based on footprints, and have photos of him wearing the shoes.
Defense: OJ does not own those kind of shoes.
He had cuts on his hands, on the same night someone cut off his ex-wifes head
Defense: Paper cuts
It's not very hard, the sad part is these guys made a few million dollars with bs answers because they somehow won the lottery and had the 12 dumbest folks on the planet on the same jury.
Good post <---------
What an anomaly for Las Vegas to lose 100% of their bets giving up 20/1
I agree, the casinos are not in the business of losing.....ever!
What's funny is there were supposedly 11/$200 bets on Lebron and I've never heard that anyone bet on the other players......wow, what an anomaly for Las Vegas to lose 100% of their bets giving up 20/1 on the money.
This sounds very fishy, and when I played in 94 Bobby Baldwin (President of the Mirage at the time) and I talked quite a bit - he never mentioned any concerns about the tournament or the players. We had to sign a contract that we couldn't make "savers," however, I can't recall stipulations about anything else.
He's actually really respectful of pool players, as a World Champion Poker Player himself (he can relate to the sub culture). Bobby used to play a lot around Dallas and Tulsa OK back in the 80s so he knows what's up in the world of gambling.
I agree, the casinos are not in the business of losing.....ever!
What's funny is there were supposedly 11/$200 bets on Lebron and I've never heard that anyone bet on the other players......wow, what an anomaly for Las Vegas to lose 100% of their bets giving up 20/1 on the money.
This sounds very fishy, and when I played in 94 Bobby Baldwin (President of the Mirage at the time) and I talked quite a bit - he never mentioned any concerns about the tournament or the players. We had to sign a contract that we couldn't make "savers," however, I can't recall stipulations about anything else.
He's actually really respectful of pool players, as a World Champion Poker Player himself (he can relate to the sub culture). Bobby used to play a lot around Dallas and Tulsa OK back in the 80s so he knows what's up in the world of gambling.
deleted.... why even bother?.........................
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I'm sure MahnaMahna will be thrilled until he finds out suicide trolls don't get the same 72 virgins deal as suicide bombers... Or then again more time for muppet porn so maybe it will all work out..... LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N_tupPBtWQ&feature=kp
pool playing music to make sure it's pool related =) Thanks for the reminder itsfroze.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otRr23Brir8
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