Cognoscenti Cues Now Available In The US

[dogginda9]

Played with one for over 7 years and loved the way it played. Only problem I ever had was when I went to get several new shafts made for it, I asked Joe to make them a little thicker and with his old taper. (Which my cues' shafts had I might add.) He got pretty indignant about how difficult it would be to accomodate my request and basically said he wouldn't do it. Something to do with re-calibrating (resetting maybe) his machines or something. No problem. Cue was on eBay and sold 1 day later for more than I paid for it.

 

[SirBanksALot]

Status Symbols...

A Cognescenti with all the CNC doo-dads, neato stuff and the infamous G10 pin is a status symbol - pure and simple. If someone wants to pay that extra money for status so be it. It would be interesting to know for sure how many top tournament players (the guys that use the cue, any cue, that helps them play to their full potential) own a Cognescenti. I can think of a few - but not too many.

 

[X Breaker]

Havn't people had a lot of trouble out of his cues? I know a couple of guys who say when they bought cues from him they were very disappointed with the quality. Shaft size was not accurate, finish was bad, etc.... Chip in the g-10 pin....etc....Havent hear alot of good things considering the high cost, but that is just what I heard.

It is true that G 10 pin will crack or chip, I even saw one broke in half! You have to be careful with the pin, it is stronger than a wooden pin but weaker than a metal pin. Some players like the hit of it and swear by it regardless. If you drop it without a joint protector, you can break the joint very seriously. So, you need to be very careful with it.

I personaly think Cognoscenti plays really well. Sometimes, they do not seem to have a consistent performance from one cue to another, but the same thing happens with Southwest and other big names. I do not consider it a sign of poor workmanship personally.

I always like his finish and never saw one poorly finished.

I hope Joe will focus more on the US market and starts offering high quality work with quality customer service. He is capable of making the best playing cue of the highest quality.

The cue market is different now than it was 20 years ago. The market place is full of competition now. No matter how good a cue maker is, he needs to be customer friendly and takes great efforts in quality control in order to stay competitive.

Just my opinion.

Richard

 

[classiccues]

wrong wrong wrong! you try to inlay some of these designs. that design in my avatar took many many hours to inlay, not including the many hours of programing, and every part and pocket still has to be hand preped before the inlaying was even attempted. just to inlay this without breaking an inlay is a feat alone because the tolorances is so tight. reguardless of cnc you still have all the set-up to prepare the pockets, inlays ect... the same way "traditional" cues are done. someday when you get a chance take a trip to Josey Custom Cues, Cognoscenti, Mcworter, Wayne, Josswest ect... and see what really goes on there before you make a statement like the one i responded to.

Sorry I disagree. Maybe its still that your learning the technology. But I have ran off more intricate parts for other industries out of hastelloy and other problematic metallurgy and in quantity and I have a much better idea of what is and what isn't achievable than most the people you are trying to convert.

Joe

 

[skins]

Sorry I disagree. Maybe its still that your learning the technology. But I have ran off more intricate parts for other industries out of hastelloy and other problematic metallurgy and in quantity and I have a much better idea of what is and what isn't achievable than most the people you are trying to convert.

Joe

disagree all you want your still wrong. i'm not trying to convert anyone. the procedures your talking about have nothing to do with inlaying cues period. i'll tell you what, anytime your ready i'll send you a design and i want you to:
build a butt for the inlays, cut the pockets, cut the inlays, prepare the parts and cue for inlay,inlay the cue,turn the cue down over time, (remember the gluelines now) and send it to me. i'd like to see your "intricate" work.

 

[SirBanksALot]

There Isn't A "Right" or A "Wrong"

As much as I don't care for CNC cues and as much as I think they can not be compared on an "Apples to Apples" basis with cuesticks built with the traditonal cuebuilding methods - its just a different way of building a cue. Its a preference and nothing more...

Coming up and learning to play with SS jointed 5/16 x 14 jointed cues - I will always prefer them and think they play better. I've got a Falcon from 1988 that I will play with in preference to any 3/8-10, radial pin or wood to wood joint out there - and I own a bunch of those wood to wood jointed cues.

I'll take a Jensen or a Szamboti over a Cog or a Thomas Wayne at any price

 

[skins]

As much as I don't care for CNC cues and as much as I think they can not be compared on an "Apples to Apples" basis with cuesticks built with the traditonal cuebuilding methods - its just a different way of building a cue. p

the only REAL difference in the construction of cues is the short or full splice. the rest of the inlay work, assembly and shafts are done in a similar if not same fashion. there has been much debate on whether the splice makes for a better hitting cue and i think that what represents the hit of the cue the most is the joint, shaft type/taper, ferrule and tip. i said the most, not all that makes the hit. understand that the butt plays a big part in it also with the use of different types of wood, diameter and taper of the butt, how the handle attaches to the cue and whether the cue or forearm is short spliced, full spliced or cored. i think the greatest advancement in cues today is not the machinery but the adhesives that are used to assemble the cue. the fact that newer epoxy type glues bond better and if used correctly virtually eliminate the "shakes" and "rattles" of some older materials. don't get me wrong the older adhesives can work well too but the there is a better chance of problems as the years go by. what i'm trying to say is everyone can have their likes and dislikes in cues but don't confuse that with the misinterpretation that the "traditional" way, even though my favorite also (the big secret is out!), of building cues is any "better" than other methods.

 

[ribdoner]

the only REAL difference in the construction of cues is the short or full splice. the rest of the inlay work, assembly and shafts are done in a similar if not same fashion. there has been much debate on whether the splice makes for a better hitting cue and i think that what represents the hit of the cue the most is the joint, shaft type/taper, ferrule and tip. i said the most, not all that makes the hit. understand that the butt plays a big part in it also with the use of different types of wood, diameter and taper of the butt, how the handle attaches to the cue and whether the cue or forearm is short spliced, full spliced or cored. i think the greatest advancement in cues today is not the machinery but the adhesives that are used to assemble the cue. the fact that newer epoxy type glues bond better and if used correctly virtually eliminate the "shakes" and "rattles" of some older materials. don't get me wrong the older adhesives can work well too but the there is a better chance of problems as the years go by. what i'm trying to say is everyone can have their likes and dislikes in cues but don't confuse that with the misinterpretation that the "traditional" way, even though my favorite also (the big secret is out!), of building cues is any "better" than other methods.

The real differance is value on the secondary market and/or ROI. See post #9 and 13 of this thread. Also there is a "fancy" BLUD for sale.on this forum. The #'s are VERY scary. As a dumb, broke down biker it seems to me that cnc Q's recquire less man hrs to make and, as a rule, don't hold their value. Several makers, IMHO, wish they wouldn't have made the investment in cnc based on the continued poor performance realized by most.Robbie the robot is best utilized in manufacturing economical, redundant cues. Customs are a different story but many who can afford them are reluctant to buy because the makers can't resist the temptation to repeatability use the same designs. Time will tell if my opinion that CNC'd embellished cues are poor investments is correct.

 

[Getnbzy]

The real differance is value on the secondary market and/or ROI. See post #9 and 13 of this thread. Also there is a "fancy" BLUD for sale.on this forum. The #'s are VERY scary. As a dumb, broke down biker it seems to me that cnc Q's recquire less man hrs to make and, as a rule, don't hold their value. Several makers, IMHO, wish they wouldn't have made the investment in cnc based on the continued poor performance realized by most.Robbie the robot is best utilized in manufacturing economical, redundant cues. Customs are a different story but many who can afford them are reluctant to buy because the makers can't resist the temptation to repeatability use the same designs. Time will tell if my opinion that CNC'd embellished cues are poor investments is correct.

TAP,TAP.TAP
Nice post rib.

 

[skins]

The real differance is value on the secondary market and/or ROI. See post #9 and 13 of this thread. i wasn't talking about the secondary market only the construction of cues and how it pertains to performance. value is always subjective. go to japan and ask why a $2500 Josey cue was selling for $4500 or a $3500 Cognoscenti for $6500. people in different places want different things sometimes. they like those cues over there Also there is a "fancy" BLUD for sale.on this forum. The #'s are VERY scary.the price that is being offered is a great price for that cue and whoever gets it will have a great example for their collection As a dumb, broke down biker it seems to me that cnc Q's recquire less man hrs to make and, as a rule, don't hold their value. that's not true. it all depends on the maker and the type of work being done Several makers, IMHO, wish they wouldn't have made the investment in cnc based on the continued poor performance realized by most. like i said it all depends how you use it. some use this technology because the work they want to perform is too problematic for convetional methods. some use it to cut down time, machining errors, cutter problems... the list goes on.Robbie the robot is best utilized in manufacturing economical, redundant cues. i think most economical cues use the print tranfer and overlay method as opposed to cnc because cnc still takes the labor to part and piece the cues together. Customs are a different story but many who can afford them are reluctant to buy because the makers can't resist the temptation to repeatability use the same designs.granted cuemakers who use cnc can over use a design the same way traditional cue makers can. traditional pronged cues look very similar if you take away the personality that each maker gives them. the same with any other type cue. if you like a base design work with the cue maker to "make it your own" by adding other aspects not originaly there in the design as with any cue maker Time will tell if my opinion that CNC'd embellished cues are poor investments is correct.

up
some will be and some won't be. it all depends on the maker.

 

[Hank Stamper]

A Cognescenti with all the CNC doo-dads, neato stuff and the infamous G10 pin is a status symbol - pure and simple. If someone wants to pay that extra money for status so be it. It would be interesting to know for sure how many top tournament players (the guys that use the cue, any cue, that helps them play to their full potential) own a Cognescenti. I can think of a few - but not too many.

You might want to change infamous to famous. Infamous means that it is famous for it's bad reputation.

I bet you haven't even hit with a cue that has a G-10 pin let alone a Cognoscenti.

I believe Scott Frost plays with an ebony plain jane made by Cognoscenti.

 

[cueman]

I'll agree that CNC cut point pockets are round fresh off the machine (pantograph, or cnc) but like I said, WHEN DONE CORRECTLY, CNC cut inlays are not round. It takes a tremendous amount of hand fitting to make them sharp and right. Some folks do the extra work, some don't, and there is a price difference. And, I don't like the rounded inlays just like the rest of you. But CNC does not necessarily = round, and pantograph does not necessarily = sharp.

that's all I've got, to each their own.

You are right. A pantograph uses the same round bits you use on a CNC. I have made parts sharp on a pantograph and I have made parts rounded on the end on a pantograph. I have made them both ways on CNC also. To me the pantograph was easier to use and I made cues that sold for thousands of dollars each on the small pantomill I developed. I say it was easier for me because I am not that sharp on computers. My son on the other hand has learned how to use the computer and likes the CNC. It is much easier when things go right to run a CNC program. But the drawing and learning how to use it is pretty tough. And when something goes wrong, I can't think of much that is more aggravating. The old v-groove points that seem to be coming back into popularity are fairly easy to make. There came a point that very few wanted them, then so many CNC inlaid cues came out that people started wanting them again. I think it is all just trends. The first Cogs were made using a small pantograph. Pretty much the same designs you see today. They just took a little more hands on time building. I predict that in the end CNC will be the way of life in almost all cue building shops, just as it is in the metal working machine shops today.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[classiccues]

You are right. A pantograph uses the same round bits you use on a CNC. I have made parts sharp on a pantograph and I have made parts rounded on the end on a pantograph. I have made them both ways on CNC also. To me the pantograph was easier to use and I made cues that sold for thousands of dollars each on the small pantomill I developed. I say it was easier for me because I am not that sharp on computers. My son on the other hand has learned how to use the computer and likes the CNC. It is much easier when things go right to run a CNC program. But the drawing and learning how to use it is pretty tough. And when something goes wrong, I can't think of much that is more aggravating. The old v-groove points that seem to be coming back into popularity are fairly easy to make. There came a point that very few wanted them, then so many CNC inlaid cues came out that people started wanting them again. I think it is all just trends. The first Cogs were made using a small pantograph. Pretty much the same designs you see today. They just took a little more hands on time building. I predict that in the end CNC will be the way of life in almost all cue building shops, just as it is in the metal working machine shops today.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

Chris,
Where can we see pics of your v-groove splices?

Joe

 

[SirBanksALot]

G-10 Pins

You might want to change infamous to famous. Infamous means that it is famous for it's bad reputation.

I bet you haven't even hit with a cue that has a G-10 pin let alone a Cognoscenti.

I believe Scott Frost plays with an ebony plain jane made by Cognoscenti.

Hank-I own one cue with a G-10 pin and have hit with several. I am very aware that Scott Frost plays with a Cog w/a G-10 pin. Although the G-10 pins does have its advocates - there are those, including some well known cuemakers, that have told me that can't tell any difference between the hit on a G-10 and another wood to wood joint cue.

 

[bruin70]

Wore the Japanese market out so its "ok" for us to buy them now? Anyone else see whats wrong with that picture? Same nice guy that hung up on me when I asked him to make the cue 1" longer? He makes a nice rod and I'm sure some people will jump at the chance but I'll pass...

it is the risk these guys take when they depend on asia. if this is the case, i expect only a few left standing.....gina.....tad.....

woooops, there goes my bmw!

 

[classiccues]

disagree all you want your still wrong. i'm not trying to convert anyone. the procedures your talking about have nothing to do with inlaying cues period. i'll tell you what, anytime your ready i'll send you a design and i want you to:
build a butt for the inlays, cut the pockets, cut the inlays, prepare the parts and cue for inlay,inlay the cue,turn the cue down over time, (remember the gluelines now) and send it to me. i'd like to see your "intricate" work.

You can say what you would like, your cue could still be run off in production. I know you want to claim all the little things, but if you think Josey is the only person who can do them, I would say your a little out of touch. I could send you a design, more complex than yours, but I know if I sent the program to you and to Joss, Schon or Pechauer I am getting the same cue back, at least asthetically.

Joe

 

[Craig Fales]

I'll second and third that motion. Why should I spend $1500 on an ugly CNC design when I can buy an equally ugly design from one of the production companies. And personally, I think a Joss just might play better.

LOLz...what it comes down to is any cue that is milled out on a CNC and then just thrown together doesn't warrant a higher price, like $1300.00 dollars is why out of line for any cue that DOESN'T have any hand crafting to it, even if it's just making the point sharp instead of the obvious CNC rounded over points....
________

 

[Craig Fales]

I personaly think Cognoscenti plays really well. Sometimes, they do not seem to have a consistent performance from one cue to another, but the same thing happens with Southwest and other big names. I do not consider it a sign of poor workmanship personally.

Richard

This is a good point about cues, you can take two identically designed cues and they will not play the same....this isn't a bad thing, just a thing....LOLz
________

 

[skins]

You can say what you would like, your cue could still be run off in production. sure with decal lables or form printing but not inlaying. like i said anytime your ready the challenge is there. but i know you won't take me up on it because you don't know what your talking about period. I know you want to claim all the little things, but if you think Josey is the only person who can do them, I would say your a little out of touch. you don't even listen to what was said as what i would expect from the person who by his avatar title is the one with the agenda. if what you got out of my posts is that i think keith josey is the only one that can do this kind of work you not only might need glasses or need to take an english course. read the post's again after you figure out whish one it is I could send you a design, more complex than yours, but I know if I sent the program to you and to Joss, Schon or Pechauer I am getting the same cue back, at least asthetically. sure a .5"x3" diamond shape will look like a diamond shape by anyone , so what? that's not what you were addressing. your were talking about my design work. this isn't about bringing other cue makers into this. you said you do much more intricate work than this and i gave you a challenge. you said "But I think the reality is that even your avatar, once given the program could be ran off on thousands of cues". well put up or shut up. i would be happy to send my original sketch to anyone of them and they can create their own idea of the sketch, do the cad work and produce their own code. the same as i did after the sketch was drawn but they would have no interest in trying to "mass produce" this work because like me they know better. Danny, Evan and Jerry wouldn't waste their time with an ignorant argument from you or anybody else.


Joe

go back to counting your cues

 

[skins]

LOLz...what it comes down to is any cue that is milled out on a CNC and then just thrown together doesn't warrant a higher price, like $1300.00 dollars is why out of line for any cue that DOESN'T have any hand crafting to it, even if it's just making the point sharp instead of the obvious CNC rounded over points....

you just made a point i was "trying" to make you said "what it comes down to is any cue that is milled out on a CNC and then just thrown together doesn't warrant a higher price" that's right but that's not the way good cuemakers use these machines. also your thoughts on prices being out of line with no hand crafting is just because you don't know how the cues are made from start to finnish that's all. the construction, preping, inlaying, finnishing are most of the work and all hands on. as far as sharp points try to do some of my work with no radius and you will see that it isn't worth the attempt. sharp points in prongs and simple shapes can be done but to do intricate design work you would have to hide the rounded pocket edges in ebony or if done in any other lighter material would leave a cue maker pulling his hair out, bring the quality of the work down and he in the end starve. these types of designs aren't meant to be done that way. that's why you don't see hardly anyone, if anyone, making their living doing this. if you like cues that look this way and want to able to afford to buy them this is the way they need to be done.