Corey's done it again, this time with 8b.

[Maniac]

Not getting into the pattern-racking discussion, but what I am wondering is....why wouldn't a tournament that has at least one certified referee on site, not have that referee racking the balls during ALL semi-final and final matches??? Ken Shuman should have been doing this at the USBTC's, IMO.

Talk about failure to utilize a person who has gone to great lengths to become the referee that he is, on top of the huge amount of experience he has...and NOT to use him to rack...it just baffles the heck out of me!!!


Yes...I know what the rules were....should have been waived for semi-final and final matches.

Maniac

 

[fathomblue]

I'm not sure where you stand. Are you simply against the rule or are you in favor of players violating the rule because you don't think it's a good one? Big difference.

I have no problem with Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets. Fact is it is a must know piece of information. But there is a difference between using that information to read a rack that was fairly given to you for a possible advantage versus pattern racking or purposely racking strategic gaps. One is creative & forward thinking and the other one is cunning and dishonest.

Creative and forward thinking:

Experimenting with all kinds of possible racking patterns and learning how to use them to your advantage so when you encounter one in a legally assembled rack you can use that knowledge to your advantage.

Cunning and dishonest:

Experimenting with all kinds of possible racking patterns and learning how to use them to your advantage, then deliberately racking in specific patterns to your advantage.

I'm with Creedo on this though. I didn't see Corey play and am not accusing him of anything. This is about the more general topic that developed from the discussion. :thumbup:

I'm against the rule. Again, it's the player's break. If they rack it in a way that makes it easier for them, well that's the idea of the game, right? If SVB continues to roll thru the field as he has been, will people cry for him to shoot one-handed? There has to be godforsaken parity all the time, right?

It's not like players are racking them outside the rack area. I say let the 8B stay in the middle. One of each suit stay in the back corners. The rest is a free-for-all.

Again, according to those that have tried this, using Corey's break.....if he doesn't make a ball, he's just committed table-suicide. BUT, that was HIS risk.

If he's willing to risk it, more power to him. He's innovative and I love that. Although, we don't truly know if he discovered it or someone else did.

I have no problem with a properly trained referee doing the racking. Past that, I don't want anyone else touching my balls. I'm the one having to break these and risking the chance that I might give up the table thru no fault of my own, especially if a guy were to slug me....which is a whole 'nother thing.

I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[chefjeff]

He's cheating.

Why not just break your opponent's thumbs and be done with it?

Jeff Livingston

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I'm against the rule. Again, it's the player's break. If they rack it in a way that makes it easier for them, well that's the idea of the game, right? If SVB continues to roll thru the field as he has been, will people cry for him to shoot one-handed? There has to be godforsaken parity all the time, right?

It's not like players are racking them outside the rack area. I say let the 8B stay in the middle. One of each suit stay in the back corners. The rest is a free-for-all.

Again, according to those that have tried this, using Corey's break.....if he doesn't make a ball, he's just committed table-suicide. BUT, that was HIS risk.

If he's willing to risk it, more power to him. He's innovative and I love that. Although, we don't truly know if he discovered it or someone else did.

I have no problem with a properly trained referee doing the racking. Past that, I don't want anyone else touching my balls. I'm the one having to break these and risking the chance that I might give up the table thru no fault of my own, especially if a guy were to slug me....which is a whole 'nother thing.

I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree.

Assuming your problem is with the rule, then I don't think we necessarily disagree. Where I draw the line is being OK with breaking a rule just because one doesn't like it.

Admittedly the enforceability of the rule is one problematical aspect of it. But my feeling is that while that may be a reason to change or eliminate it, it's not an excuse to violate it as long as it exists.

Thanks for the good debate. :wink:

 

[krupa]

I'm against the rule. Again, it's the player's break. If they rack it in a way that makes it easier for them, well that's the idea of the game, right? If SVB continues to roll thru the field as he has been, will people cry for him to shoot one-handed? There has to be godforsaken parity all the time, right?

It's not like players are racking them outside the rack area. I say let the 8B stay in the middle. One of each suit stay in the back corners. The rest is a free-for-all.

Again, according to those that have tried this, using Corey's break.....if he doesn't make a ball, he's just committed table-suicide. BUT, that was HIS risk.

If he's willing to risk it, more power to him. He's innovative and I love that. Although, we don't truly know if he discovered it or someone else did.

I have no problem with a properly trained referee doing the racking. Past that, I don't want anyone else touching my balls. I'm the one having to break these and risking the chance that I might give up the table thru no fault of my own, especially if a guy were to slug me....which is a whole 'nother thing.

I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree.

No, it isn't.

The break in pool is like shuffling a deck of cards. When you're the dealer, you're not allowed to order the cards, are you? No, you shuffle the cards and then deal them out and you have to make the most of what you're dealt. And as the dealer, you're not entitled to better cards. Why should you, the racker/breaker be entitled to an easy runout just because you're the racker/breaker and know how to stack the deck in your favor?

SVB dominates because he's the best player. Not because he pattern racks to give himself the easiest outs. This thread wouldn't exist if Deuel just kicked the crap out of everyone else. Instead, he racked in a way to set up easy run outs. And that's what we're talking about, not "he wins too much and has to be reined in."

I'm going to try his racking pattern and see what I (probably a low C player) can do with it.

 

[fathomblue]

SVB does pattern rack and fiddles the 10B set-up to help himself out. That's been widely noted here.

Nothing against that. He figured out how to make it work. I'm glad for him.

As for cards, you don't think people manipulate the deck to gain an advantage? And what about card-counting? Even that is frowned upon.

I don't play anything but spades for fun, btw, so I don't delve into that world really.

Honestly, by your example, we should have the referee rack AND break for the players. Then you'd have a "shuffling of the deck".

 

[krupa]

SVB does pattern rack and fiddles the 10B set-up to help himself out. That's been widely noted here.

Nothing against that. He figured out how to make it work. I'm glad for him.

As for cards, you don't think people manipulate the deck to gain an advantage? And what about card-counting? Even that is frowned upon.

I don't play anything but spades for fun, btw, so I don't delve into that world really.

Honestly, by your example, we should have the referee rack AND break for the players. Then you'd have a "shuffling of the deck".

I was simply drawing an analogy between pool and cards and showing that the break in pool is supposed to be something of a randomizer like shuffling and dealing cards.

I don't know what your point about deck mechanics is. Yes, people will manipulate decks; they are cheaters. Card counting isn't cheating but it makes sense that the casinos hate people who do it. In other card games, such as bridge, being able to know what everyone has based on how the hand has been played up to that point is actually a very admirable skill.

 

[chefjeff]

SVB does pattern rack and fiddles the 10B set-up to help himself out. That's been widely noted here.

Nothing against that. He figured out how to make it work. I'm glad for him.

As for cards, you don't think people manipulate the deck to gain an advantage? And what about card-counting? Even that is frowned upon.

I don't play anything but spades for fun, btw, so I don't delve into that world really.

Honestly, by your example, we should have the referee rack AND break for the players. Then you'd have a "shuffling of the deck".

Or rackers could not pattern rack.

Because others cheat, cheating is ok? Bunk.

Card counting is more like scanning the layout and choosing the right shots. It is NOT cheating.

Excuses based on feelings and nonsense don't make it right, either.

Jeff Livingston

 

[westcoast]

I just don't understand why opponents don't call people on pattern racking. Are they afraid of being called a nit or something?

 

[CreeDo]

They probably don't notice or care. Though I'm a little surprised...
Ken Schuman was commentating on the stream, and he was the first to point it out.
He is usually the TD/head referee at these events.

He saw Corey was pattern racking back like 4 or 5 matches prior to the end of the tournament.
So either he wasn't aware of the exact rule, or he chose not to enforce it.

 

[cardiac kid]

They probably don't notice or care. Though I'm a little surprised...
Ken Schuman was commentating on the stream, and he was the first to point it out.
He is usually the TD/head referee at these events.

He saw Corey was pattern racking back like 4 or 5 matches prior to the end of the tournament.
So either he wasn't aware of the exact rule, or he chose not to enforce it.

Ken not knowing a rule? Not a chance. He had to have knowingly allowed the racking to go on till someone called him on it. Just my opinion.

Lyn

 

[cardiac kid]

Or rackers could not pattern rack.

Because others cheat, cheating is ok? Bunk.

Card counting is more like scanning the layout and choosing the right shots. It is NOT cheating.

Excuses based on feelings and nonsense don't make it right, either.

Jeff Livingston

Jeff,

All the regional casinos in Upstate New York either use multiple decks or single deck with continuous reshuffle after every hand. Years ago, one of my very good friends was barred from most of the better casino BJ tables as he is a GREAT card counter. Even he admits he's lost in all the reshuffles now. His edge is still there but greatly reduced. He's just another victim at the table. Albeit a small loser. Kills them at poker. Quietly! One of his comments was his chances are now better at the slots !!!

Lyn

 

[The Saw]

They probably don't notice or care. Though I'm a little surprised...
Ken Schuman was commentating on the stream, and he was the first to point it out.
He is usually the TD/head referee at these events.

He saw Corey was pattern racking back like 4 or 5 matches prior to the end of the tournament.
So either he wasn't aware of the exact rule, or he chose not to enforce it.

Corey would most likely just use a different, or maybe even a few different patterns, and alternate between them. It's not like Corey only has one 8 ball rack pattern.... That is a train Ken, and no one for that matter, can stop.

14-15 years ago I had been playing nothing but one pocket for months and had a 9ball game set up the next day for decent money. I was practicing the break and kept losing control of the cue ball. Corey comes in and I ask him to show me a few slow to medium speed breaks. He starts in showing me some 9 ball breaks, then he goes into the rack and gaps, then 10ball and gaps, then the full rack... Someone finally walks up and starts nosing in, Corey, as usual, quits talking and sits down. After the guy leaves Corey tells me that in 2, maybe three more, sessions just like that he could teach me everything he knows about the rack and break. Sick thing about that is that first lesson was over 2-1/2 hours long. And that was 15 years ago.....

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

They probably don't notice or care. Though I'm a little surprised...
Ken Schuman was commentating on the stream, and he was the first to point it out.
He is usually the TD/head referee at these events.

He saw Corey was pattern racking back like 4 or 5 matches prior to the end of the tournament.
So either he wasn't aware of the exact rule, or he chose not to enforce it.

They notice. I'd find it hard to believe that just about any professional is oblivious to pattern racking and rigging. Call it professional courtesy if you will, but they knowingly allow it to go on, imho. I think it does have something to do with being labeled a rat or nit.

As for Ken, I too am surprised he didn't step in, assuming he was acting as an official during the proceedings. Not to give him an out, but it is also possible that since each match wasn't being overseen by a ref, it may have been discussed in the players meeting that any disputes or violations needed to be brought to the attention of an official first, similar to calling one over to watch a hit. Only then do they get involved.

Corey would most likely just use a different, or maybe even a few different patterns, and alternate between them. It's not like Corey only has one 8 ball rack pattern.... That is a train Ken, and no one for that matter, can stop.

14-15 years ago I had been playing nothing but one pocket for months and had a 9ball game set up the next day for decent money. I was practicing the break and kept losing control of the cue ball. Corey comes in and I ask him to show me a few slow to medium speed breaks. He starts in showing me some 9 ball breaks, then he goes into the rack and gaps, then 10ball and gaps, then the full rack... Someone finally walks up and starts nosing in, Corey, as usual, quits talking and sits down. After the guy leaves Corey tells me that in 2, maybe three more, sessions just like that he could teach me everything he knows about the rack and break. Sick thing about that is that first lesson was over 2-1/2 hours long. And that was 15 years ago.....

And there you have it. That is the main problem with the rule, it is difficult to enforce and has a high amount of deniability. But that's where honor is supposed to come in. There just is very little of it. Again, while this may be a reason to change the rule, it is not a valid excuse to violate it.

 

[The Saw]

And there you have it. That is the main problem with the rule, it is difficult to enforce and has a high amount of deniability. But that's where honor is supposed to come in. There just is very little of it. Again, while this may be a reason to change the rule, it is not a valid excuse to violate it.

Patterns are subjective, not objective. Let's say Corey was racking the same pattern every game as noted in the OP and his opponent is racking solid, stripe, solid, stripe every game. They're both pattern racking, sure, Corey is getting better results, but the other guys is racking in the same pattern every game himself, so who's wrong? Humans are creatures of habit and if you watch players of all calibers rack the balls you will see that they most often follow the same pattern in how they rack the balls.

 

[chefjeff]

Jeff,

All the regional casinos in Upstate New York either use multiple decks or single deck with continuous reshuffle after every hand. Years ago, one of my very good friends was barred from most of the better casino BJ tables as he is a GREAT card counter. Even he admits he's lost in all the reshuffles now. His edge is still there but greatly reduced. He's just another victim at the table. Albeit a small loser. Kills them at poker. Quietly! One of his comments was his chances are now better at the slots !!!

Lyn

I used to play blackjack at a professional level. I studied the game for years and played in many tournaments in Vegas in the late 70's and early 80's.

I didn't bet the high amounts as I am not a gambler and always used money management techniques carefully.

I never got barred as I was also good at playing the cat n mouse game. It came close a few times, but fate and good play took the heat off. I was at the old Sands when the mob still ran it and was varying between greens and one dollar chips. I'd stack a red on top of a green to keep the pile just two chips deep which tends to make my large bet look like my smallest bet (2 one dollar checks). But there were two bosses watching me carefully.

Well, at the time I was using Revere's 6 level chart and the net count was 6. I had fifty bet this time (hell, a 6 count, I had to!) got two face cards and the dealer showed a 5. The bosses were looking closely now and one was on the phone. The chart says to stand against a 5 but to split against a 6 if the count is that high. It was close enough to a 50/50 decision that I decided to split those 10s and maybe take off some of the heat from the pit.

When I split, the bosses started laughing outloud and then they both just turned away and never bothered me again. The best part was, when I split, I got two more 10s.

That was one of my most memorable plays, for sure.

I miss the old Vegas; the new one just doesn't do anything for me. If I want kids and Disneyland crap, I'll go to Disneyland.

Jeff Livingston

 

[decent dennis]

I always rack 9-ball: 2-7,4-5,6-3, with the 2 at the back but the numbers add up to nine . Is this pattern racking?

 

[Baby Huey]

If someone learns to rack the balls such that they can be manipulated then the rest of us need to pay attention. Look, Corey spends time paying attention to the physics of the game in relationship to his skill set. The rest of us don't have his pool intellect. Here's a look at some past champions and what they did to change their respective game.

Willie Hoppe: Played Balkline Billiards so perfect and dominated for a decade that they changed the game to 3 Cushion so everyone else could have a chance.

Johnny Archer: Broke in Nine Ball so well from the side rail that he was a shoo in to the finals of almost every tournament in the 90's. Where did they rack the balls and break from in the last Mosconi Cup?

Shane Van Boening: Magic Rack in 10 Ball anyone…….Forget about it.

Harold Worst: Won the 3 Cushion World Championship 1950's in Buenos Ares in front of 30,000 spectators that caused a riot. Juan and Eva Peron barred him from returning. Harold was also barred from the ring nine ball games in Johnson City cause he played to good. He was relegated to the sidelines and could be hired out by anyone to shoot a tough shot by any player in that ring game.

Machine Lou Butera: Ran 125 and out in 14.1 in 22 minutes. That wasn't fair, I didn't get any good pool watching for my $5 admission. He definitely should be barred.

So down through the years players have emerged that were just too good and too smart. I I say bar them from ever playing pool again and as a final measure take them behind the barn and beat them silly. iI's just not fair for them to be so smart and play so well.

 

[nine_ball6970]

I used to play blackjack at a professional level. I studied the game for years and played in many tournaments in Vegas in the late 70's and early 80's.

I didn't bet the high amounts as I am not a gambler and always used money management techniques carefully.

I never got barred as I was also good at playing the cat n mouse game. It came close a few times, but fate and good play took the heat off. I was at the old Sands when the mob still ran it and was varying between greens and one dollar chips. I'd stack a red on top of a green to keep the pile just two chips deep which tends to make my large bet look like my smallest bet (2 one dollar checks). But there were two bosses watching me carefully.

Well, at the time I was using Revere's 6 level chart and the net count was 6. I had fifty bet this time (hell, a 6 count, I had to!) got two face cards and the dealer showed a 5. The bosses were looking closely now and one was on the phone. The chart says to stand against a 5 but to split against a 6 if the count is that high. It was close enough to a 50/50 decision that I decided to split those 10s and maybe take off some of the heat from the pit.

When I split, the bosses started laughing outloud and then they both just turned away and never bothered me again. The best part was, when I split, I got two more 10s.

That was one of my most memorable plays, for sure.

I miss the old Vegas; the new one just doesn't do anything for me. If I want kids and Disneyland crap, I'll go to Disneyland.

Jeff Livingston

It would have been truly epic if you split them again.

 

[chefjeff]

It would have been truly epic if you split them again.

I overheard one of the bosses laugh and say "Why doesn't he split them again?" as he turned to walk away. I almost did that for show, but hell, I had a kick ass hand with a big bet now and had turned down the heat already and they weren't looking anymore, so I stood pat. I won, btw, the dealer busted as I remember it.

My good-looking sister was right next to me, counting, too, but she didn't get any heat. Go figure.

Jeff Livingston