CSI US Opens, Tunica and the Ultimate 10Ball...

From the Horse own mouth....

The Renfro said:
Ok I keep hearing rumors that these are all gone.....

Were these press releases, FB posts from the promoters or just pure conjecture at this point?

I know Bonus Ball damaged many people financially and caused some major issues between people and crushed some fields because of timing.... but all I have heard personally are several "maybe" we won't be having "x" again next year because of the players choosing BB over events that had been supportive over prior years......
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Everybody is entitled to opinions. Even me.

What JCIN said is pretty accurate. And you are wrong. It is a FACT that I have changed my whole outlook on professional pool and pool players. BB was a major part of that decision. The attitude of the 'pro' players is a major part of that decision.

It s not a convenient scapegoat. I am just not going to put up with the arrogance and attitudes of so many of the 'pro' players. I will be doing some kind of invitational events - with an international field (maybe 16 players or so).

I will not subject me or my staff to spend close to $90,000 (for the 3 events) and listen to the *****ing BEFORE the event because we charge registration and late fees. And then listen to Rodney Morris, who won $15,000, declare he doesn't like me and similar nonsense. It's all rather simple, if I do invitational events, I can deal with the players I feel are respectful of the game.

I can only say that the players have no one but themselves to blame. There are about a dozen US players that will NOT be playing in any more of my events. As others have said, they are not a draw, they are very high maintenance and just not worth it.

So there you have it- and that's the truth! And I'm not giving up on pool, just giving up on some of the US pro players. And it is ONLY these players. The foreigners always behave themselves.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
 
JAM said:
Mark, I have never run a tournament the size of your huge events, so I can't even comprehend the logistics of it all.

That said, about those late fees, I was thinking about this a while back, a different way to handle it. What if you require all players to sign up by a certain date. If they don't have the entry fee, they can pay the late fee only to reserve a spot. By the time the tournament comes, if they are a no-show or don't have the entry fee, then you pocket the late fee. This way, the player doesn't have to come up with a huge amount up front, if that's what they're complainnig about, but they still have to pay on time. If they pay on time, they get the late fee back. If they don't, you still keep the late fee. You do not refund the late fee, in other words, but the player can use it to reserve a spot, as long as they pay by the due date.

What do you think? :smile:
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JAM, late fees kick in when you do not pay your entry fee by a certain date. So in essence, if a player pays on time he is not subject to the fee. Obviously Morris paid late and wanted to be treated differently, and to top it off, he then bit the hand that feeded him.
 
Jam,
I appreciate your efforts, but the logistics of calking with dozens of players and them promising to pay by a certain date and then issues coming up it just gets WAY too cumbersome. That takes time and time is money.

These players are adults. We always give a lot of advance notice as to when they need to pay by. If they are late then they pay a higher price. That is the only efficient way to do it - and also fair and ethical.

I have to chuckle, these same players who think they should get paid because they are going to participate are also some of the ones who sign up at the last minute. Obviously they are not going to help the attendence - no one is gonna know they are even in the house!

Again, I am open to options but anything that requires follow through from another party is going to cause us headaches.

Mark Griffin


JAM said:
Mark, I have never run a tournament the size of your huge events, so I can't even comprehend the logistics of it all.

That said, about those late fees, I was thinking about this a while back, a different way to handle it. What if you require all players to sign up by a certain date. If they don't have the entry fee, they can pay the late fee only to reserve a spot. By the time the tournament comes, if they are a no-show or don't have the entry fee, then you pocket the late fee. This way, the player doesn't have to come up with a huge amount up front, if that's what they're complainnig about, but they still have to pay on time. If they pay on time, they get the late fee back. If they don't, you still keep the late fee. You do not refund the late fee, in other words, but the player can use it to reserve a spot, as long as they pay by the due date.

What do you think? :smile:
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Just my opinion: the pros, full of their arrogance, selfishness, and short-sightedness made several critical miscalculations that are coming home to roost. Oh, what a surprise.

They believed BB was their salvation. Or that at least in was worth burning every other bridge in the small world that is pool. So when it came time to make a choice as to whom they would support, they sacrificed sense of loyalty -- to guys like Mark and Greg -- for an empty promise that anyone with the smallest modicum of common sense could see was doomed to failure. And then they forgot, or did not care, that choices made could and would have repercussions. Beyond that, several chose to spit in the faces of guys who have done nothing but worked their asses off to build better, bigger, richer, and more stable tournaments and a tour.

They also failed to appreciate that operations like CSI and Diamond don’t need them. At the big events in Vegas, with thousands of die-hard pool players in the very same venue, the pros draw flies.

And somehow, they didn’t see that people, even pool promoters, are human. They have feelings. And when cry baby pros whine and moan about late fees, solely out of a blatantly false sense of entitlement and piss poor planning on their part, they should fully reap what they have sown.

Traveling to so many of these events I have often seen -- and once personally experienced -- the arrogance, insolence, and sense of privilege these guys laughably think is somehow their due. They believe all envy them, all want to be them, and all should aspire to be like their lousy, broke asses.

Don’t get me wrong. They’re not all like that, what with SVB and Mika giving free lessons in Vegas to the bar table players and many other good guys amongst the pro ranks doing good things or *at least* being respectful of the game and those that are trying to make pool better. But too many of them think they are owned a living and more.

I applaud Mark for taking a stand. Its about time some of the pros get a dose of reality. Certainly the blank spots on the 2014 tournament calendar will give "the pros" extra time to engage in all their other lucrative activities.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Mark Griffin said:
....the logistics of calking with dozens of players and them promising to pay by a certain date and then issues coming up it just gets WAY too cumbersome. That takes time and time is money.

These players are adults. We always give a lot of advance notice as to when they need to pay by. If they are late then they pay a higher price. That is the only efficient way to do it - and also fair and ethical.

I have to chuckle, these same players who think they should get paid because they are going to participate are also some of the ones who sign up at the last minute. Obviously they are not going to help the attendence - no one is gonna know they are even in the house!....

Mark Griffin
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Mark:

please correct me if i'm wrong, cause i'm assuming tournaments run the same as my 46 recurring shows/yr nationwide that we have to plan/budget for, but:

don't they have 1 year's notice?
 
Mark I have never understood why anyone should be allowed to register late. I would suggest a firm cutoff date so that there could be advance promotion of the event and those that are playing. Those late registers cannot draw anyone if we don't know they are going to be there. I have been to a few events and I have chosen to go based on who I knew was going to play. I have to get the most bang for my buck.
 
I would say that IF anyone should get special attention it's players like Earl, SVB, Efern, and Alex, and I don't believe they ask for it. There is always a crowd around their table at tournaments. A lot a fans of the 4 of them go to see them. Johnnyt
 
Mark, I have a lot of respect for what you have done, are doing and will do in the future. The same can be said for the guys at TAR, btw.

I love pool. I've been involved for 30 years. I've done my fair share in elevating its status. I've spent the last 4 months (and counting) working on a new project that will add to the landscape of American pool.

I understand the things you wrote about professional pool players. And I appreciate the distinction you made between foreign players, as that has been my experience as well. I choose to surround myself with like minded, honest, clean and principled people. I took a chance one time on an American player (not the only time, btw), while putting him up in my house. He repaid my generosity by literally beating the shit out of his girlfriend in front of me, and then proceeded to threaten my life. The blood stains are still in the marble hallway. I won't name him, but he's a prominent player, even on this years Mosconi cup team. Unfortunately, the American pool player is steeped in the seedy, even slimy culture of hustling (an attempt to cheat someone out of money) and drugs/alcohol. The culture has been propagated in every piece of US media, in both film and print, for decades. These players take pride in emulating this stereotype. I find it repulsive.

It was heartening to read that you haven't given up on pool, though. It's a beautiful, artistic game. We should create places to play it that are welcoming to women and children if American pool has any chance at survival.

My hats off to you, Mark. I wish nothing but the best for you and your ventures, now and in the future.
 
good post

lfigueroa said:
Just my opinion: the pros, full of their arrogance, selfishness, and short-sightedness made several critical miscalculations that are coming home to roost. Oh, what a surprise.

They believed BB was their salvation. Or that at least in was worth burning every other bridge in the small world that is pool. So when it came time to make a choice as to whom they would support, they sacrificed sense of loyalty -- to guys like Mark and Greg -- for an empty promise that anyone with the smallest modicum of common sense could see was doomed to failure. And then they forgot, or did not care, that choices made could and would have repercussions. Beyond that, several chose to spit in the faces of guys who have done nothing but worked their asses off to build better, bigger, richer, and more stable tournaments and a tour.

They also failed to appreciate that operations like CSI and Diamond don’t need them. At the big events in Vegas, with thousands of die-hard pool players in the very same venue, the pros draw flies.

And somehow, they didn’t see that people, even pool promoters, are human. They have feelings. And when cry babies pros whine and moan about late fees, solely out of a blatantly false sense of entitlement and piss poor planning on their part, they should fully reap what they have sown.
good post lou i couldnt agree more.
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john schmidt said:
lfigueroa said:
Just my opinion: the pros, full of their arrogance, selfishness, and short-sightedness made several critical miscalculations that are coming home to roost. Oh, what a surprise.

They believed BB was their salvation. Or that at least in was worth burning every other bridge in the small world that is pool. So when it came time to make a choice as to whom they would support, they sacrificed sense of loyalty -- to guys like Mark and Greg -- for an empty promise that anyone with the smallest modicum of common sense could see was doomed to failure. And then they forgot, or did not care, that choices made could and would have repercussions. Beyond that, several chose to spit in the faces of guys who have done nothing but worked their asses off to build better, bigger, richer, and more stable tournaments and a tour.

They also failed to appreciate that operations like CSI and Diamond don’t need them. At the big events in Vegas, with thousands of die-hard pool players in the very same venue, the pros draw flies.

And somehow, they didn’t see that people, even pool promoters, are human. They have feelings. And when cry babies pros whine and moan about late fees, solely out of a blatantly false sense of entitlement and piss poor planning on their part, they should fully reap what they have sown.
good post lou i couldnt agree more.
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And John, I think you're one of the good guys, too. You made quite an impression on me at grand central station, many years ago. I didn't really care for that bobby hunter cue that I bought, but i did because I didn't want you to sell your playing cue. Anyway, it was your overall decency, as a person, and your passion for 14.1, that was a major factor in deciding to revive the 14.1 world championships. I hope that mark intends to include you in future events.
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hi

lfigueroa said:
Tell me that in person, John, the next time you see me ;-)
sounds great,with all the fb and internet these days nobody talks in person anymore.ill b sure to tell u in person what i think of that last post. again i couldnt agree more with u. good luck against barton ,hes a better player but some people really have the courage to dig deep and stand up under pressure. i know for a fact what u do when its time to dig deep and show courage . now its your chance to show everybody else what i already know. later lou
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thanks randy

NYC cue dude said:
john schmidt said:
And John, I think you're one of the good guys, too. You made quite an impression on me at grand central station, many years ago. I didn't really care for that bobby hunter cue that I bought, but i did because I didn't want you to sell your playing cue. Anyway, it was your overall decency, as a person, and your passion for 14.1, that was a major factor in deciding to revive the 14.1 world championships. I hope that mark intends to include you in future events.
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i cant imagine anybody holding a grudge against american players for playing bb for gauranteed money. its just business. promoters tell us how unimportant we r and how we draw flies but then if we dont come to event they get mad at us. i dont think us pros matter and we draw flies so i dont c why anybody gets mad if we cant come to event.
i dont know why mark would b mad at me but if he is im sure we can iron it out. that cue actually was investment cue not my playing cue but anyway randy take care bud . your friend john.
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john schmidt said:
lfigueroa said:
Tell me that in person, John, the next time you see me ;-)
sounds great,with all the fb and internet these days nobody talks in person anymore.ill b sure to tell u in person what i think of that last post. again i couldnt agree more with u. good luck against barton ,hes a better player but some people really have the courage to dig deep and stand up under pressure. i know for a fact what u do when its time to dig deep and show courage . now its your chance to show everybody else what i already know. later lou
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I'm kinda full up already on the bet, but I'm sure you can get action on your opinion in the Action Room. Last time I looked a couple of guys had the widow open if you want to bet on JB. Can't wait to see what you bet. Good luck with that, John!

Lou Figueroa
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lfigueroa said:
john schmidt said:
I'm kinda full up already on the bet, but I'm sure you can get action on your opinion in the Action Room. Last time I looked a couple of guys had the widow open if you want to bet on JB. Can't wait to see what you bet. Good luck with that, John!

Lou Figueroa
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ive actually got it bet where i win money if u win or lose.thanks lou for putting money in my pockets. i owe u one champ. kuddos to u for playing,.
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lfigueroa said:
...They believed BB was their salvation. Or that at least in was worth burning every other bridge in the small world that is pool. So when it came time to make a choice as to whom they would support, they sacrificed sense of loyalty -- to guys like Mark and Greg -- for an empty promise that anyone with the smallest modicum of common sense could see was doomed to failure. And then they forgot, or did not care, that choices made could and would have repercussions. Beyond that, several chose to spit in the faces of guys who have done nothing but worked their asses off to build better, bigger, richer, and more stable tournaments and a tour.

They also failed to appreciate that operations like CSI and Diamond don’t need them. At the big events in Vegas, with thousands of die-hard pool players in the very same venue, the pros draw flies....

Lou Figueroa
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Nice post, Lou, but don't forget that these pros not only failed to support the promoters that always supported them but they failed to get behind the best new tournament on American soil this year. Badi Nazhat went deep into his own pocket to make the high-purse-money Ultimate 10-ball event happen, and the pros failed to get sufficiently behind it. The result is that the event is no longer on the pool calendar and an enthusiastic new promoter has been dissuaded from further investment in pro pool.

The history buffs among us will know that when the Romans defeated Carthage in the last of the Punic Wars, they salted the city of Carthage to ensure that nothing would grow even after they left. Bonus Ball may prove to be the salt dropped on the major American pro pool scene.

I'd be very pleased to see Bonus Ball come back from the dead, and at very least, I hope that those owed moneys are paid. Still, it's hard to imagine a happy ending.
 
sjm said:
Nice post, Lou, but don't forget that these pros not only failed to support the promoters that always supported them but they failed to get behind the best new tournament on American soil this year. Badi Nazhat went deep into his own pocket to make the high-purse-money Ultimate 10-ball event happen, and the pros failed to get sufficiently behind it. The result is that the event is no longer on the pool calendar and an enthusiastic new promoter has been dissuaded from further investment in pro pool.

The history buffs among us will know that when the Romans defeated Carthage in the last of the Punic Wars, they salted the city of Carthage to ensure that nothing would grow even after they left. Bonus Ball may prove to be the salt dropped on the major American pro pool scene.

I'd be very pleased to see Bonus Ball come back from the dead, and at very least, I hope that those owed moneys are paid. Still, it's hard to imagine a happy ending.
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Great move with the salt!! GO ROME!!!
 
sjm said:
Nice post, Lou, but don't forget that these pros not only failed to support the promoters that always supported them but they failed to get behind the best new tournament on American soil this year. Badi Nazhat went deep into his own pocket to make the high-purse-money Ultimate 10-ball event happen, and the pros failed to get sufficiently behind it. The result is that the event is no longer on the pool calendar and an enthusiastic new promoter has been dissuaded from further investment in pro pool.

The history buffs among us will know that when the Romans defeated Carthage in the last of the Punic Wars, they salted the city of Carthage to ensure that nothing would grow even after they left. Bonus Ball may prove to be the salt dropped on the major American pro pool scene.

I'd be very pleased to see Bonus Ball come back from the dead, and at very least, I hope that those owed moneys are paid. Still, it's hard to imagine a happy ending.
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Excellent point, Stu. It was a shame that there wasn't more support for Ultimate 10Ball.

But we do differ on BB -- I think that model is so flawed no good can come of it for anyone. Also, minor point, but my recollection from HS is that the Carthage story of the Romans salting the city is apocryphal. Still, your point is well taken.

Lou Figueroa
 
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