CTE aiming.

SpiderWebComm said:
Regarding edges of the OB, technically there is only one edge each side that is on the CTE line, but I understand that one's perception of variations in this edge change if one sights the various angled shots from different positions relative to the CTE line.
This is absolutely KEY. It's the key to everything, actually. Shot geometry changes when the eyes move a hair.
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Everything else is clear to me except this once concept.

Is the outside edge of the OB (the E in CTE) the edge that is parallel with the object pocket? The furthermost edge from the pocket? The spot that you would normally aim for in a standard pool shot? If so, aren't you just lining up a normal shot, moving parallel a half ball and arcing? Which would get you back to where you started, but maybe fine tune the shot somehow?

or

Is the outside edge of the OB always in line with one of the rails furthest from the pocket? This doesn't seem likely, and would seem to be a reason why people can't adjust.

I have tried both ways but still think I am getting the meaning of the CTEL wrong. I am a slow learner but usually a thorough learner. I think if I understood this BASIC part of lining up I could use the system easily. Everything else makes sense to me. And this part is no secret! I just don't understand... :(
 
dr_dave said:
All of the CTE methods and variations I have tried (from all of the posts and phone calls) work great ... as long as I also use DAM (i.e., my "visual intelligence") while I am "air pivoting." When using a "mechanical pivot" instead, if I follow the instructions I've gotten directly (from all of the posts and phone calls), the methods work only for certain shot distances and angles, and only for certain bridge lengths. Regardless, I still see the value and benefits of "aiming systems."

If you want more details than that, read my articles, the entire CTE resource page, all of the topics and subtopics on my aiming FAQ page, and my hundreds (if not thousands) of past posts on this topic on AZB and CCB. If that's still not enough for you, you will have to wait for my "memoirs" to come out. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
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So, you really have no interest in figuring out where you went wrong.
 
Elephant Man said:
In fact I would just be happy to see a CTEL diagram that shows the pocket...
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Check my blog. The outermost edge alignment is a reverse CTE from a perspective of the first addressable CB edge (from either direction, thick or thin).

The pocket angle doesn't matter because it rotates around the OB in proportion to the CB - only different edges are addressed.
 
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1-tip pivots

I want to comment further on 1-tip pivots. Hal was firm in saying the pivot length doesn't matter; however, always focused on 1/2 ball pivots with me (for repeatability and ease).

However, I'm NOT sure if a 1-tip (or whatever) offset with cue alignment parallel to the CTEL (with pivot along shot arc) is equivalent to 1/2 ball offset parallel to the CTEL (with pivot along shot arc) to 1 tip shy of center to the center itself. It might be - but I haven't worked it out yet. I hightly doubt it (thinking it through in my head), but I thought I should say that because I mentioned 1 tip offset as being bad for beginners --- and I'm firm with that. However, for more advanced players, I'm not sure of the 1-tip offset angle of attack into the CB.

I'll figure that out tonight and report back. Just wanted to let everyone know I don't know and didn't wanna back-track later if I found out differently.
 
Elephant Man said:
Everything else is clear to me except this once concept.

Is the outside edge of the OB (the E in CTE) the edge that is parallel with the object pocket? The furthermost edge from the pocket? The spot that you would normally aim for in a standard pool shot? If so, aren't you just lining up a normal shot, moving parallel a half ball and arcing? Which would get you back to where you started, but maybe fine tune the shot somehow?

or

Is the outside edge of the OB always in line with one of the rails furthest from the pocket? This doesn't seem likely, and would seem to be a reason why people can't adjust.

I have tried both ways but still think I am getting the meaning of the CTEL wrong. I am a slow learner but usually a thorough learner. I think if I understood this BASIC part of lining up I could use the system easily. Everything else makes sense to me. And this part is no secret! I just don't understand... :(
Click to expand...

The outside edge around the equator that you can see - I think?
step2es.jpg
 
Spidey,

I'd be happy to add some of your comments to the CTE resource page, and I'd be happy to change your posting that is already quoted there. However, I'm hoping you can clarify a few things. And please don't start the whole "spoon feeding" sob story again. I just want you to explain what you really mean by a few of your phrases and statements. I'd rather not add things to the resource page that create more questions than answers. Although, I am happy to post a clear procedure, explanation, and illustrations for your version of CTE if you want to provide it. I don't want you to keep explaining how other versions (e.g., the ones already posted) don't work. We already know they don't work without "adjustments." I'd rather you focus on clearly explaining how your version does work.

I hope it doesn't offend you ... that's not my intent.

Regards
Dave

SpiderWebComm said:
For a “thick hit” (a small cut angle less than 15 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
CTE is based on a 1/2 ball pivot. Now, you can offset much less, but you gotta be on a different radius based on your bridge spot (from the CB edge line) that might be closer to the center. Small pivots are for developed, advanced CTE players. Players who utilize small pivots have a developed arcing technique.
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That sounds fancy, but the exact meaning is not clear, IMO. I think "effective pivot length" (see the resource page) explains some of the things you are describing here, but i'm not sure. It seems like all of this stuff (the subtle changes in alignment and pivot needed to pocket a wide range of shots) must require judgment and "feel" based on "visual intelligence" (e.g., the ability to "see" the "angle of the shot" or "required line of aim").

SpiderWebComm said:
If you rotate your cue in your bridge (which i'm guessing most do here), you're going to miss a LOT of shots.
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... unless you vary your bridge length and/or "rotate" or "tilt" or "shift" or "deform" the bridge hand during the pivot (see Colin's animation).

SpiderWebComm said:
3. Pivot the cue until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Incorrect. You'll miss everything you shoot at if you do this. You must pivot your cue with consideration of the arc required for the shot (see shot circle).
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If you are not pivoting to the center of the CB, then how do you decide where to stop? And if you don't pivot to center-ball, you will be adding English to the shot. If so, how do you compensate for the resulting squirt, swerve, and throw?

SpiderWebComm said:
For a “half-ball hit” (close to 30 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue along this line.
3. Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge (CTE) line.
Everything above is incorrect. You ALWAYS pivot on every shot in CTE - EVERY SINGLE SHOT. Perform a thick pivot.
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Again, without a diagram or detailed explanation, this doesn't make much sense.

SpiderWebComm said:
from Colin Colenso:
1. Stare down the CTE line with the cue tip to the left.
Not true.
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There seem to be many variations and interpretations of "CTE" out there. You obviously don't agree with the versions posted on the resource page. If you were to describe, illustrate, and demonstrate your version of "CTE," I would be happy to add it to the page. Until then, all we have to go on is what has already been provided by others.

SpiderWebComm said:
from SpiderWebComm (Dave Segal):

- You should never sight directly down the CTEL (center to edge line). Your head should always be on one side or the other. I like pretending the CTEL is a vertical plane - my body leans against it, one side or the other.

I'm more educated now than I was then. I don't like to lean on the CTEL. I like to lean on the outermost edge line (reverse CTE line)
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Again, I don't think it is really clear what this means, but I will add it to your quote when I get a chance.

SpiderWebComm said:
from Colin Colenso:
Any cue that moves or turns from one position to another can be described as having been pivoted at some distinct point. On CTE shots this pivot point must be behind the CB and usually it is behind the bridge hand so the shape of an arc, projected to the front of the shot circle would always be flatter than the actual shot circle arc.
That's true, I think, if you pivot straight from your back hand. If you hip-pivot, shoulder/torso pivot or air pivot - it's not true.

Hence, it seems more like the shot circle is an approximate visualization method, like, as you've said, scraping your tip along a distant window. This is fine, but it's not very quantifiable or systematic, other than it would seem to indicate that you can intuitively sense the nature of the turn and that the turn pivots noticeably closer to the CB with closer distance shots.
It's definitely a visualization method, for sure. This is key to the entire system. Either you can arc properly or you can't. I think, however, it's an easily visualized method and can range from kinda accurate (rank cte beginner) to hyper-accurate (for a seasoned cte player). I think the learning curve for players (regarding pivoting) is quite fast.
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Again, you are creating a different "effective pivot length" by how you pivot (see the resource page for more info).

SpiderWebComm said:
Regarding edges of the OB, technically there is only one edge each side that is on the CTE line, but I understand that one's perception of variations in this edge change if one sights the various angled shots from different positions relative to the CTE line.
This is absolutely KEY. It's the key to everything, actually. Shot geometry changes when the eyes move a hair.
Click to expand...
As with the pivot, it seems like the alignment and eye position needs to be just right to get the right amount of pivot for the "effective pivot length" you are using for a given shot.

SpiderWebComm said:
from Jal:

[The dependence on pivot length] is why it's not an exact system and why a majority of shots will be missed unless some intuitive adjustment is made. However you have the stick aligned prior to pivoting, the correct pivot point is on a line from the center of the ghostball through the center of the cueball. Where that line crosses the long axis of the cue, is the place to pivot.

Of course, if you can picture where the ghostball is located with sufficient accuracy to make the shot, on the face of it, there seems to be little point in doing the pre-alignment/pivoting procedure. That's related to the main bone of contention between those who are critical of these types of systems, and those who support them: unless you can come up with some procedure for determining the pivot distance that's not tied to shot geometry (impossible), the system(s) are not exact and rely on the experience and judgment of the player to make the final crucial adjustment, consciously or subconsciously.

That's not to deny that many have found them useful.
This is true if someone rotates their cue in their bridge, but they shouldn't nor is it proper procedure. Determining the shot arc pivot is instantly learned and mastered over a few months. When mastered, it becomes the basis for everything.

Important: ALWAYS pivot on every shot (as pre-shot routine). Forget identifying angles as they don't matter beyond "thick or thin."
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This is where it sounds like magic again. If you don't take into account how much you need to cut the ball, and change your alignment and/or pivot to adjust to the amount of cut needed, your version of CTE sounds too good to be true.

Regards,
Dave
 
LAMas said:
The outside edge around the equator that you can see - I think?
View attachment 134387
Click to expand...

That outside edge is parallel with the long rail, and would never change no matter where you place the shot. That is what bothers me. And the edge that I want to be the outside edge, the edge opposite the pocket, is just the normal aim contact point. That bothers me. Off to re-re-re-re-read some stuff...
 
cookie man said:
dr_dave said:
All of the CTE methods and variations I have tried (from all of the posts and phone calls) work great ... as long as I also use DAM (i.e., my "visual intelligence") while I am "air pivoting." When using a "mechanical pivot" instead, if I follow the instructions I've gotten directly (from all of the posts and phone calls), the methods work only for certain shot distances and angles, and only for certain bridge lengths. Regardless, I still see the value and benefits of "aiming systems."

If you want more details than that, read my articles, the entire CTE resource page, all of the topics and subtopics on my aiming FAQ page, and my hundreds (if not thousands) of past posts on this topic on AZB and CCB. If that's still not enough for you, you will have to wait for my "memoirs" to come out. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
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So, you really have no interest in figuring out where you went wrong.
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I already know where I went wrong. With the shots I missed, where I wasn't using DAM, my exact initial alignment, or my exact "effective pivot length" was not right for the amount of cut needed on those shots.

Regards,
Dave
 
Dr Dave, I think your confusion is with the whole "Pivot Point" you are after. Out of the terms you suggested, I think "Shift" is the best way to describe the post aim-alignment. But I was wrong once before. In grade school. When my feet slipped off the pedals doing an Evel Kinevel impersonation... Ouch.
 
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

I'd be happy to add some of your comments to the CTE resource page, and I'd be happy to change your posting that is already quoted there. However, I'm hoping you can clarify a few things. And please don't start the whole "spoon feeding" sob story again. I just want you to explain what you really mean by a few of your phrases and statements. I'd rather not add things to the resource page that create more questions than answers. Although, I am happy to post a clear procedure, explanation, and illustrations for your version of CTE if you want to provide it. I don't want you to keep explaining how other versions (e.g., the ones already posted) don't work. We already know they don't work without "adjustments." I'd rather you focus on clearly explaining how your version does work.

I hope it doesn't offend you ... that's not my intent.

Regards
Dave

That sounds fancy, but the exact meaning is not clear, IMO. I think "effective pivot length" (see the resource page) explains some of the things you are describing here, but i'm not sure. It seems like all of this stuff (the subtle changes in alignment and pivot needed to pocket a wide range of shots) must require judgment and "feel" based on "visual intelligence" (e.g., the ability to "see" the "angle of the shot" or "required line of aim").

... unless you vary your bridge length and/or "rotate" or "tilt" or "shift" or "deform" the bridge hand during the pivot (see Colin's animation).

If you are not pivoting to the center of the CB, then how do you decide where to stop? And if you don't pivot to center-ball, you will be adding English to the shot. If so, how do you compensate for the resulting squirt, swerve, and throw?

Again, without a diagram or detailed explanation, this doesn't make much sense.

There seem to be many variations and interpretations of "CTE" out there. You obviously don't agree with the versions posted on the resource page. If you were to describe, illustrate, and demonstrate your version of "CTE," I would be happy to add it to the page. Until then, all we have to go on is what has already been provided by others.

Again, I don't think it is really clear what this means, but I will add it to your quote when I get a chance.

Again, you are creating a different "effective pivot length" by how you pivot (see the resource page for more info).

As with the pivot, it seems like the alignment and eye position needs to be just right to get the right amount of pivot for the "effective pivot length" you are using for a given shot.

This is where it sounds like magic again. If you don't take into account how much you need to cut the ball, and change your alignment and/or pivot to adjust to the amount of cut needed, your version of CTE sounds too good to be true.

Regards,
Dave
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No offense taken. I'm just correcting bad imagery, that's all. I'm going to post really detailed stuff - just not yet (for reasons I've already stated). When I do, it'll be on my blog. If you want to reference my blog in your CTE section - that'll be fine. In the meantime, what I posted is no more cryptic or less cryptic than what's already there---except for the fact it's accurate. You don't have to update your section, people can compare that post to your section if they feel they're not making balls.

In regards to above, you must ALWAYS take into account the CTEL location and alignment based on the outermost edge line. So, it's not magic.

The outermost edge line is always on your 12:00 to 6:00 line in your field of vision - it has no bearing on the rails.

Dave
 
Scott Lee said:
LAMas...In your diagram, there is NO way the OB will travel the direction of your arrow, with the starting point of the CB, and the contact point between the CB and OB, that you show. Physically impossible.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Agreed. The throw would make it push forward of that line, much less angle. CTE as a system only works up to a certain limit where throw ends the system. You can't cut 90 degrees with true CTE. I'm not saying you can't come close, but it'll require two different pivots: a pivot along the shot arc to CB center which takes you to the throw limit. Once that line is locked in, you must bridge pivot (bhe - totally different arc, btw) to max outside english. Depending on the length and speed of the shot and angle of the cue, this has varying effectiveness and is not within the confines of the system (because it's not center axis).
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm going to post really detailed stuff - just not yet (for reasons I've already stated). When I do, it'll be on my blog. If you want to reference my blog in your CTE section - that'll be fine.
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I look forward to seeing and linking to that when it is ready. Could you provide the URL again, so I and others will know where to look?

Thanks,
Dave
 
Elephant Man said:
That outside edge is parallel with the long rail, and would never change no matter where you place the shot. That is what bothers me. And the edge that I want to be the outside edge, the edge opposite the pocket, is just the normal aim contact point. That bothers me. Off to re-re-re-re-read some stuff...
Click to expand...

That's the beauty of this method, the "EDGE" is always there for the eye to see. All of the other points inside of the OB like the contact point that you need the CB to hit to send it to the pocket are approximations - except for a 90 degree cut which would be the same "EDGE".

Now, the shifting of the cue to the side from the original CTE set up is counter intuative before the pivot and after the pivot,, it becomes more cogent for you will be sending the CB on it's way to contact the OB on the right side as in my diagram.

The rub is that if you change the location of the bridge or if the OB is moved further or closer, then all bets are off.

If you can shoot with the Ghost Ball method, then this is as was said earlier by other experts - not necessary.

I imagine that this will help those that lack spatial comprehension and can't find the correct side to aim to achieve a given cut to the pocket.
 
Elephant Man said:
That outside edge is parallel with the long rail, and would never change no matter where you place the shot. That is what bothers me. And the edge that I want to be the outside edge, the edge opposite the pocket, is just the normal aim contact point. That bothers me. Off to re-re-re-re-read some stuff...
Click to expand...

That's only true if you're looking straight up the center line of the table. Otherwise, the outside edge shifts depending on one's perspective.
 
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