CTE aiming.

[SpiderWebComm]

Ok, that tells me what I need to know, namely that I don't need to waste any more time on it Thank god I didn't blow money on this stuff.

Funny, I haven't looked at a pocket in years (other than to make sure the path to it wasn't blocked). All that matters is the CTEL/pivot.

I think you guys already have this figured out, so good luck. :thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

CreeDo

Spidey said that the OB has an infinite amount of edges and the outermost edge will change with your perspective/location/angle. I think this is the reference point. As the CB and OB change their relationship to each other a new edge/angle to the pocket appears.

The 1/2 ball offset reminds me of a mirror image shot or when you have a ball close to a rail blocked by another ball. You measure the distance the ball you want to hit is off the rail and double it. It gives you a point in space to aim at off the table, kind of like the offset. In a way, is the pivot similar to the CB coming off the rail?

I have several other ideas that might really get us lost. I'll save them for later.:grin-square:

 

[CreeDo]

CreeDo

Spidey said that the OB has an infinite amount of edges and the outermost edge will change with your perspective/location/angle. I think this is the reference point. As the CB and OB change their relationship to each other a new edge/angle to the pocket appears.

Mikjary (and others):

1. It's true that there are infinite edges, but his method for choosing your reference point never mentions the pocket. It only references the object ball. So if you move the pocket 4 inches to the right and change absolutely nothing else... what part of the CTE process is done differently to adjust for this?

--

Spidey implies he doesn't even look at or care where the pocket is. Let's stop and think about that for a second. If you draped a curtain across half the table, stretching from side pocket to side pocket, so that spidey could only see his half of the table... let's say he has a cue ball and an OB in random locations on that half of the table. He wants to cut into the unseen far corner pocket. Does anyone here think that he's going to make all of his cuts?

If so, spidey... please stop by linens'n'things on the way home from work sometime and get the curtain. Roll the balls to random locations and drill them into the corner pockets that you can't even see. You could quit your job and go on the road, win some great prop bets... maybe even win trick shot magic on ESPN. You could retire.

2. Spidey's instructions talk as if there's multiple ways to aim the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball, citing the infinite points along the equator of the OB.

But viewed from above, there is clearly only one possible line going from the visual edge of the OB to the visual center of the CB. If you choose ANY different point along the OB equator, you must move your eyeballs to the left or right to make that point the visual edge of the OB. When you move your eyes out of the one possible line, you will find that you're no longer able to sight through the visual center of the cueball.

In the diagram below, I cannot pick points A or B as possible alternate edges. If I chose either of these points and then move my perspective so that they're on the very edge of the OB visually... not only will I not be seeing the center of the CB, the CB will have rotated entirely out of my field of vision.

3. This system is supposed to be using concrete, no-guesswork-involved visual cues, but already spidey has mentioned positioning the cue parallel to the CTE line, or pivoting along an arc that the CTE line is part of.

The CTE line is an imaginary line that is NOWHERE NEAR your final shooting line or bridge position. You can see the line easily enough when you are sighting directly along it. But then your head must move to plant your bridge (and possibly move your feet). As you line up the shot and plant your bridge hand, you are expected to keep the imaginary, invisible line in mind... and then imagine a NEW invisible line that is parallel (or worse, rotated a certain way in relation to) the FIRST invisible line.

HOW is this easier to "see" than a simple ghost ball or contact point on the OB?

I'm only writing in this thread to encourage others to stop wasting their time. I'm actually kind of mad and disappointed I wasted so much of my own time. I should have hounded spidey right from the start about this obvious HUGE HOLE in this so-called "system". And I feel bad for the other people who think they're missing out on some secret... following along in these threads hoping for another sip of the kool-aid.

If you read nothing else, think hard on this one single point:
YOU NEED TO KNOW WHERE THE POCKET IS TO AIM THE BALL INTO IT.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Mikjary (and others):

1. It's true that there are infinite edges, but his method for choosing your reference point never mentions the pocket. It only references the object ball. So if you move the pocket 4 inches to the right and change absolutely nothing else... what part of the CTE process is done differently to adjust for this?

--

Spidey implies he doesn't even look at or care where the pocket is. Let's stop and think about that for a second. If you draped a curtain across half the table, stretching from side pocket to side pocket, so that spidey could only see his half of the table... let's say he has a cue ball and an OB in random locations on that half of the table. He wants to cut into the unseen far corner pocket. Does anyone here think that he's going to make all of his cuts?

If so, spidey... please stop by linens'n'things on the way home from work sometime and get the curtain. Roll the balls to random locations and drill them into the corner pockets that you can't even see. You could quit your job and go on the road, win some great prop bets... maybe even win trick shot magic on ESPN. You could retire.

2. Spidey's instructions talk as if there's multiple ways to aim the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball, citing the infinite points along the equator of the OB.

But viewed from above, there is clearly only one possible line going from the visual edge of the OB to the visual center of the CB. If you choose ANY different point along the OB equator, you must move your eyeballs to the left or right to make that point the visual edge of the OB. When you move your eyes out of the one possible line, you will find that you're no longer able to sight through the visual center of the cueball.

In the diagram below, I cannot pick points A or B as possible alternate edges. If I chose either of these points and then move my perspective so that they're on the very edge of the OB visually... not only will I not be seeing the center of the CB, the CB will have rotated entirely out of my field of vision.

3. This system is supposed to be using concrete, no-guesswork-involved visual cues, but already spidey has mentioned positioning the cue parallel to the CTE line, or pivoting along an arc that the CTE line is part of.

The CTE line is an imaginary line that is NOWHERE NEAR your final shooting line or bridge position. You can see the line easily enough when you are sighting directly along it. But then your head must move to plant your bridge (and possibly move your feet). As you line up the shot and plant your bridge hand, you are expected to keep the imaginary, invisible line in mind... and then imagine a NEW invisible line that is parallel (or worse, rotated a certain way in relation to) the FIRST invisible line.

HOW is this easier to "see" than a simple ghost ball or contact point on the OB?

I'm only writing in this thread to encourage others to stop wasting their time. I'm actually kind of mad and disappointed I wasted so much of my own time. I should have hounded spidey right from the start about this obvious HUGE HOLE in this so-called "system". And I feel bad for the other people who think they're missing out on some secret... following along in these threads hoping for another sip of the kool-aid.

If you read nothing else, think hard on this one single point:
YOU NEED TO KNOW WHERE THE POCKET IS TO AIM THE BALL INTO IT.

I never said I can make 100% of all shots because I stroke like a retard. What I do know is I can stop by linens and things and drap it across my table and play "pig" with you for $50 a ball and bust your azz. I hit my shots hard so make sure you get the drape out of the way before my shit flies in the pocket, ok?

You should read dcsquared cte math thread--- outside of the tip offset and bridge lenght, it gives you the foundational information why the pocket doesn't matter. I dunno, maybe a few people didn't get it when they looked at it. Also, bridging from a static point--- the bridge circle and shot circle results are NOT the same.

Don't be like PJ--- try to bet $1000 that the bridge had to be the pivot point, setup a time to meet with me and then MIA (because he was about to lose $1000, his cue and perma banning). I'm not trying to say I know it all with this stuff, but when it comes to this particular topic, I do. So, for everyone in internet land who thinks the bridge has to be the pivot point - pm me and we'll meet up. We'll chalk up a line around my bridge and we'll make a hash mark where it touches my hand. After I make a long distance shot, you can put a mechanical bridge on the pre-pivot line and at the hash mark and see if you're able to hit the ball at all let alone make it after the pivot to center.

I think your last post, Creedo, was not only disrespectful but clueless to the highest degree. Sticking your head out like that based on incomplete information will get your azz busted. Sincerely, Common F'ing Sense.

P.S.
In your diagram above, which CB center are you referring to after you move your eyes? Just curious. *rolling my eyes*

 

[dr_dave]

I'm getting hung up on this too. I'm seeing contradictions.

If your bridge is the center of a circle, whether that circle extends to the CB, the OB, or the neighbor's window... you are pivoting within the SAME CIRCLE. Furthermore, your bridge is by definition the pivot point if you're calling the bridge the center of the circle.

If the pivot point happens somewhere further back, like maybe around the joint of the cue (which dave has implied in his video) then the bridge is NOT the center of the circle (the joint of the cue is). Or it's a center of SOME circle, but it's totally irrelevant because you're not supposed to pivot from it. The bridge just rides along while the entire stick pivots around its joint.

I don't see the need for the confusion and seemingly useless distinctions between the various circles. From what I understand it's this simple:

1. Line up your stick correctly at the start, somewhere PARALLEL to the CTEL line. Apparently the offset is a half ball, i.e. it will end up edge to edge and then you rotate til it's center to edge.

Correct lineup means bridge placement (which we know is 10"-12"). It ALSO means using the shot circle to decide how you're planting your body, as explained here: http://spiderwebcomm.blogspot.com/2010/04/center-to-edge-center-to-which-edge-as.html

2. Using point X as the CENTRAL PIVOT POINT, pivot the cue until you are visually pointing at the center of the cue ball.

All we need to know now is... what is point X? Don't say "along such and such arc" .. just tell me what is the center of the clockface. The base of the turrent. Where the 4 helicopter blades meet. The hub of the wagon wheel.

What is the EXACT POINT around which the pivot happens? If you say it's somewhere on the cue behind the bridge but you're not sure exactly where that's fine. I can find it. If you say it's your hips and the point is somewhere in your small intestine, that's fine. If you admit it's sort of a matter of feel, that's fine too. Or if it's classified that's fine too.

I just want some straight answer about what the literal (dime-sized) CENTER of the pivoting action is.

This is what I refer to as the "effective pivot length" in my CTE resource page, which I have recently revised and improved.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Correct lineup means bridge placement (which we know is 10"-12").

Bridge length is immaterial if you are doing an "air pivot" (i.e., you can use whatever bridge length you want). And even with a "mechanical pivot," with the bridge hand placed down before the "pivot," the effective pivot length can still be changed (see the explanation and animation here).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Suppose I'm doing an on-the-table mechanical pivot, not an air pivot. So I'm holding the shaft fairly snugly in my left (bridge) hand, which is on the table. No matter where I move my right hand -- no matter what arc I try to trace with the tip of the cue -- the shaft is going to turn/pivot around the point where it is being held in the left hand unless I also somehow move my left hand, or part of it, to allow the shaft to somehow recognize some other pivot point. Is that what is happening?

The true" pivot point" can be changed quite a bit with only a subtle tilt of the bridge hand, so an "effective pivot length" much longer than the bridge length is possible (see the animation and description here).

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Bridge length is immaterial if you are doing an "air pivot" (i.e., you can use whatever bridge length you want). And even with a "mechanical pivot," with the bridge hand placed down before the "pivot," the effective pivot length can still be changed (see the explanation and animation here).

Regards,
Dave

Hey now. Is Dr. Dave of all people stepping in to correct CTE stuff?? I was about to blow up for you copying and pasting content off my blog and onto your website without my permission, but maybe I'll let that slide since you're saving me a headache this morning.

In the future though, please don't copy content from my website to yours without permission Contrary to what you think, it's not public domain. Otherwise, it'd be legal for Microsoft to copy what Apple or Google has on their site word-for-word to theirs because it's public domain too, right? Link to it all you want, but don't copy/paste the content over.

I think you should remove EVERYONE's quotes in your CTE section and come up with a unified "What Dr. Dave Thinks" CTE section.

Now don't go running off deleting everything in a frenzy; I said "in the future..."

- Dave

 

[dr_dave]

1. It's true that there are infinite edges, but his method for choosing your reference point never mentions the pocket. It only references the object ball. So if you move the pocket 4 inches to the right and change absolutely nothing else... what part of the CTE process is done differently to adjust for this?

This is the same question I have been asking in many different ways for many years of all of the CTE proponents, and I still haven't gotten an answer satisfactory to me. But people do seem to use CTE quite effectively, so maybe they are just sensing where the pocket is (even if they don't look at it), or maybe they just have a feel for how much cut they need to pocket the ball. This sense or feel could influence their "pivot" in an intangible way that is difficult to describe or illustrate. BTW, I am being serious here ... I don't intend any disrespect.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Spidey implies he doesn't even look at or care where the pocket is. Let's stop and think about that for a second. If you draped a curtain across half the table, stretching from side pocket to side pocket, so that spidey could only see his half of the table... let's say he has a cue ball and an OB in random locations on that half of the table. He wants to cut into the unseen far corner pocket. Does anyone here think that he's going to make all of his cuts?

I think he would have an excellent chance to pocket the balls because he is a great shooter. Also, if you can see one rail and two pockets, you can have a very good feel for where all of the other pockets are.

Also, if you have worked with a system enough and have a really good feel for the alignment and "effective pivot length" needed for shots from different positions and angles, all of this can become "hard wired" and natural.

Regardless, you don't need to see or look at a pocket to know where it is.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think he would have an excellent chance to pocket the balls because he is a great shooter. Also, if you can see one rail and two pockets, you can have a very good feel for where all of the other pockets are.

Also, if you have worked with a system enough and have a really good feel for the alignment and "effective pivot length" needed for shots from different positions and angles, all of this can become "hard wired" and natural.

Regardless, you don't need to see or look at a pocket to know where it is.

Regards,
Dave

Now you're knocking my action, geez what is it with you today????

 

[dr_dave]

Now you're knocking my action, geez what is it with you today????

I guess I'm in a an extra good mood today because I just sent VEPS-V off to the replicator. So I am finally done ... woo hoo!!! VEPS was a two-year long project with lots of hard work and a ridiculous amount of time. It feels really good to finally be done. Sorry to put another "plug" in your CTE thread ... I couldn't resist. :wink:

Anyway, getting back to CTE, it has always been my intent to try to help improve understanding. I know I have been a little disrespectful at times, as you have been, but I think we share a common goal. We just go about it differently. But don't worry ... I still luv ya. :grin-loving:

Regards,
Dave

PS: Shouldn't PJ be free by now? You must have extreme withdrawal symptoms from missing your "interaction" with PJ.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

These threads suck without his curt interjections. Beating up on you isn't any fun

 

[dr_dave]

These threads suck without his curt interjections. Beating up on you isn't any fun

Agreed.

If the AZB "powers" are listening ....

PLEASE FREE PJ!!!

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I think you should remove EVERYONE's quotes in your CTE section and come up with a unified "What Dr. Dave Thinks" CTE section.

I think it is clear "What Dr. Dave Thinks" on my CTE page. I don't think the page (or any of my FAQ pages) would be as useful if I just included stuff that I think. Why do you want me to remove quotes and links to stuff from others?

Regards,
Dave

 

[Mikjary]

1. It's true that there are infinite edges, but his method for choosing your reference point never mentions the pocket. It only references the object ball. So if you move the pocket 4 inches to the right and change absolutely nothing else... what part of the CTE process is done differently to adjust for this?

2. Spidey's instructions talk as if there's multiple ways to aim the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball, citing the infinite points along the equator of the OB.

If you read nothing else, think hard on this one single point:
YOU NEED TO KNOW WHERE THE POCKET IS TO AIM THE BALL INTO IT.

Creedo

First thing I want to say I do not use CTE at this point in my pool shooting career. Second thing is I am feeling the same frustration you are with all these cryptic tidbits I'm reading. I'm looking at it all the same way and asking the hard questions in my own mind. Is this a warmed over aiming system that falls apart under the microscope? I'm not trying to defend or disprove CTE, just understand it.

One of the key things that hit home with me was the use of the word "perspective". You mention moving the pocket 4 inches to the right (we can't move the pocket , so for clarity let's say we move the OB 4 inches to the left). We are looking at a different "edge" if we are still standing in the same spot. Our viewpoint/angle has changed when we look at the OB. So has the angle to the pocket.

An easy way I use to gain perspective is to move forward or backward when I want to look at something. The CB gets bigger and smaller as it is moved toward you or away from you. The OB does the same. The edge you perceive will change accordingly and so does the ghost ball contact point.

I'm a contractor and was asked to build a deck overlooking the Mississippi River by an elderly couple. They weren't very mobile and voiced some concerns about the handrail being in their line of sight as they sat on the deck. I explained that by sitting back farther away from the handrail they would gain perspective. In other words the handrail would appear smaller as they moved further away from it. They ended up with a great view.

When you shoot shots down the center of the table as the OB gets farther away it gets smaller and you have to change your aiming point/edge. If it moves closer to you, you must change again. That's what I think is the pocket reference. Just like picking out the spot for the ghost ball, you pick out the edge and apply the CTE fmagic.

Hope you don't mind me chopping up your post, but I tried to address one point. I want to look at the 1/2 ball offset next and its relationship to the the pocket reference. Somehow it incorporates the ghost ball with the pivot being the "feel" for the shot. This I believe is the key to the system. A consistent swivel with your bridge and your stroke.

 

[CreeDo]

No worries mikjary, I know you're trying to learn and I don't mind when people address anything in my posts that may not be right. To be honest that's better than having the parts that ARE right ignored

One of the key things that hit home with me was the use of the word "perspective". You mention moving the pocket 4 inches to the right (we can't move the pocket , so for clarity let's say we move the OB 4 inches to the left). We are looking at a different "edge" if we are still standing in the same spot. Our viewpoint/angle has changed when we look at the OB. So has the angle to the pocket.

I too fell for the red herring of the talk of perspective. But if you dig through spider's posts (and I truly did) you will find no references to pockets. He makes vague talk of perspective, but with no mention of the pocket location... all you're doing is getting different perspectives on how to drive the ball into a rail. There is no hidden trigonometry built into the process that somehow calculates where the pocket is without making it obvious.

You will never ever find the ghost ball contact point if you only have these 3 pieces of information:
1. The CB
2. The OB
3. Your pivot.

It simply can't happen. You need the pocket. These 3 things cannot magically find the pocket for you. Here's how you'll see it: don't pretend we moved the OB 4 inches left. Pretend we moved both CB and OB 4 inches left.

Do I choose a different CTE line? Why would I? None of the directions say "use the ghostball contact point or the position of the pocket when choosing your CTE line."

Do I use a different pivot? Why would I? None of the directions say "base your pivot on where the pocket/ghostball contact point are for this shot"

There is a different angle to go into the pocket at this point, but otherwise the relationship between the balls, the bridge plant, and your perspective are the same. If any of them changes using, it needs to be spelled out HOW and WHY they change.

The intentionally vague wording of various CTE posts implies you somehow step into the correct approach line to set up your shot, and then pivot to the aiming line. But how would you know that correct line that sets up the pivot? Spidey's blog gives a method but it absolutely doesn't reference the pocket. So we moved the balls 4 inches left, repeated the process in the blog, pivoted the exact same way as before and... no surprise... drove the ball into the rail, 4 inches left of where it was supposed to go.

---

I don't think spidey's a bad guy, I can tell he sincerely believes in this stuff. He's not trying to send you on a snipe hunt. But I'm here participating in this useless bloated thread to tell you that you're absolutely wasting your time. Without knowing the location of the pocket, you cannot have an aiming system. Merely knowing that it's a "thick hit", which has about 30 different possible angles, isn't accurate enough. The vague hints on perspective aren't accurate enough either.

It works for him because his subconscious has forced it to work. He sees that pocket out of the corner of his eye and pivots the shot until it looks like it will go into the hole. He put a thousand hours into aiming, and he got results. You will also get results if you put a thousand hours into aiming, and you can get twice as many shots in those thousand hours by throwing away the time-wasting pivot nonsense ahead of time.

In fact, if you focus on delivering the CB to a chosen aiming point perfectly, you will get much much better than if you worry about choosing just the right aiming point. It's not hard to choose or visualize. It's hard to deliver the cue ball there to within a couple of millimeters.

 

[cookie man]

Creedo, you are wrong. As a Cte player I look at the pocket only to determine whether its a thick or thin shot(cte lingo). Moving the ball 4 inches only could change the shot from thick to thin or vice versa. I know it probably sounds crazy but its true and it works.

 

[CreeDo]

and let's say I move it 4 inches from, let's say a 15 degree thick hit to a 20 degree thick hit?

Or, how about a 50 degree thin hit to a 70 degree thin hit?

I mean, let's just be 100% honest. You look at the pocket at some point. And as you line up and aim, it's in your peripheral vision. You let that view of it tweak how you line up your pivot. It's ok, just let it out. You can admit it. Nothing shameful in admitting you look at the pocket at some point during your shooting process, lol. Everyone else in the world does. I already knock CTE to the absolute maximum that I can. You can't make me think less of it by admitting it

 

[cookie man]

and let's say I move it 4 inches from, let's say a 15 degree thick hit to a 20 degree thick hit?

Or, how about a 50 degree thin hit to a 70 degree thin hit?

I mean, let's just be 100% honest. You look at the pocket at some point. And as you line up and aim, it's in your peripheral vision. You let that view of it tweak how you line up your pivot. It's ok, just let it out. You can admit it. Nothing shameful in admitting you look at the pocket at some point during your shooting process, lol. Everyone else in the world does. I already knock CTE to the absolute maximum that I can. You can't make me think less of it by admitting it

You want me to say I look at the pocket, I do, so what. I still pivot to center of CB and there is no tweaking allowed. You pivot to center CB, if you tweak after that, you miss the shot. Have you ever even shot a ball with CTE?