Cue Ball Control is Overrated!!!

[Cameron Smith]

It really depends on what we mean by shotmaking. If we're talking about being comfortable with long shots at difficult but makeable angles, then yes you really need to have these shots in your repetoire. But these shots are more for creating an opening for a run or recovering from poor position. You can only pot them from lampshades for so long before it catches up to you. We have all seen top players make impossible shot after impossible shot only to fail on his last couple balls. Position play is everything in pool and snooker, it's what makes a player consistent.

Snooker is a great example, I know lots of great shotmakers who are never a threat to run more than 20 points. They keep losing position and have to play safe. You can't consistently make more than 30 breaks without control over the cueball. Similar to 14.1, you can be a great shotmaker but it will catch up to you after 30-40 balls. You can't be a 100 ball runner whilst playing zone position.

Now, if we are talking about four rail banks, trick shots, masse's and other 20-60% shots. Practice those if you like, but you'll sell out more games than you'll win with them.

 

[BasementDweller]

Hell, name the best barbox players and I promise you they are also tops on the big table...

And absolutely the best barbox players are the ones that control the CB best.

SVB, best eightball bar box player... best CB control on the barbox.

Jaden

Okay I'll name one - Jason Kirkwood.

Yes, he can play on the big table. I would guess at the shortstop level. But last I heard he doesn't play as good on the big table as he does on the bar table. And as a matter of fact, he said flat out that he didn't pocket balls good enough on th big table to play with the big guns (this was quite a few years back so he may have a different opinion now).

 

[Scaramouche]

Cue ball control depends on the situation.
Most of the time you are trying to place the ball in an area where the shot is easy.
Pin point positioning is not requried.
You are trying to avoid those areas on the table where the next shot is low percentage.
There are usually multiple ways to attain position.
Most of the time there is a large margin of error.
How many times have you seen players inexplicably get it wrong?

But it does give great satisfaction to pot a ball at the opposite end of the table, run whitey around four rails, and stop a couple of inches from the final ball, straight in.

 

[richiebalto]

You got me there.:help:

I said cue ball control was overrated just to stir up some interest. It should be obvious that you need some level of cue ball control to excel at this game. I don't really mean that it should be abandoned altogether. I was really just trying to make the point that ball pocketing is supreme! The beginning and the end is ball pocketing. You must be confident that you can pocket the ball then you can learn to control whitey. It shouldn't really be the other way around. That's all I'm saying.

I guess you either get it or you don't. I often find myself in the minority on this site and I may find myself in that position (no pun intended) again.

Basement,i understand what u r gettint at,i will agree,if u take 2 c players,the 1 that pockets balls better at that level ,i believe would b the winner over the c player that moves the qball better,now like this i can understand better what u r saying!oh btw great thread!

 

[Jaden]

I don't know anyone that plays as good on the big table as they do on a bar table...

Okay I'll name one - Jason Kirkwood.

Yes, he can play on the big table. I would guess at the shortstop level. But last I heard he doesn't play as good on the big table as he does on the bar table. And as a matter of fact, he said flat out that he didn't pocket balls good enough on th big table to play with the big guns (this was quite a few years back so he may have a different opinion now).

I don't know anyone that plays as good on the big table as they do on a bar table, at least not at a top level...

I also said that isn't at least an A player, he's short stop level on the big table.

The difference is also probably his ability to pocket balls on the big table rather than a lack of cueball control, which means his being better on the barbox is probably due to excellent cb control...

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

yeah but at that level...

Basement,i understand what u r gettint at,i will agree,if u take 2 c players,the 1 that pockets balls better at that level ,i believe would b the winner over the c player that moves the qball better,now like this i can understand better what u r saying!oh btw great thread!

At that level, they SHOULD be focusing on becoming better shot makers..

Until you get to b or better the main drills and practice you should be doing should be to pocket balls better... Once you can pocket balls, then you move onto CB control with just tangent, then with tangent and follow and draw and THEN with side spin...

Jaden

 

[richiebalto]

At that level, they SHOULD be focusing on becoming better shot makers..

Until you get to b or better the main drills and practice you should be doing should be to pocket balls better... Once you can pocket balls, then you move onto CB control with just tangent, then with tangent and follow and draw and THEN with side spin...

Jaden

I agree Jaden,ill tell ya,since i got older,my pocketing skills declined, but my qball skills r still there,its like now,i mite miss any shot,but iam most the time in line.

 

[Celtic]

Odd thread.

You obviously need to be very profficient at both. Efren, Earl, Archer, Ralf, I don't care which champ you pick none of these guys are lacking in either potting ability or shape play. When they get on shape they keep the cueball on a string and run out without a tough pot. When they get left a tough shot by their opponent they have the skill to shoot the tough shot into the hole more times then not and normally do so with the intent to get the cueball somewhere that makes the next shot easier and makes the out possible.

No pool player ignores shape and gets good results, to do so would mean you lose every time. Same thing with potting, noone ignores the pot and plays shape and gets good results, doing so gets you beat every time.

As often as a player takes a loss because they missed a shot they lose more games at the top level due to losing control of the cueball and hooking themselves, scratching, or falling out of shape to a point where they need to scramble playing thin cuts and banks to attempt to get out.

 

[walrus_3d]

Just a thought I don't think anybody's mentioned yet:

People say if your CB control is good you don't need to learn how to hit hard shots. If your opponent leaves you a hard shot, how the hell are you supposed to get into your run if you can't make the first shot? Of COURSE you have to be able to make hard shots. You're not the only one leaving the CB somewhere on that table.

Anyway, yes I think CB control is overrated. If you don't make the shot, it doesn't matter where the CB is. If I can at least see the next ball after making the shot, I have some kind of play regardless of how low-percentage it is. That's why safeties exist in the first place. I agree with Jaden, though. 90% of your CB control comes from follow, draw, speed, and understanding the natural path of the CB from making the shot. It's that last 10% that makes you a high-level player if you can consistently play the right shot, for the right shape, on a tough table.

 

[BasementDweller]

Let me try it this way -

I think for 9 ball specifically you can gain proficiency at controlling the cue ball simply by playing nine ball and a lot of it. If you play enough you learn how to move the cue ball around enough to get by. However, you really don't get an opportunity to practice potting of difficult shots while you are playing. You will get to shoot one here and there but overall you really don't get to work on this area of your game while playing, especially as you get better. Isn't that the point? As your cue ball gets better you get even less opportunities to shot at difficult shots.

So when you pair this idea with the fact that most U.S. players really don't spend a lot of time truly practicing what you get is someone like me. Someone that doesn't pocket balls as good as I should for how good I control the cue ball. I think there's some sort of ratio and I'm short on the shotmaking side. I bet if we did a comparison of European and U.S. players this point I've been trying to make would play out. Most people I know really don't strive to improve their shotmaking ability after they reach a certain. I've now seen the error of my ways and I'm working on my shotmaking (I know I'm sounding like a broken record here) and I'm getting better.

Now the kids are waiting. Trick or Treat!!!

 

[The Renfro]

This is the mindset that slowed me down. I think when you are looking to improve you have to be singularly focused.

When you're working on improving your shotmaking ability what are you doing really? You are training yourself to hit the cue ball and the object ball very very precisely. This can carry over to your cue ball control. However, contrary to popular opinion you don't have to hit the object ball that precisely when you are working on position. Just ask an honest 3 cushion player. They have quite a bit (relatively speaking) of wiggle room in regards to the cue ball/object ball collision. In other words, you can hit the object within a wide range and still get the cue ball to the intended destination. It is a much more precise hit needed to pocket a difficult shot. So, since most of us don't have infinite amount of time to practice I try to spend my time as efficiently as possible and I think working on pocketing balls is more important.

Real simple.... Diamond 9ft professional tournament tables.... Your shot making won't save you.. Only cueball control will....

If you think for 1 second those guys don't shoot as straight as you you are out of your skull... They just won't pull the trigger and turn over the table shooting at a ball...

Potting skills are overrated and most players who play pure offense are never going to reach A level and none of them are going to make it to AA level.....

Shooting shots you are gonna miss more than 10% of the time is a sure road to the left side of a bracket playing real players.... Even shooting 90+ %ers will send you there as well if you are constantly shooting them instead of the 100% safes.......

 

[mantis99]

Think so? I don't. What do you think seperates a great bar box player from a great 9' table player? Do you think it is cue ball control? I don't. They don't pocket balls good enough on the big table to compete with them.

I would still disagree with you. The difference between an A player and a C player is many things, however, I would suggest that the A players ability to control the cue ball over the C players is a bigger gap than their ability to pocket balls over the C player, and by a lot. I'm not saying pocketing balls isn't important, in fact its essential, however I am saying that the difference to getting to the next level usually involves CB control more than ball pocketing once you are a C player. Certainly, at a B level and above, where all players have solid CB control, if one can pocket balls better than the other, they may win, but they never would have gotten to the C level without controlling whitey in the first place.

i just saw a video lesson linked in another thread where a study was done where pro players were told what pattern and shot to play by a lower level player. The pro players with all their ball pocketing abilities had difficulty getting out when they had to play the patterns and shots chosen by an amateur. That shuold speak for itself regarding the importance of CB control and pattern play.

Also, initial ball pocketing ability is one thing, but ball pocketing when using spin is another, that may be a mesh of the two, but falls more into the ball control arena than just ball pocketing.

 

[ceebee]

While you are in the basement, maybe you could make a video of you playing some 8-Ball & 9-Ball to show us what you're talking about. That will make it easy for us to see the pros & cons.

 

[jay helfert]

Okay I'll name one - Jason Kirkwood.

Yes, he can play on the big table. I would guess at the shortstop level. But last I heard he doesn't play as good on the big table as he does on the bar table. And as a matter of fact, he said flat out that he didn't pocket balls good enough on th big table to play with the big guns (this was quite a few years back so he may have a different opinion now).

Jason Kirkwood is no shortstop on any table. He'd just like you to think he is. :smile:

One thing is certain, you MUST make the ball first, to continue your turn. That said, if you have to keep making hard shots (because you are out of line), you will eventually miss, usually sooner rather than later. There are no top players who don't play good position and have excellent cue ball control. In fact what separates the good from the elite (besides HEART!) is cue ball control. The best money player I ever saw was Jose Parica, with Buddy Hall second. They kept that cue ball on a string.

Efren may be the greatest One Pocket player of all time (along with Ronnie Allen) and his two best attributes are his creativity and his ability to put the cue ball through very small openings and into extremely tight spaces. He could run the balls when they were all clustered together, better than anyone ever, even Ronnie. Ronnie would break them up, while Efren doesn't have to.

What makes Dennis Orcullo perhaps the best player in the game today? Just watch how he handles the cue ball and then you tell me. Same goes for Ralf Souquet!

To be able to run over 100 balls at Straight Pool, you MUST have excellent cue ball control, rack after rack. And the list goes on and on.

 

[Snapshot9]

Here we go!

3 time World Champion Jimmy Caras to me in 1962 (I was 14),

"Controlling the cue ball is 70% of the game". I took it to heart, and it is one reason why I progressed as rapidly as I did. I worked intensely on cue ball control after that.

You can learn to make the shots, that's what practice is for, all you have to do is aim the object ball into the pocket you want it to go, keep your eye on the contact point, and hit the contact point with the cue ball. You shoot enough shots, and you learn to do it, BUT being able to make those tough shots and still get shape on the next ball is not so easy sometimes. The game of Pool is about consistency, and with good cue ball control you will be much more consistent in the long run. Buddy Hall has great cue ball control, and he was in the top 5 players for 21 years.

Even today, almost 50 years later, my cue ball control is something I am known for in my game.

 

[cutnedge]

However, you really don't get an opportunity to practice potting of difficult shots while you are playing. You will get to shot one here and there but overall you really don't get to work on this area of your game while playing, especially as you get better. Isn't that the point? As your cue ball gets better you get even less opportunities to shot at difficult shots.

Instead of playing one foul/ball in hand, play some roll-out. I guarantee you will get your opportunity to shoot difficult shots if you choose to.

 

[The Chinchilla]

3 time World Champion Jimmy Caras to me in 1962 (I was 14),

"Controlling the cue ball is 70% of the game". I took it to heart, and it is one reason why I progressed as rapidly as I did. I worked intensely on cue ball control after that.

Well, ive perhaps said this too many ways already, but lets say cb is 70% of the game. Ok, what the op is saying has to do with the "law of diminishing returns." A player can practice shotmaking and now that 30% leftover jumps up because he hasn't nearly plateaued in the area of shotmaking. His practice is now returning more.

He is also correctly pointing out that many players get kinda brainwashed into thinking cb is "pure" pool, and only work on practicing cb control, naively thinking they can play great simply with cb. Hes not saying cb control isnt important, just that people put a lot of time in practicing it without seeing any returns.

I think his point is a very strong one because there are no doubt players out there who can control the cb VERY WELL. There is a player at hard times for instance, named larry "moto," he moves the cb so well, he plays good one hole, but he cant beat anybody playing 9 ball. You have to ask yourself why that is... pro level cb movement (or just under) yet he cant beat an advanced banger in 9ball. Point of thread is pocketing balls is highly underrated, i totally agree.

Anyway, interesting thread.

 

[Jaden]

Here's the downlow as far as I see it...

Well, ive perhaps said this too many ways already, but lets say cb is 70% of the game. Ok, what the op is saying has to do with the "law of diminishing returns." A player can practice shotmaking and now that 30% leftover jumps up because he hasn't nearly plateaued in the area of shotmaking. His practice is now returning more.

He is also correctly pointing out that many players get kinda brainwashed into thinking cb is "pure" pool, and only work on practicing cb control, naively thinking they can play great simply with cb. Hes not saying cb control isnt important, just that people put a lot of time in practicing it without seeing any returns.

I think his point is a very strong one because there are no doubt players out there who can control the cb VERY WELL. There is a player at hard times for instance, named larry "moto," he moves the cb so well, he plays good one hole, but he cant beat anybody playing 9 ball. You have to ask yourself why that is... pro level cb movement (or just under) yet he cant beat an advanced banger in 9ball. Point of thread is pocketing balls is highly underrated, i totally agree.

Anyway, interesting thread.

There is a law of diminishing returns as you get farther and what happens is that as you get better when you start to work on other aspects of the game, i.e. CB control, you sacrifice the level you have achieved in other areas, i.e. ball pocketing ability...

This is because as you progress and learn more and try to do more, there are adjustments to learn.

If you first start out and start by using ghost ball to aim, you can get really good at pocketing balls.

You practice and practice and you get really good at pocketing balls, but you have no clue where the cb is gonna go.

Then you learn how to draw and follow, now your cooking with gas...

and ghost ball still works for the most part with pocketing balls.

you get an idea for where the CB is going to go and then someone teaches you or you read about a concept called tangent line...

Hey now you can play with speed to get to the right side of the ball for the next shot...

Then you learn about how the speed affects follow and draw in conjunction with the tangent line...

Great, now you can figure out how to get to most places on the table.

However, there are still times when balls are in the way and you don't know what to do to get on the next ball, you can still pocket balls and you have some ideas in general how to get to most balls...

Hell, if you practice enough with just these concepts, you can get to a pretty high level of play, especially with rotation games like nineball.

Then you see something, a short stop comes to town or you see a pro in a spot where there are balls in the way and you can't see how he could possibly get on the ball the right way, and then you see it.

He does something crazy, he puts a lot of sidespin on the ball and it follows off the object ball and comes back the opposite way of the angle it should have gone and completely avoids the blocking balls giving him perfect shape...

So you try it, but now you can't pocket a single ball... You try and try and although you learn to adjust a little bit, you're never consistent.

Hell, you get the CB to do what you want, but your pocketing skills have gone WAYYYYY down.

When you get to this point, it is only natural to say fug it, I don't care about those times when I need to do something crazy to get where I need to, I play much better when I don't worry so much about shape and just concentrate on making the balls and getting to the general area of the next ball.

That's fine for some people...

You'll always limit your potential if you do that though.

You absolutely cannot get to a high level in pool if you don't learn all you can about the game.

There are ways to improve the consistency and ease of adjustment for those spin shots.

BHE is one... a really good one, it works in most situations...so long as you trust it and stroke straight.

LD tech is another... LD shafts along with a little knowledge as to what conditions require some manual adjustment and you can be killer.

LD shafts allow you to only have to adjust a little bit for squirt...

The other and it is a prerequisite no matter what method you choose, is PRACTICE....

Practice a lot. Whatever methods you decide to use, even if it is just pure feel , practice is going to be necessary, a lot of it.

But you have to practice all aspects of the game and you have to get the knowledge...

If you don't understand transferred side spin for banking, collision induced throw, squirt, swerve, and how important trusting your stroke and a true straight stroke is, you are limiting your potential.

Jaden

 

[Masayoshi]

Cue ball control is a subset of good shot making, except in the case of safeties. You can have good shot making without good cue ball control, but you can't have good cue ball control without good shot making because cue ball control is reliant on the angle you hit the object ball.

I always chuckle at people who say after a missed shot "well at least I got the cue ball there!" You got the cue ball there because you missed the shot. If you had made the shot, your cue ball would have been somewhere else.

What separates good players from okay players is that good players have shot making and cue ball control. While okay players probably only have shot making, but poor cue ball control, or so-so shot making and so-so cue ball control.

 

[JB Cases]

Alright I’m looking to stir up some controversy. So here it goes – CUE BALL CONTROL IS OVERRATED!

I actually believe this too and here’s why:

When I first started playing pool after just a few months I picked up the basics. I was pocketing balls okay and I quickly began learning all about the wonders of the cue ball. Like most players, I was really drawn to the game via the cue ball. I loved watching it fly around the table. I can still remember when I first learned how to draw the cue ball back up table off of the long rail. You remember that? When you realized that if you wanted the cue ball to spin back up table you had to hit the cue ball with draw on the opposite side than you first thought??? So, there I was starting down this journey of trying to master the cue ball.

It is at this point in time that I think I got some bad advice. I wasn’t really encouraged to work diligently on pocketing the object balls. Instead most people would say something along the lines of “learn to control the cue ball and you don’t have to worry about the difficult shots”. Or “master the simple shots and your ability to pocket the more difficult ones will improve.” These same guys would laugh at the players that could really pocket balls well and shake their heads at their cue ball control (which I’ve been guilty of myself). The focus was ALWAYS on a player’s ability to control the cue ball.

So I continued on. Of course I worked on specific shots here and there but in the back of my mind my practice time was usually centered around cue ball control. Then about 2 years ago or so I really assessed where my game was at. When I considered how my ball pocketing abilities compared to my cue ball control I realized that for my level of play I control the cue ball way better than I pocket balls. I think this happens to a lot of players. As our level of cue ball control increases the time spent working on more difficult shots naturally decreases.

So, to cut to the chase – for the past few years I have been working mainly on potting balls and I have seen a dramatic improvement in my ability. An adding benefit has been my cue ball control has seemed to improve as well. I attribute this to two things. First, being a more confident player. Secondly, my fundamentals have improved as a result of really pushing the limit on my ball potting ability.

For me, confidence at the table comes from knowing that I can make the shot. When I’m playing and missing position I can talk myself through that without my game falling apart BUT when I’m missing shots bad things can happen. You have to be able to step up to the table and pocket the ball. Otherwise, all the cue ball control in the world is not going to help you.

Well – that’s all I have to say about that. What you think?

Well the way I used to practice was to take a shot and shoot it every which way I could until I could make the ball and put the cue ball where I wanted to. Someone told me to use a piece of paper and move that around to be my target. Later on Kim Davenport actually invented a game on this concept called target pool.

Jimmy Reid taught me to shoot racks with no english, then the rack with all right spin, then all left spin and so on just to get familiar with how to hit the ball with different sides.

I once bet my friend that I could beat him in a race to five using nothing but top and bottom and speed control. He didn't think it could be done but I beat him easily.

You have to be able to do both. I have known a lot of people who miss too much because they try to do too much with the ball.

I remember watching Buddy Hall play Dennis Hatch down in Florida and Buddy had a shot where he could make the cue ball go two rails side to side and down table for real good shape. He goes to the table and sights the next shot from jsut a few inches away from the object ball he was on which would mean a long shot on the next ball. Buddy cinches the shot and leaves himself long on the next ball and runs out.

That's the day I learned that making sure you make the ball is the most important part. Instead of taking a chance on mishitting the object ball with the spin he needed to get close up "perfect" shape, Buddy deicded that it would be better to hit the ball with a solid stop shot and let the cue ball drift over slightly and take the longer shot on the next ball.

So cue ball control is not overrated but it's often misunderstood. If you don't make the shot you are shooting at you didn't control the cue ball properly.