Cue buying. How has it changed for you?

lenoxmjs

lenoxmjs

Brazilian Rosewood Fan
Silver Member
I usually spend what little free time I have on here and other pool forums. I've been around about 7 years and in that time I've learned a lot. The cue market has changed dramatically in that time and so has the board. My tastes have also changed/evolved. Please add your story /feeling /observations below.

1. Many of the great cuemakers that I thought I would order a cue from someday have passed, stopped taking orders, or are in their twilight and are out of reach. These would include Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Mike Cochran, Paul Mottey, and Ernie G.

2. Flaws that I didn't notice or was willing to accept 7 years ago would never pass muster now.

3. I very rarely buy used cues anymore. I prefer to get what I want direct even if it means waiting years.

4. My favorite cues now have killer wood and no inlays or very few. The exception to this is I'm blown away by killer ringwork.

5. Theme cues, air brushing, decals, or any sort of personalization in a cue is a no go for me.

6. Building a great playing cue is no longer enough to elevate you into the cuemaking elite. It seems most new makers struggle the most with is comming up with a great shaft taper.

7. There are many very underated cuemakers that give you incredible quality and attention to detail. Their cues are still very affordable directly from the source and even more affordable on the secondary market. Rick Howard and Jeff Olney come to mind.

8. There are many new builders who overpromise and under deliver.

9. Customer service for 7 out of ten cue makers or related cue services leaves a LOT to be desired.

10. AZ has become a place of scammers, liars and cheats. Not all but definately more so than when I joined. I can also say it is a place where I have learned an incredible amount about cue, cuemaking, and theres always NPR if all else fails. I have also made so many friends that I look forward to seeing every year at the SBE. As long as the good guys outnumber the bad we'll be ok!

11. My advice to anyone starting out in this . Read a lot, order a little. Cover your butt. Be very careful putting down deposits.

12. I now try not to buy any cue that I think I'll loose money on. This is very different then when I first started . I used to just buy what I liked . Now it's not enough that I just like the cue it's also gotta be priced where I think I can get out of it pretty much unscathed or I probably won't buy it.
 
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Well I have bought cues for 40 years and traded/sold all but 3 up until now.

Now that I'm retired and the US economy is shot, I can only afford tips and chalk! Ha!

--Jeff
 
Masirib5 said:
Well I have bought cues for 40 years and traded/sold all but 3 up until now.

Now that I'm retired and the US economy is shot, I can only afford tips and chalk! Ha!

--Jeff
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Jeff sell me your TAD hahaha, not too expensive ok
 
1. Everybody's your friend, when you have money to spend. :eek: :grin:

2. Nick is a moron...but dammit, I love that dude. He makes me giggle.

3. A $4500 cue plays no better than a $300 cue.

4. There are a few folks here on AZB that have a heart of gold, and whose word will ALWAYS be good enough for me.

5. It's sad that there are FAR too few of #4.

6. I've spent way too much money on cues.

7. Lots of folks let their moral compass be powered by economic trends.

8. I'll miss this place...kinda.
 
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lenoxmjs said:
I usually spend what little free time I have on here and other pool forums. I've been around about 7 years and in that time I've learned a lot. The cue market has changed dramatically in that time and so has the board. My tastes have also changed/evolved. Please add your story /feeling /observations below.

1. Many of the great cuemakers that I thought I would order a cue from someday have passed, stopped taking orders, or are in their twilight and are out of reach. These would include Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Mike Cochran, Paul Mottey, and Ernie G.

2. Flaws that I didn't notice or was willing to accept 7 years ago would never pass muster now.

3. I very rarely buy used cues anymore. I prefer to get what I want direct even if it means waiting years.

4. My favorite cues now have killer wood and no inlays or very few. The exception to this is I'm blown away by killer ringwork.

5. Theme cues, air brushing, decals, or any sort of personalization in a cue is a no go for me.

6. Building a great playing cue is no longer enough to elevate you into the cuemaking elite. It seems most new makers struggle the most with is comming up with a great shaft taper.

7. There are many very underated cuemakers that give you incredible quality and attention to detail. Their cues are still very affordable directly from the source and even more affordable on the secondary market. Rick Howard and Jeff Olney come to mind.

8. There are many new builders who overpromise and under deliver.

9. Customer service for 7 out of ten cue makers or related cue services leaves a LOT to be desired.

10. AZ has become a place of scammers, liars and cheats. Not all but definately more so than when I joined. I can also say it is a place where I have learned an incredible amount about cue, cuemaking, and theres always NPR if all else fails. I have also made so many friends that I look forward to seeing every year at the SBE. As long as the good guys outnumber the bad we'll be ok!

11. My advice to anyone starting out in this . Read a lot, order a little. Cover your butt. Be very careful putting down deposits.

12. I now try not to buy any cue that I think I'll loose money on. This is very different then when I first started . I used to just buy what I liked . Now it's not enough that I just like the cue it's also gotta be priced where I think I can get out of it pretty much unscathed or I probably won't buy it.
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This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum. You pretty much covered it all. One thing I have done in the last 3 or 4 years is never buy a cue at all unless it's below resale value, I know you touched on this but after having sooooo many cues i am super careful. With the market in the toilet (with few exceptions) choosing cues known for either playabilty or resale are my only two options.

Another thing I found out is there is no holy grail. I am done chasing after it. I have had so many cues that I wish I didn't sell but then i find another one and the cycle starts all over.

I have started playing with less expensive cues because what i like isn't necessarily what resales best. You can take any well built cue that has a close balance point to what you prefer and change the shaft to a size and taper you like. Slap a good tip on it with the shape you like and bam. Plays as good or better than many high dollar customs. It's funny because the cue i play with right now "plays" as good as any cue i have ever owned except just a couple and it's probably not worth $300 to anyone but me.

The other thing I finally figured out after so many years is, the joint material and configuration is irrelevant. Can it effect balance? Yes. Does it truly effect the "hit" ? Not really. Any good secure joint plays good.


Anyway nice post. It should be a sticky
 
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Great Post!

lenoxmjs said:
I usually spend what little free time I have on here and other pool forums. I've been around about 7 years and in that time I've learned a lot. The cue market has changed dramatically in that time and so has the board. My tastes have also changed/evolved. Please add your story /feeling /observations below.

1. Many of the great cuemakers that I thought I would order a cue from someday have passed, stopped taking orders, or are in their twilight and are out of reach. These would include Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Mike Cochran, Paul Mottey, and Ernie G.

2. Flaws that I didn't notice or was willing to accept 7 years ago would never pass muster now.

3. I very rarely buy used cues anymore. I prefer to get what I want direct even if it means waiting years.

4. My favorite cues now have killer wood and no inlays or very few. The exception to this is I'm blown away by killer ringwork.

5. Theme cues, air brushing, decals, or any sort of personalization in a cue is a no go for me.

6. Building a great playing cue is no longer enough to elevate you into the cuemaking elite. It seems most new makers struggle the most with is comming up with a great shaft taper.

7. There are many very underated cuemakers that give you incredible quality and attention to detail. Their cues are still very affordable directly from the source and even more affordable on the secondary market. Rick Howard and Jeff Olney come to mind.

8. There are many new builders who overpromise and under deliver.

9. Customer service for 7 out of ten cue makers or related cue services leaves a LOT to be desired.

10. AZ has become a place of scammers, liars and cheats. Not all but definately more so than when I joined. I can also say it is a place where I have learned an incredible amount about cue, cuemaking, and theres always NPR if all else fails. I have also made so many friends that I look forward to seeing every year at the SBE. As long as the good guys outnumber the bad we'll be ok!

11. My advice to anyone starting out in this . Read a lot, order a little. Cover your butt. Be very careful putting down deposits.

12. I now try not to buy any cue that I think I'll loose money on. This is very different then when I first started . I used to just buy what I liked . Now it's not enough that I just like the cue it's also gotta be priced where I think I can get out of it pretty much unscathed or I probably won't buy it.
Click to expand...

Mirrors a lot of how I view cues as well . . . I especially agree and follow #2 & #4 . . . there's nothing more beautiful then killer AAA woods brought together . . . I gotta admit - sometimes I just stare at my Coco/Maple sneaky - almost don't want to pick it up 'cause I somehow feel like I don't deserve something that cool . . . I guess I appreciate the cue artisan's much, much more then I ever did 10 or 20 years ago. Thank God I play pool!
 
lenoxmjs said:
I usually spend what little free time I have on here and other pool forums. I've been around about 7 years and in that time I've learned a lot. The cue market has changed dramatically in that time and so has the board. My tastes have also changed/evolved. Please add your story /feeling /observations below.

1. Many of the great cuemakers that I thought I would order a cue from someday have passed, stopped taking orders, or are in their twilight and are out of reach. These would include Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Mike Cochran, Paul Mottey, and Ernie G.

2. Flaws that I didn't notice or was willing to accept 7 years ago would never pass muster now.

3. I very rarely buy used cues anymore. I prefer to get what I want direct even if it means waiting years.

4. My favorite cues now have killer wood and no inlays or very few. The exception to this is I'm blown away by killer ringwork.

5. Theme cues, air brushing, decals, or any sort of personalization in a cue is a no go for me.

6. Building a great playing cue is no longer enough to elevate you into the cuemaking elite. It seems most new makers struggle the most with is comming up with a great shaft taper.

7. There are many very underated cuemakers that give you incredible quality and attention to detail. Their cues are still very affordable directly from the source and even more affordable on the secondary market. Rick Howard and Jeff Olney come to mind.

8. There are many new builders who overpromise and under deliver.

9. Customer service for 7 out of ten cue makers or related cue services leaves a LOT to be desired.

10. AZ has become a place of scammers, liars and cheats. Not all but definately more so than when I joined. I can also say it is a place where I have learned an incredible amount about cue, cuemaking, and theres always NPR if all else fails. I have also made so many friends that I look forward to seeing every year at the SBE. As long as the good guys outnumber the bad we'll be ok!

11. My advice to anyone starting out in this . Read a lot, order a little. Cover your butt. Be very careful putting down deposits.

12. I now try not to buy any cue that I think I'll loose money on. This is very different then when I first started . I used to just buy what I liked . Now it's not enough that I just like the cue it's also gotta be priced where I think I can get out of it pretty much unscathed or I probably won't buy it.
Click to expand...


Personally, I hope I never get to the point of being so jaded.

I am still at the point of merely dreaming of having one of the great makers build a cue for me.

I still cherish my first cue.

I still cherish some cues with "flaws".

A lot of my cues would be a bit of a joke around here, and I don't really care. I enjoy owning them and occasionally playing with them. I do get a bit tired of the attitude than some have about the superiority of their tastes and/or their cues over the rest. The fact is that the vast majority will never own much less collect high end cues.

I was a "lurker" here for a long time before I signed up, so I have very few deals here. I have seen that there are scam artists with very high iTraders and experienced one of them. The cue dealers seem like used car salesmen to me. I doubt I would ever go through one to get a new cue. If a cue maker would not deal directly with me, I doubt I would want to deal with him anyway. I only ever knew one cue dealer until a few years ago. That was John Wright, who has long since passed. It seems he was a different breed from a different era. At least that's how it seems to me.

I do still dream of a cue from several makers that have retired or are gone. It is a little frustrating to know I will never get one made by one of them.



.
 
Well, I now buy them one piece at a time. I highly recommend everyone try it.

Larry
 
I think I've ordered my last custom cue. If there is a holy grail of cues, I've had it and sold it, unless it's on the way now. I know what I like now, and it is not inlay or ivory anything. There are a few good people on this site whose word is as good as gold, others not so much, be careful. Anybody can be a cuemaker with a couple videos and a lathe and some fancy wood, but there are genuine master cue artists that have short waiting lists. Old growth shaftwood and a comfortable taper will make any cue play good.
:grin:
 
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lenoxmjs said:
10. AZ has become a place of scammers, liars and cheats. Not all but definately more so than when I joined. I can also say it is a place where I have learned an incredible amount about cue, cuemaking, and theres always NPR if all else fails. I have also made so many friends that I look forward to seeing every year at the SBE. As long as the good guys outnumber the bad we'll be ok!
Click to expand...

What I have learned is that yesterdays' AZB nut huggers hyped up
cuemaker darling of the month quickly becomes todays can't sell it for
anything piece of firewood.

When I went bankrupt in 2009 I was fortunate enough to liquidate a
small 6 figure cue collection and break even as most here will remember
how the market completely crashed.

Now, older, wiser, and broke I only obtain
and then keep a cue that meets the following criteria:

1. It hits exceptionally smooth for me
2. It has an understated look that holds up to the test of time.
3. It is purchased at a price it can at least be sold for again - quickly


Anyone buying cues for investment purposes that are not cues which
were made by what I call the dead legends are not investing, they
are gambling.

I only have 4 cues today which is less than 10% of what I had pre 2009.

These are the cues that met my criteria above:

1. Mike Lambros old school hoppe style made to my specs and design
2. Richard Harris maple plain jane obtained here on AZB in 98+% condition
3. Judd Fuller sneaky pete with 2 shafts (everyone needs a sneaky IMO)

4. Bobby Hunter old school from a John Davis blank.
http://recollectioncues.com/hunter4ptfullsplice.html

Now out of the 4, the Bobby Hunter is the closest I have that is
a gamble as I have hit with Bobbys' cues and they are all
consistently smooth to me, so it meets criteria 1.

Without question, it meets criteria 2.

As for criteria 3 and the gamble:

what I'm looking at are the following:

A. Bobby just won The Collectors Choice award at the
recent cue show in Las Vegas.
B. This cue is not what one would normally call a "Bobby Hunter" cue
until they see that little scalloped H on the butt cap.

So, my gamble on cue 4 is an educated gamble, not a gamble based
on all the AZB nut hugger bull$hit over on the Wanted/For Sale forum.

Danny
 
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lenoxmjs said:
I usually spend what little free time I have on here and other pool forums. I've been around about 7 years and in that time I've learned a lot. The cue market has changed dramatically in that time and so has the board. My tastes have also changed/evolved. Please add your story /feeling /observations below.

1. Many of the great cuemakers that I thought I would order a cue from someday have passed, stopped taking orders, or are in their twilight and are out of reach. These would include Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Mike Cochran, Paul Mottey, and Ernie G.

2. Flaws that I didn't notice or was willing to accept 7 years ago would never pass muster now.

3. I very rarely buy used cues anymore. I prefer to get what I want direct even if it means waiting years.

This i disagree with, most cue makers have tester shafts and I never buy anything anymore sight unseen or with out test hitting!!! New or Used!!!

4. My favorite cues now have killer wood and no inlays or very few. The exception to this is I'm blown away by killer ringwork.

5. Theme cues, air brushing, decals, or any sort of personalization in a cue is a no go for me.

6. Building a great playing cue is no longer enough to elevate you into the cuemaking elite. It seems most new makers struggle the most with is comming up with a great shaft taper.

This is very true, Most cue makers leave the shaft FAT for the customers benefit! Shaft taper is such a personal thing that the cue maker is BETTER off playing it safe by leaving the taper fat!!! The down side of this decision is the buyer upon purchase needs to RETAPPER the shaft immediately!!!

7. There are many very underated cuemakers that give you incredible quality and attention to detail. Their cues are still very affordable directly from the source and even more affordable on the secondary market. Rick Howard and Jeff Olney come to mind.

I must agree and add Ted Harris!!! His stuff is great as well as Lomax

8. There are many new builders who overpromise and under deliver.

9. Customer service for 7 out of ten cue makers or related cue services leaves a LOT to be desired.

10. AZ has become a place of scammers, liars and cheats. Not all but definately more so than when I joined. I can also say it is a place where I have learned an incredible amount about cue, cuemaking, and theres always NPR if all else fails. I have also made so many friends that I look forward to seeing every year at the SBE. As long as the good guys outnumber the bad we'll be ok!

11. My advice to anyone starting out in this . Read a lot, order a little. Cover your butt. Be very careful putting down deposits.

12. I now try not to buy any cue that I think I'll loose money on. This is very different then when I first started . I used to just buy what I liked . Now it's not enough that I just like the cue it's also gotta be priced where I think I can get out of it pretty much unscathed or I probably won't buy it.
Click to expand...

Along with the above comments, I must add that among the cues produced by the same cue maker!!! They are not all the same!!! Some use better woods, some use better construction techniques, some weight too much, some weight too little, some are balanced properly and some are balanced in a manner not to your liking. Out of all of this I would highly recommend buying from a cue makers finished stock and NEVER have a cue commissioned!!!

Here is why!!!

Many cue makers enjoy building what they LIKE and it is TRUELY a labor making another persons vision! They are not mind readers and making HUNDREDS of decisions along the way and GUESSING at what the owner would want gets OLD!!!

There is a very BIG chance the cue will not come in the weight, balance point, or Taper you were looking for.

Plus, when you commission a cue you never get to test hit or check the balance prior to your purchase. The cue maker will do his best but once its built changes are not possible and YOU asked it to be built when the cue maker had a different idea!!!

KD
 
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asiasdad said:
Anyone buying cues for investment purposes that are not cues which
were made by what I call the dead legends are not investing, they
are gambling.
Click to expand...


IMHO all investments are gambles by definition. Investing in pool cues, even "wisely", is in general frivolous investing in my book. One should view collecting or buying cues as a hobby, even if one is serious about the investment side of it. People buying and selling for profit, in other words dealers, are a different matter I think.


.
 
I'm a player, not a collector.

After shooting a couple of hours with my then new 2007 Josey, I knew my playing cue shopping days had ended.

Apologies to the other great cue makers out there, but I just don't feel the need to explore any more cues.

Sure do like looking at the posted pics of the beauties for sale, tho. :)
 
Great topic.

I don't buy cues anymore as my attention has turned to other things but I spent a lot of time and money on them and came to many of the same conclusions. Some things that come to mind:

~ Cuemakers that I have been able to meet in person and get to know are as a group some of the best people in the pool world. I'm talking about established pro's here not the flavor of the month.

~ There is way too much noise in the cue world now. Just too many people who don't know what they are talking about spouting off to people who know even less and their bad info is being accepted as truth.

~ There are a few great cue dealers out there who understand that you don't have to hit a homerun on every cue and taking care of your customers is the smart thing to do. They are in the minority in my experience.

~ Theme cues do nothing for me. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and once in a great while an innovative design but in general I think they are just a lazy way to design a cue.

~ Scrimshaw and painted ivory cues do not interest me. Give me a plain four point Szamboti that was on the road for thirty years.

~ If I never see another tuxedo cue I will leave this earth a happier man.

~ Biggest pet peeve is someone telling me I just dont understand cues because the new $3000 cue they bought from some regional maker no one outside a two state radius has heard of will be worth $5000 in a couple years. Three times in my life I have come across cues over $2000 that actually did that. They were Showman, Haley and Tonkin at various times over the last fifteen years. Want to guess how many I have seen that ended up being tomato stakes?

~ There are MAYBE five or six guys you can actually get a cue from that will hold their value over the $2000 price point. Thats being generous.

Final point is do your research. Find the good guys. Get to know them.

Final final point: Cuemakers that I have been fortunate enough to call friends are some of the most creative, interesting and all around good people I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
 
JCIN said:
Great topic.

I don't buy cues anymore as my attention has turned to other things but I spent a lot of time and money on them and came to many of the same conclusions. Some things that come to mind:

~ Cuemakers that I have been able to meet in person and get to know are as a group some of the best people in the pool world. I'm talking about established pro's here not the flavor of the month.

~ There is way too much noise in the cue world now. Just too many people who don't know what they are talking about spouting off to people who know even less and their bad info is being accepted as truth.

~ There are a few great cue dealers out there who understand that you don't have to hit a homerun on every cue and taking care of your customers is the smart thing to do. They are in the minority in my experience.

~ Theme cues do nothing for me. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and once in a great while an innovative design but in general I think they are just a lazy way to design a cue.

~ Scrimshaw and painted ivory cues do not interest me. Give me a plain four point Szamboti that was on the road for thirty years.

~ If I never see another tuxedo cue I will leave this earth a happier man.

~ Biggest pet peeve is someone telling me I just dont understand cues because the new $3000 cue they bought from some regional maker no one outside a two state radius has heard of will be worth $5000 in a couple years. Three times in my life I have come across cues over $2000 that actually did that. They were Showman, Haley and Tonkin at various times over the last fifteen years. Want to guess how many I have seen that ended up being tomato stakes?

~ There are MAYBE five or six guys you can actually get a cue from that will hold their value over the $2000 price point. Thats being generous.

Final point is do your research. Find the good guys. Get to know them.

Final final point: Cuemakers that I have been fortunate enough to call friends are some of the most creative, interesting and all around good people I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
Click to expand...

Great post . I couldn't agree more with you especially on the the last statement. Sad to see your not buying cues . Must be spending to much on guns LOL.
 
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I guess I'm the opposite of a lot of people here in that I've stopped worrying about resale value and don't view my cue purchasing as an investment. Of course, I hope that the values of my cues go up but I now buy for me and don't intend to sell anything. As far as playability, I typically want the cue to play the way the cue maker thinks it should play so I give them a weight range, general balance preference and leave the rest up to them.
 
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