Cue Buying Market Crashed! Fact or Fiction?

[pathman]

I see cues moving along as usual for the most part, at least the ones I keep track of. Seems to me the bigger name makers, the super-stars, keep plenty busy.

For the others, maybe the prices in general need to come down some. There are just too many talented cue-makers. I repeat. TOO MANY CUE-MAKERS! The custom market is saturated.

Chris

Well what do you know, I totally agree with TATE on this one. I have tried several of the newer cue-builders in the past three or so years and I have to say things are sure different now. Back in the late 80's early 90's custom cue customers didn't really have that many good choices. The lines between quality custom cues were pretty easy to differentiate. I think some of the new-comers are doing extremely high quality work, but haven't yet earned the right to try and charge what they are charging. I am a very pro-cuemaker guy, so please don't misunderstand, I just think the proof has to be in the playability and longevity of the cue. With the advent of affordable CNC and readily available materials, lots of people are turning out some really beautifull works of art, but I think the build quality and playabiltiy are a little suspect on some of these. I also think a lot of the cue-buying public is getting wise to the hype that surrounds some of the "hot cue builders". Quality and playability will always rise to the top. I for one think all the choices we have now makes the hobby more intersting, but you really have to know you stuff or it's easy to get stuck.

 

[badabing]

In the past three summers, I picked up great bargains on nice cues due to the slow selling time. But, to me this year seems especially down on everything except mint Barry/Pete/Dennis/Joel cues. (Pardon me if I left out other top shelf makers whose cues are moving). In 2004 and 2005, the market seemed to pick up in the fall. It will be interesting to see if it does again this year.

It is a good time to be a buyer . . . .

Even less than mint cues from the above cuemakers move in a few hours at top prices.........supply and demand!

 

[ScottR]

Even less than mint cues from the above cuemakers move in a few hours at top prices.........supply and demand!

We are in agreement. I was thinking of some Tascarellas that took longer to move than I expected within the past couple of months.

 

[HIRUN526]

They are so many cuemakers that are pretty much the same...like if you buy a Toyota or a Nissan, Honda etc. it'a all pretty much the same type of car with a different emblem, dime a dozen. When I was at Valley Forge this year and went from booth to booth it was pretty much the same thing. There were only a couple of cuemakers that stood out.

The best living cuemakers cues not only hold their value but also appreciate in value. There are perhaps maybe 8 living cuemakers that fit in this catagory.

There are some cuemakers that do nice work but pump out a lot of cues and that affects value. There are some big name cuemakers that get big money for their cues and when put on the secondary market a year later bring much less than the original price and that's ok if your goal is not buying the cue as an investment.

I have a very short list of living cuemakers that I buy from or would buy from. I collect certain cues for master workmanship,playability and certain asthetic qualities and if you select right there isn't any concern about marketability and resale.

From where I sit the market is very good.

 

[nick serdula]

Sweet avitar 526!

That cue doggles my mind. Is it a Manzino?
Later
Nick

 

[pharaoh68]

The best living cuemakers cues not only hold their value but also appreciate in value. There are perhaps maybe 8 living cuemakers that fit in this catagory.

There are some cuemakers that do nice work but pump out a lot of cues and that affects value. There are some big name cuemakers that get big money for their cues and when put on the secondary market a year later bring much less than the original price and that's ok if your goal is not buying the cue as an investment.

I have a very short list of living cuemakers that I buy from or would buy from. I collect certain cues for master workmanship,playability and certain asthetic qualities and if you select right there isn't any concern about marketability and resale.

From where I sit the market is very good.

Ok. My reason for quoting this is simple:
You've posted some of your pics before and, well, to say that I respect your taste and your collection would be an understatement. My question is twofold:

1) Who are you 8 Living cuemakers that fit into the category of hold/appreciate in value?

2) Who are the cuemakers that do nice work but pump out a lot of cues?

(please keep in mind this is not a challenge. I am just curious as to your opinion. I have my own set of answers to these questions and I wonder how your answers and mine would differ.)

 

[HIRUN526]

Hello Nick, Yes, that's my Manzino Floating Ivory Box Cue. The detail and design is amazing.

 

[cornerstone]

sales at a all time high "for me at least"

Iam very picky when i buy cues! #1 cue maker-#2 design-#3 condition#4 originality ! this month (summer) alone i have moved soo many cues that the trouble iam having is finding replacement! the art aspect of cues is going to take it too a new level. and if you treat your customers with respect and meet thier needs it will happen! I try to deal directly with the cuemaker and try to give them the respect and honor that they deserve for putting there heart and sole into these masterpieces! and when i buy from owners I give them real money that the cue is worth not beat them up!all this together spells incredible sales and referral! i will be putting up aprox 20 more cues in the next 2 weeks so keep a eye out! thank you and may God bless you all ( he has Me and my family! Bill

 

[cornerstone]

They are so many cuemakers that are pretty much the same...like if you buy a Toyota or a Nissan, Honda etc. it'a all pretty much the same type of car with a different emblem, dime a dozen. When I was at Valley Forge this year and went from booth to booth it was pretty much the same thing. There were only a couple of cuemakers that stood out.

The best living cuemakers cues not only hold their value but also appreciate in value. There are perhaps maybe 8 living cuemakers that fit in this catagory.

There are some cuemakers that do nice work but pump out a lot of cues and that affects value. There are some big name cuemakers that get big money for their cues and when put on the secondary market a year later bring much less than the original price and that's ok if your goal is not buying the cue as an investment.

I have a very short list of living cuemakers that I buy from or would buy from. I collect certain cues for master workmanship,playability and certain asthetic qualities and if you select right there isn't any concern about marketability and resale.

From where I sit the market is very good.

Good choice in words scott and you have great taste in cues

 

[SphinxnihpS]

So that's where that Manzino went to! I wondered why it never appeared on Cornerstone's site, and now I know why. I have only seen pictures, but that's hands down the best executed and tastefully done yet superbly gaudy cue ever made. I love it! Manzino is a master.

 

[billfishhead]

I believe Dale Perrys can be found on ebay

 

[TATE]

I believe Dale Perrys can be found on ebay

Thanks for the information.

 

[MikeH]

I believe Dale Perrys can be found on ebay

**Chuckle**

-Mike

 

[cueaddicts]

Interesting thread. I have many of the same sentiments as other posters about the market. All my opinions of course, so here goes....

Over the past 5-7 years the market seems to have become overly saturated with new cuemakers (perhaps a grave understatement). The number of cuemakers has drastically increased compared to the number of pool players...at least the ones who are serious enough about it to purchase custom equipment. This has resulted in a market that is very oversaturated with cues up to the $1500 range. The choices are seemingly limitless and most everybody has nice quality now, with one exception being shaft wood.

Also, there are so many "dealers", especially of the production stuff (like Schons, McDermotts, Dale Perrys, etc.) that there is no hope of them holding any kind of value on the secondary market as they did pre-2000. ANYONE it seems can find somebody to sell them a real nice production cue at 50% or in some cases even more off retail. This has killed what little collectibility there was in that market altogether. IMO, no one but the manufacturers to blame for that.

While all of this has happened, the longer time collectors and cue buffs have been really zeroed in on what it is they want to collect or have on-hand. People's tastes have been honed over the years. That makes it tougher and tougher to move those mid-range $1500-$3500 cues. One reason is that many of these cues have moved out of private collections and back into the market as buyer have upgraded. That's all in addition to the newer ones being made. A lot of the astute buyers who have been a round cues awhile aren't into that price rnage market anymore.

There are still buyers for some of the brands of lower end players cues and, of course, the ultra-high end stuff, but we see much fewer buyers for the mid range stuff. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.

Another aspect of the "slow market we seem to be in" was a rush-job and poorly edited BB III with respect to real market pricing. Some of the pricing is dead-on, but some is WAY OFF. But there are many other threads to read about that on.

So in summary, unless you've got one of about a dozen to fifteen or so custom cuemakers, the values on the secondary market seems to have dimished for many of the nice cues. I hope that it changes in the near future but you never can tell. IMO, pool needs some kind of a major industry boost like TCOM did in the mid-to-late 80s. From what I'm seeing, the IPT hasn't approached that yet.

These are observations based on our website traffic, trade shows, and of course speaking with many folks in the custom cue market. Feel free to agree or disagree, as these are just my personal opinions.

Sean

 

[ridewiththewind]

Interesting thread. I have many of the same sentiments as other posters about the market. All my opinions of course, so here goes....

Over the past 5-7 years the market seems to have become overly saturated with new cuemakers (perhaps a grave understatement). The number of cuemakers has drastically increased compared to the number of pool players...at least the ones who are serious enough about it to purchase custom equipment. This has resulted in a market that is very oversaturated with cues up to the $1500 range. The choices are seemingly limitless and most everybody has nice quality now, with one exception being shaft wood.

Also, there are so many "dealers", especially of the production stuff (like Schons, McDermotts, Dale Perrys, etc.) that there is no hope of them holding any kind of value on the secondary market as they did pre-2000. ANYONE it seems can find somebody to sell them a real nice production cue at 50% or in some cases even more off retail. This has killed what little collectibility there was in that market altogether. IMO, no one but the manufacturers to blame for that.

While all of this has happened, the longer time collectors and cue buffs have been really zeroed in on what it is they want to collect or have on-hand. People's tastes have been honed over the years. That makes it tougher and tougher to move those mid-range $1500-$3500 cues. One reason is that many of these cues have moved out of private collections and back into the market as buyer have upgraded. That's all in addition to the newer ones being made. A lot of the astute buyers who have been a round cues awhile aren't into that price rnage market anymore.

There are still buyers for some of the brands of lower end players cues and, of course, the ultra-high end stuff, but we see much fewer buyers for the mid range stuff. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.

Another aspect of the "slow market we seem to be in" was a rush-job and poorly edited BB III with respect to real market pricing. Some of the pricing is dead-on, but some is WAY OFF. But there are many other threads to read about that on.

So in summary, unless you've got one of about a dozen to fifteen or so custom cuemakers, the values on the secondary market seems to have dimished for many of the nice cues. I hope that it changes in the near future but you never can tell. IMO, pool needs some kind of a major industry boost like TCOM did in the mid-to-late 80s. From what I'm seeing, the IPT hasn't approached that yet.

These are observations based on our website traffic, trade shows, and of course speaking with many folks in the custom cue market. Feel free to agree or disagree, as these are just my personal opinions.

Sean

It's nice to know that my observations (and continuing education ) seem to be inline with those who are more in the know.

It's a shame, because as Sean has stated, there are some very nice, quality cues out there....many more so in the last 5+ years. Which is great for the casual custom cue purchaser looking for a nice playing cue, perhaps not so nice for those looking to starting to collect, because the choices are many, while the real collectibility value is few.

Lisa

 

[pathman]

Nice post Sean, I totally agree that the market for 1500.00 and up cues is a real minefield, you have to be extremely carefull as a buyer or seller. Not being in the re-sell business, I only try out cues that I wouldn't mind keeping if they don't flip easily. I have a natural dislike for custom cue brokers because I still think custom cues should only be bought from the builders, but my hat is off to you, dealing with the swings in this market is enought to give you ulcers. I could not imagine trying to make a dollar in this business.

 

[ScottR]

So that's where that Manzino went to! I wondered why it never appeared on Cornerstone's site, and now I know why. I have only seen pictures, but that's hands down the best executed and tastefully done yet superbly gaudy cue ever made. I love it! Manzino is a master.

I love the way you worded this!! There are very few cues, IMHO, that ride that wonderful line between too much and just right. This Manzino is one of them. Tap, tap.

Also . . . . Great post, Sean!

 

[TATE]

Over the past 5-7 years the market seems to have become overly saturated with new cuemakers...

...This has resulted in a market that is very oversaturated with cues up to the $1500 range.

...While all of this has happened, the longer time collectors and cue buffs have been really zeroed in on what it is they want to collect or have on-hand. People's tastes have been honed over the years. That makes it tougher and tougher to move those mid-range $1500-$3500 cues. One reason is that many of these cues have moved out of private collections and back into the market as buyer have upgraded. That's all in addition to the newer ones being made. A lot of the astute buyers who have been a round cues awhile aren't into that price rnage market anymore.

Excellent observation, Sean. This was a big factor. As these larger collectors ejected their "maybe not so collectible anymore" mid range cues, it brought more than a few names crashing back to reality. This starts a downward spiral in values that bottoms out only when the smaller collectors, value buyers and players, buy up the bargains.

The prices were driven in a hot market, a frenzy. The high prices attracted a lot of cue makers, and surprise, prices plunge when supply is high.

Seems like the buyers all pile into the same names and jump out of the pool at the same time too. You still see it today, just the names have changed.

My advice is, if you want a great investment, then you.... should..... buy.............................................................................................................d..amn ...th..is.........keyboar........d..........is..........stuc......k

Chris

 

[asiasdad]

Nice post Sean, I totally agree that the market for 1500.00 and up cues is a real minefield, you have to be extremely carefull as a buyer or seller. Not being in the re-sell business, I only try out cues that I wouldn't mind keeping if they don't flip easily. I have a natural dislike for custom cue brokers because I still think custom cues should only be bought from the builders, but my hat is off to you, dealing with the swings in this market is enought to give you ulcers. I could not imagine trying to make a dollar in this business.

I'll throw in my .02 now....It seems that any Larry, Curly, and Moe can set up a website and call themselves a cue dealer these days...the saturation in "dealers" has to have the same effect as having 17 Ford dealers in Portland, Oregon compared to only 4 in the city of Las Vegas which happens to have twice the population base as Portland.

disclaimer: asiasdad is not a cue dealer nor does he work in a Ford dealership

 

[ibuycues]

Good Investments

Top collectors are always on the prowl for:
Ginacue, Schick, Josswest, Mottey, Szamboti (G or B), Hercek, fancy South West, Searing, Tad, Kersenbrock, Balabushka.....

On second thought, don`t forget:
Tascarella, Scruggs, McWorter, Chudy, Black, Manzino, Gilbert, Nitti, Haley, Early Palmer, Fanelli, Wayne, Bender, Samsara........

Oh, Heck, never mind, I think there is still a LOT of collecting going on even as we speak. The phone`s ringing, and a cue is about to have a new owner, I`ve got to go......

.....By the way, did we talk about Justis, Whitten, Flowers, Swift, Thomas, Fellini, Centennial, A. Gore, ......

STOP. I`ve got to go!

Will ( A collector)