It's possible. I doubt there will ever be a replacement for good maple, but there's most definitely room for an alternative.
Cue construction
- Thread starter luke
- Start date
It's possible. I doubt there will ever be a replacement for good maple, but there's most definitely room for an alternative.
I hope you are right
I don't want to replace maple, I don't want to see synthetic shafts at all. It just seems to be where the trend will end up. I could easily see a shaft coming along with a little bit of wood particles and a lot of something else like some of the "leather" tips. Like a lot of things that seem likely to come in the future, I'm not thrilled about it. I want real wood. Reminds me, I need to go pick up some maple I just cut on my dam a couple days ago. Junk as far as cue wood but it will turn nicely on my wood lathe.
Hu
I don't want to replace maple, I don't want to see synthetic shafts at all. It just seems to be where the trend will end up. I could easily see a shaft coming along with a little bit of wood particles and a lot of something else like some of the "leather" tips. Like a lot of things that seem likely to come in the future, I'm not thrilled about it. I want real wood. Reminds me, I need to go pick up some maple I just cut on my dam a couple days ago. Junk as far as cue wood but it will turn nicely on my wood lathe.
Hu
What kind of wood turnings do you make? I know a guy that knows a guy that knows another guy who may or may not have a load of burls and figured woods that aren't sized good for cues, but would be awesome bowls & other wood stuff.
Bowls and hollow forms and such
I turn bowls and various hollow forms, goblets, whatever me and the wood are in the mood for it to become that day. Always interested in wood but I wouldn't know where to put it right now. I'll e-mail for more info since I see you don't like PM's. Like everyone already buried in wood I figure a little more can't hurt!
Thanks,
Hu
I turn bowls and various hollow forms, goblets, whatever me and the wood are in the mood for it to become that day. Always interested in wood but I wouldn't know where to put it right now. I'll e-mail for more info since I see you don't like PM's. Like everyone already buried in wood I figure a little more can't hurt!
Thanks,
Hu
Not an argument unless you make it one. It's a discussion.
You seem to snipe and run away often.
Maybe someday you will learn to actually provide some reasoning for the statements you make so that the discussion can actually produce some meaningful two-way understanding.
But that's not your style. Your style is PROCLAIM a position and then refuse to discuss WHY you hold that position.
People like me write a lot of words to support our position for the same reason Kerry x-rayed a lot of cues....to UNDERSTAND the subject deeply through study and thought.
I am quite happy to be educated by the cue makers on this forum to fill in what I don't know about. But I certainly don't have to be proclaimed to by holier-than-thou folks like you who are too good to explain your "opinion" to the rest of us.
And your buddy Dale is almost as bad except that occassionally he will explain his position in as condescending a tone as possible.
Both of you are pretty much worthless to the overall content of the forum and what a forum is about IMO. And remember, you can't ARGUE with my opinion.
Where is Noah Webster when we need him?
An argument IS a discussion - I suspect the word you wanted is quarrel.
quar·rel1
ˈkwôrəl,ˈkwärəl/
noun
1.
an angry argument or disagreement,
Funny - JAM needed the same lesson...
Dale
That's right. Because of terrible glue and obvious manufacturing deficiencies, I will be offering to buy all Gus Szambotis, and Balabushka's at 1/4 of the Blue Book.
Oh wait... that is what I do already...
:grin:
JV
Oh wait... that is what I do already...
:grin:JV
And nothing beats arguing over something that is SUBJECTIVE.
Hey, I think Hagler was robbed against Leonard.
But wait, I don't know more about boxing than the NSAC and the appointed judges.
I didn't want a quarrel. I did have a quibble. Which I voiced and you turned into a quarrel. Another turned it into a battle, while another just threw red herrings as a distraction. Had the quibble been directly answered then the discussion could have peacefully continued but the twaddle and twiddle had to be dealt with in order to sort the sense from the nonsense and get on with the business of finding the consensus.
When I am angry you will know it. As it is I am just content to be right. You and Joey can be flip and glib all you like but it doesn't make you right nor helpful. And you don't have to right either, no shame in being wrong if you are willing to learn and trying to help. You peas in a pod are neither IMO. Which, according to you, opinion is unassailable because a thought expressed as an opinion cannot be challenged. So there you go, don't dwell on it or bother to quarrel with me because my logic is impeccable. ;-)
That's right. Because of terrible glue and obvious manufacturing deficiencies, I will be offering to buy all Gus Szambotis, and Balabushka's at 1/4 of the Blue Book.
Oh wait... that is what I do already...
JV
Who wants those ?
They don't com with pearly white laminated shafts.:grin:
Aside from the generalities of your lecture on basic manufacturing where can you find the "worse than before" cues?
Let's talk specifics. 25 years ago was 1989. I was in the cue business then, also a frequent flea marketer throughout the 80s. The place to buy the worst cues was at the flea market. Those were the ramin wood ones.
Ramin wood has been banned from use for over a decade maybe longer.
Since I am in the business I have been fortunate enough to visit factories that make most of the world's cheap cues and I round that out with visits to the retail outlets where most of those cheap cues go to. Sears, Kmart, Wal-Mart, Dick's Sporting Goods etc...
In addition I have been to the factories that make mid-range and even try to dabble in high-end cues. Worked in one of them.
In the showroom of one of them is 40 years of cue samples. From the el cheapo ramin wood cues to cues sold under the brands of many world champions from Mizerak to Sigel in many disciplines. It is a fascinating, to me, history of cue manufacturing presented in one large showroom. Pretty much every type of cue ever built using pretty much every major construction method is represented.
The one thing you forgot, or perhaps more likely don't even know, in your lesson above on manufacturing is the development aspect. Because you see in addition to always looking to become more efficient and lower costs, some makers are very much into learning the best methods and implementing them at scale. Some CUE manufacturers are blessed (or cursed) with a broad range of clients demanding a broad range of cues.
One client might be a cue maker who wants cues built his way. Another might be a player who wants a line built his way. Another might be a distributor who wants cues built the way he thinks his customers want. Having the ability to fulfill all these orders means that the cue maker's factory has to be adept at doing just about every technique that has ever been tried to make cues. They have to never stop learning, stay abreast of new materials, new methods, and even invent some of their own, to insure that their product meets the client's demands consistently.
Now, I have seen all this first hand. I have seen it play out since 1997 when I first set foot into Asian cue making operations, since I brokered the sale of two containers of wood from Jerry Pechauer to Taiwan, since I spent a week at Bludworth's house filming his lessons to an asian client about a 4 head CNC milling machine.
So again, I ask you, where do you find the cues today that are worse than the worst ones built 25 years ago?
This was the worst 25 years ago - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pool-Cue-2-...065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item339648bb69
You can even buy the vintage version 1988 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-198...101?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33964d7a65
Now you can't even find these made new anymore. Oh there might be one or two outlets somewhere but for the most part the level of quality has risen dramatically to the point where even $36 cues are decent. http://www.cuesight.com/stdcbk.html
So I disagree that the worst cues today are worse than the worst ones 25 years ago. It's not even close, the worst ones made today are still much better than the worst ones made then. But that's not even what we are really talking about in this thread as I interpret it.
I think we are talking about the McDermott/Meucci/Viking class of cues and whether that level is better or not. And I doubt that any of those companies, even Meucci, will say that their 1989 cues are better than their 2014 cues.
Bill Stroud told me once that he charged $300 (I think) for shafts because he threw away 75% of the already highly graded shaft wood that he bought. Don't know if that's true but that's what he said.
Nelson Tsai, the owner of Fury Cues, told me that they have to process 60,000 shaft dowels to get just 300 AA grade shafts. You go into his wood warehouse and can see about a million shafts hanging in racks in various stages of cutting and seasoning. They are regraded after each cut and moved to the right section.
And nothing beats arguing over something that is SUBJECTIVE.
Hey, I think Hagler was robbed against Leonard.
But wait, I don't know more about boxing than the NSAC and the appointed judges.
Well gee, one would expect a cue maker's answer to be OBJECTIVE. You know because of their experience with um... well you know, making cues.....
Could you tell us all Joey what makes your cue better than an 80s Adam or an 80s Schon? Objectively this time please.
That would be disparagement of Adam and Schon, if I did that .
That wouldn't be objective either. It'd still be subjective.
Those are fine cues. :smile:
Bill was jerking your chain a bit with exaggeration, though he did charge $300/shaft and did throw away a lot of shafts to only stock good ones. 75% is a stretch, though. 50% might be closer to accurate, and not uncommon among top tier builders.
60,000 shafts to get only 300 good ones is a bit more of a stretch, in my somewhat educated opinion. That's .5% yield. John, you don't believe that, do you? That would be like you entirely buying out the Fort Worth Stockyards auction just so you could make one run of the mill case. Somebody's blowing smoke. If beginning with high grade logs, which given the projected product they should be, the yield of top grade shafts will average 30%. The only way to make his statement true is if they are starting with junk logs, which obviously will never produce a good shaft. If the log isn't straight, then neither is the grain inside it. That would make horrible business sense because it still requires the exact same machine operations, so I highly doubt that's the case. If that guy is willing to pay for 60,000 shafts to get 300 good ones, then send him my way. I will supply his 300 good shafts for half the cost, and he won't have to dispose of 59,600 junkers :thumbup:
RBC
Deceased
just for starters
Just for starters head to walmart and look at all the cues made in china. They start at $3.99 or on sale for $1.99. Do you think those are better than older cues?
As for verification, you can't verify a thing you say beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no proof you have ever seen a real piece of leather before it was turned into sheet stock and pretty strong proof you never did. I have no proof you have ever made a single cue case yourself. Your factory runs just fine with you gone, probably better. I have no proof you have ever been inside a cue manufacturers. I have no proof you have seen a million shaft blanks but I do know for damned sure you never inspected a million and wouldn't know the wood from a radio if you did according to your own claims. I have no proof that you are "john barton" or that you were once "john colins" with an L or two or any spelling whatsoever. I have no proof you exist except as some malicious child's alter ego. Hard to believe anything about your internet personality is real between the remarkable ignorance and huge ego with no justification.
Lou, did you see any ID when you played this "john barton"? As dense as the internet "john barton" is he might have slipped that loser in on you as a can't fail ringer!
Seems like a post awhile back by someone in a position to know listed at least four or five names associated with this "john barton" identity. Some male, at least one female. I sometimes wonder if he is male and as they delicately say about stallions, intact. He often seems like some really snippy females I have known, thank heavens other people's wives! He also reminds me of a "wife" in a gay couple. They were serious down on the bayou Cajuns and for some reason it seemed terribly incongruous for two native French speaking Cajuns to be openly gay thirty years ago.
"barton, the john" does he exist or is he just one persona of someone that is so many people he doesn't know who or what he is himself, herself, or itself, whatever the case may be. "As the World Turns . . . "
Hu
Just for starters head to walmart and look at all the cues made in china. They start at $3.99 or on sale for $1.99. Do you think those are better than older cues?
As for verification, you can't verify a thing you say beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no proof you have ever seen a real piece of leather before it was turned into sheet stock and pretty strong proof you never did. I have no proof you have ever made a single cue case yourself. Your factory runs just fine with you gone, probably better. I have no proof you have ever been inside a cue manufacturers. I have no proof you have seen a million shaft blanks but I do know for damned sure you never inspected a million and wouldn't know the wood from a radio if you did according to your own claims. I have no proof that you are "john barton" or that you were once "john colins" with an L or two or any spelling whatsoever. I have no proof you exist except as some malicious child's alter ego. Hard to believe anything about your internet personality is real between the remarkable ignorance and huge ego with no justification.
Lou, did you see any ID when you played this "john barton"? As dense as the internet "john barton" is he might have slipped that loser in on you as a can't fail ringer!
Seems like a post awhile back by someone in a position to know listed at least four or five names associated with this "john barton" identity. Some male, at least one female. I sometimes wonder if he is male and as they delicately say about stallions, intact. He often seems like some really snippy females I have known, thank heavens other people's wives! He also reminds me of a "wife" in a gay couple. They were serious down on the bayou Cajuns and for some reason it seemed terribly incongruous for two native French speaking Cajuns to be openly gay thirty years ago.
"barton, the john" does he exist or is he just one persona of someone that is so many people he doesn't know who or what he is himself, herself, or itself, whatever the case may be. "As the World Turns . . . "
Hu
Bill was jerking your chain a bit with exaggeration, though he did charge $300/shaft and did throw away a lot of shafts to only stock good ones. 75% is a stretch, though. 50% might be closer to accurate, and not uncommon among top tier builders.
60,000 shafts to get only 300 good ones is a bit more of a stretch, in my somewhat educated opinion. That's .5% yield. John, you don't believe that, do you? That would be like you entirely buying out the Fort Worth Stockyards auction just so you could make one run of the mill case. Somebody's blowing smoke. If beginning with high grade logs, which given the projected product they should be, the yield of top grade shafts will average 30%. The only way to make his statement true is if they are starting with junk logs, which obviously will never produce a good shaft. If the log isn't straight, then neither is the grain inside it. That would make horrible business sense because it still requires the exact same machine operations, so I highly doubt that's the case. If that guy is willing to pay for 60,000 shafts to get 300 good ones, then send him my way. I will supply his 300 good shafts for half the cost, and he won't have to dispose of 59,600 junkers
I did question it and Nelson explained and showed me how they grade. So it is true. However they don't throw away the lesser grades. They use everything they can since they make about 100,000 cues a month when they are really busy.
What they can't use in cues goes into the furnace to provide power to the factory.
I actually worked there for a year. Someday I will show you the pictures.
Stay on topic baby Huey. And yes even cheap wal mart cues which are not $3 are better than cues in the similar price class 25 years ago. Try reading before replying.