Cue Stick on Table foul
- Thread starter Pangit
- Start date
Rodney got called for it ~5+ yr ago. WPC, I do beelieve.
According to my info, the World Standard Rules & BCAPL Rules are just about the same.
I may lay my cue stick on the table at any time during my turn at the table. When it becomes a foul is if I use my cue stick as an aiming device and not holding on to it.
randyg
I may lay my cue stick on the table at any time during my turn at the table. When it becomes a foul is if I use my cue stick as an aiming device and not holding on to it.
randyg
Saw Mike Dechaine call it on Kim Davenport in the Open a few years back.
Standard foul. Here is the wording from the World Standardized Rules:
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.
My own feeling is that the player should not be restricted in what he does with the cue stick except if it touches a ball. The only argument I've heard in favor of this rule is that some players meticulously measure out each angle, placing the stick on the table and walking around to the other side, moving the stick a little, rechecking, .... If that is a problem, charge them with unsportsmanlike delay of game or put them on the clock. I don't think we need a separate rule for this.If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.
I don't have a problem with this rule. Why would someone ever need to lay their cue on the table to assist them with aiming? We don't allow other aiming devices to be placed on the table so I don't see why we should allow the cue stick to become such a device.
I do wonder about this though:
I often times will use my cue to check the contact point on the object ball. I do this by placing the tip of the cue stick right near the object ball. Often times this will leave a chalk mark next to the object ball. If I notice this I always brush the chalk mark off by hand but I've wondered if that could be called a foul. Anybody know that one?
Official BCAPL info and other stuff
Actually, removing your hand from the cue it is not a foul in BCAPL play. BCAPL Rule 1.3.1(a) applies.
If the ref/TD has a lick of sense, absolutely correct under WSR 6.12. The rule specifies use as an alignment tool, not a set-aside to tie a shoe or some other non-alignment issue.
That having been said, laying the stick on the table for other than alignment purposes involves some peril under WSR if done carelessly or if the ref/TD doesn't have a lick of sense. It is not inconceivably that the stick could inadvertently end up in a position that might give the appearance of alignment. Or a weak ref/TD might not have the sense to determine intent before issuing a foul.
Both BCAPL and WSR, ball in hand
Different rule. BCAPL 1.39, Marking the Table, or WSR 6.16(h), UC. BIH under BCAPL, referee discretion under WSR.
This is another case where a good ref must determine intent under BCAPL, and should determine intent under WSR, although WSR does not address intent in its wording.
Your aiming method is not uncommon, and I would have to see you actually do it because there are many variations. There could be a dozen variables for any given call, but as a ref called in after the fact I'm gonna need some damning evidence before I call a foul, like marks all over the table from multiple occurrences, and even then I might just issue a warning if I have no firm evidence that the mark is not just incidental to your PSR and the mark itself is not being used to aim during the shot.
The only time I have ever even came close to calling this in a tournament was when I came up to the table and found it covered with 1/2" long chalk lines. The culprit was using your aiming method accessorized with a stick wiggle along the target line. I was extremely tempted to call the foul - the reason I did not was because the plaintiff, who was being a complete jackass from the moment I got to the table, was losing 4-0 in a race to 5 and there were only a few balls left on the table. I would have been much more likely to call the foul or at least issue a warning if the complaint had been made in the middle of game one. I issued the defendant a gentle admonishment that he was putting himself in peril with his PSR. Plaintiff appealed to the Head on duty, and was sent packing.
On a side note, given a foul situation, removal of the mark before shooting will not save you under either rule set. The "OK-to-remove-the-mark-before-shooting" clause disappeared from WSR in 2003, and has never existed in BCAPL.
:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
Actually, removing your hand from the cue it is not a foul in BCAPL play. BCAPL Rule 1.3.1(a) applies.
If the ref/TD has a lick of sense, absolutely correct under WSR 6.12. The rule specifies use as an alignment tool, not a set-aside to tie a shoe or some other non-alignment issue.
That having been said, laying the stick on the table for other than alignment purposes involves some peril under WSR if done carelessly or if the ref/TD doesn't have a lick of sense. It is not inconceivably that the stick could inadvertently end up in a position that might give the appearance of alignment. Or a weak ref/TD might not have the sense to determine intent before issuing a foul.
BumpnRun said:
Both BCAPL and WSR, ball in hand
BasementDweller said:
Different rule. BCAPL 1.39, Marking the Table, or WSR 6.16(h), UC. BIH under BCAPL, referee discretion under WSR.
This is another case where a good ref must determine intent under BCAPL, and should determine intent under WSR, although WSR does not address intent in its wording.
Your aiming method is not uncommon, and I would have to see you actually do it because there are many variations. There could be a dozen variables for any given call, but as a ref called in after the fact I'm gonna need some damning evidence before I call a foul, like marks all over the table from multiple occurrences, and even then I might just issue a warning if I have no firm evidence that the mark is not just incidental to your PSR and the mark itself is not being used to aim during the shot.
The only time I have ever even came close to calling this in a tournament was when I came up to the table and found it covered with 1/2" long chalk lines. The culprit was using your aiming method accessorized with a stick wiggle along the target line. I was extremely tempted to call the foul - the reason I did not was because the plaintiff, who was being a complete jackass from the moment I got to the table, was losing 4-0 in a race to 5 and there were only a few balls left on the table. I would have been much more likely to call the foul or at least issue a warning if the complaint had been made in the middle of game one. I issued the defendant a gentle admonishment that he was putting himself in peril with his PSR. Plaintiff appealed to the Head on duty, and was sent packing.
On a side note, given a foul situation, removal of the mark before shooting will not save you under either rule set. The "OK-to-remove-the-mark-before-shooting" clause disappeared from WSR in 2003, and has never existed in BCAPL.
:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
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Not unless it is obvious...
You are not allowed to mark the table; however, I called it on an opponent in a CSI tenball qualifier and the director said that unless he was obviously marking the table it wouldn't be a foul.
Jaden
You are not allowed to mark the table; however, I called it on an opponent in a CSI tenball qualifier and the director said that unless he was obviously marking the table it wouldn't be a foul.
Jaden
I agree, I can't remember the last time I saw anybody do this. Seems like a needless rule which is more likely to cause a big fight than anything constructive.