Cue tips test hardness with "Durometer"

Charlie Edwards

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
im not sure a durometer is the correct device for measuring pool cue tip hardness. im an engineer and work with plastics alot in my industry and the duramoter is a commonly used tool. the issue with measuring cue tips is they are layered and there are different densities throughout the tip. as stated above it is more practicle to measure multiple points and even then, the irrregularities can only distort the test results. another issue with this is we would have to know more about the quality control of the manufacturing facilities. this is where we would need samples from multiple batches/production runs.

im not trying to overcomplicate things or dismiss someones work its just my experiences taught me to overanalyze in the pursuit of logical problem solving. this aids me in my work to prevent failures in our products.

Moori weighs each tip and considers the heavy ones to be the hardest and grades them accordingly.
 

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have 2 durometers, one an A type, the other the D type.
I prefer the sharp point one, as the numbers from it are more consistent. The flat end one gives readings upto 99, which makes it a non value. 99 means the probe only penetrated the surface by .001 inch
The pointed one give readings like 60 to 80 something. The tip penetration is like .040 to .020 or so
Considering the tip picks that are on the market and other similar tools, I don't think the testing does any measurable damage to the tips.
Tips do change over time. I have been testing the tips of customers cues coming in for tip replacements.
I have found that almost all tips test in the 78 to 83 on the crown. But the sides show results closer to the original tip hardness.Often there is a 8 to 13 point difference.
This maybe why people like tips after the run in and why others like the way new tips play with a more consistent overall hardness.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Moori weighs each tip and considers the heavy ones to be the hardest and grades them accordingly.

That is very interesting, I did not know that. Thanks.

Although I don't know that weight would necessarily be an accurate gauge. A couple drops of oil or even water would make a tip heavier.

I would have guessed that they were using different skins to get to the different hardness grades.

Another reason why I don't want to get into tips. But the more I think about it the more I want to make a run at Tweeten market share rather than Moori's.
 

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been weighing tips and then testing for hardness tonight.
The weights of the tips varied from 16.2 grains to 18.6 grains. The hardness variations were 68 to 70. There was no evidence to show the heavier tips were harder or the lighter tips were softer.These were 2 different brands of medium tips.
I tested 10 Hard tips. They were 73 to 75 on my durometer. The weight range of the sample was 16.8 to 18.8 grains. Again the lightest tip was not the softest and the heaviest was not the hardest.
I have not compared tip height differences in the samples.
I was expecting alot to see more of a weight shift than I did.The biggest surprise was seeing 2 different brand medium tips in the same weight and hardness range. One lot of medium tips was slightly closer in the weight range, 16.6grains to 17.4 grains,but with the same duro reading range, 68 to 70.
Neil
 

TheThaiger

Banned
That is very interesting, I did not know that. Thanks.

Although I don't know that weight would necessarily be an accurate gauge. A couple drops of oil or even water would make a tip heavier.

I would have guessed that they were using different skins to get to the different hardness grades.

Another reason why I don't want to get into tips. But the more I think about it the more I want to make a run at Tweeten market share rather than Moori's.

Do you think you can make a good quality tip for less than the 50 cents Triangles sell for? Tweeten's unit production cost must be virtually nothing to make money on those - hard to compete there, I'd say.

I reckon there's value in treated budget tips, however. Pimp 'em, tidy 'em, brand 'em and flog 'em.
 

Charlie Edwards

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is very interesting, I did not know that. Thanks.

Although I don't know that weight would necessarily be an accurate gauge. A couple drops of oil or even water would make a tip heavier.

I would have guessed that they were using different skins to get to the different hardness grades.

Another reason why I don't want to get into tips. But the more I think about it the more I want to make a run at Tweeten market share rather than Moori's.

John, if you get into making non layered tips, try to duplicate the old original French Champions... the best tip ever made. I can send you a few if you are interested.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Do you think you can make a good quality tip for less than the 50 cents Triangles sell for? Tweeten's unit production cost must be virtually nothing to make money on those - hard to compete there, I'd say.

I reckon there's value in treated budget tips, however. Pimp 'em, tidy 'em, brand 'em and flog 'em.

Why wouldn't I be able to? Do you think that Tweeten has some magic method that is impossible to duplicate?

I imagine that they have the leather tanned a certain way at a certain thickness and they punch them out and dress them up and ship them out.

There are other brands of single layer tips on the market. And as previously mentioned I had a five layer tip that was well received. I didn't bother with grading them and when people asked I said try it. And they did and we didn't get a single complaint. On the contrary they wanted more.

So I'd settle for making something like that and eating into say 20% of Tweeten's market share. I am in the leather business so it's not outside the realm of possibility. After all Kamui tried to get into the case business so all's fair :)
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
John, if you get into making non layered tips, try to duplicate the old original French Champions... the best tip ever made. I can send you a few if you are interested.

Ok. I will take you up on that. But sometime in 2012. Still getting my ducks in a row with the case business. Thank you.
 

SLIM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very interesting.

the shore "a" durometer will not measure cue tips due to the fact that they are too dense or hard.
Shore "a" is for measuring things like rubber gaskets or o-rings.

Before you measure anything with any durometer you need to calibrate it with a material of known hardness or a calibration standard or you have no idea if you are getting a correct reading.

SLIM
 

Luc Comtois

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hope this help most of you with this DUROMETER HARDNESS TEST ON TIPS.

"Blue milk duds"ELK MATER TIPS PRESS BY (POOLDAWG8) JEFF VERY CONSISTENT PLAYER TIPS:thumbup:
73.5, 73.0, AND 74.0

OLD ELK MASTER ORIGINAL TIPS
65.0

BLACK DIAMOND TIPS
81.0

BLACK KING TIPS
(S) 65.5 (M) 67.5 (H) 70.5

BLUE ELF TIPS
76.0

BAMMA TIPS
66.0

TRIUMPH TIPS
70.0

TRIANGLE TIPS
73.5

TIGER SNIPER TIPS
67.0

KAMUI TIPS
(H. BROWN) 73.5 (M. BROWN) 71.0 (S. BROWN) 62.5
(H. BLACK) 73.5 (M. BLACK) 72.5 (S. BLACK) 62.0

MORRI TIPS
(1ST GEN. WITH "S" ONLY) 62.0
(2ND GEN. SOFT) 71.0 (OLD MEDIUM) 77.0 (M III) 75.0

TAD TIPS
(M) 75.0

SAMSARA JUMP TIPS
86.0

SUPERPRO TIPS
81.0

LePRO TIPS
74.5

TALISMAN TIPS
(M) 70.5

WB USA TIPS
77.0


Hi FLYINGSNAIL,

Where I could bye a durometer tool/machine ?

Thanks.

Lucas,
From Lucas Cue Shop
 

billiardcue

11th Commandment
Silver Member
Szamboti durometer

One of the times I was visiting Barry Szamboti I noticed a small glass bowl (pudding dish) sitting a machine. It was filled with tips, Barry's reject pile.

Each tip had bite marks in it. Barry bites the tips between two molars, depending on his feel and the depth of the dents he either accepts or rejects the tip.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
One of the times I was visiting Barry Szamboti I noticed a small glass bowl (pudding dish) sitting a machine. It was filled with tips, Barry's reject pile.

Each tip had bite marks in it. Barry bites the tips between two molars, depending on his feel and the depth of the dents he either accepts or rejects the tip.

So basically what you are saying is that every Szamboti cue is LITERALLY delivered with Szamboti DNA built in.

:)
 

McChen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the tiger laminated...it's harder and crisper than the everest IME. it kind of glazes over easier though, the everest holds chalk quite well.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the times I was visiting Barry Szamboti I noticed a small glass bowl (pudding dish) sitting a machine. It was filled with tips, Barry's reject pile.

Each tip had bite marks in it. Barry bites the tips between two molars, depending on his feel and the depth of the dents he either accepts or rejects the tip.

Laminated tips are better fried. One piece tips should be baked.
 

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been doing the same since the late eighties. I haven't bought a box of tips since then so my rejects were selected out a long time ago.

I used them to experiment with making milk duds. Rejects are not dead....they are just waiting to be re-pressed IMHO. :wink:
 

smokey

let's roll
Silver Member
i am sorry to be negative on this thread. but if you know me you know that i truly doubt what i know and know what i don't know, if that makes any sense... all in - i don't know much

when it comes to leather, even with the above being true, it would be fair to say that few folks on this site have had as much experience as i have with leather

i can say: tucker is a master, brilliant if you will

the rest of the peanut gallery here have no idea, for sure
with the exception of JB, no one has any knowledge of tips or of tip making. most importantly not even the tip makers themselves. you think that if a tip costs more it is better. or, if a tip is laminated it is better. so, if it costs more = it is better

sorry to tell you, you are all wrong who believe that

please think. if a cue maker thought that a $25.00 tip would enhance their custom cue wouldn't they make his/her cue better with one? why in the world would they not use it and use a triangle or le pro or elk master instead?

to save a few bucks? are you kidding me?

in the end all i can impart here is; enjoy your expensive tips while you 'believe' they are some sort of panacea for you game

i know for sure that is not the case

all the best,
smokey
 

ratcues

Theewen Custom Cues
Silver Member
the rest of the peanut gallery here have no idea, for sure
with the exception of JB, no one has any knowledge of tips or of tip making. most importantly not even the tip makers themselves. you think that if a tip costs more it is better. or, if a tip is laminated it is better. so, if it costs more = it is better

sorry to tell you, you are all wrong who believe that

please think. if a cue maker thought that a $25.00 tip would enhance their custom cue wouldn't they make his/her cue better with one? why in the world would they not use it and use a triangle or le pro or elk master instead?

to save a few bucks? are you kidding me?

smokey

I'm not sure if I am agreeing or disagreeing but I want to give you my perspective. Tips have changed dramatically over the 16 years I have been doing this. This is what I have learned;

1. I do not, for one second, believe that a tip that cost more is better.
2. Players and cue smiths often misuse the hardness rating.
3. A player must match a tip to his/her game.
4. Cue makers install cheaper tips on spec cues because of the vast selection of tips. No sense installing their favorite "$$$ tip" if the player wants to cut it off and play with something else.
5. Tips need to be consistent, from tip to tip, and throughout the life of the tip.

Most important; Pool is about consistency.
 
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