Moori weighs each tip and considers the heavy ones to be the hardest and grades them accordingly.
Cue tips test hardness with "Durometer"
- Thread starter FLYINGSNAIL
- Start date
Moori weighs each tip and considers the heavy ones to be the hardest and grades them accordingly.
I have 2 durometers, one an A type, the other the D type.
I prefer the sharp point one, as the numbers from it are more consistent. The flat end one gives readings upto 99, which makes it a non value. 99 means the probe only penetrated the surface by .001 inch
The pointed one give readings like 60 to 80 something. The tip penetration is like .040 to .020 or so
Considering the tip picks that are on the market and other similar tools, I don't think the testing does any measurable damage to the tips.
Tips do change over time. I have been testing the tips of customers cues coming in for tip replacements.
I have found that almost all tips test in the 78 to 83 on the crown. But the sides show results closer to the original tip hardness.Often there is a 8 to 13 point difference.
This maybe why people like tips after the run in and why others like the way new tips play with a more consistent overall hardness.
I prefer the sharp point one, as the numbers from it are more consistent. The flat end one gives readings upto 99, which makes it a non value. 99 means the probe only penetrated the surface by .001 inch
The pointed one give readings like 60 to 80 something. The tip penetration is like .040 to .020 or so
Considering the tip picks that are on the market and other similar tools, I don't think the testing does any measurable damage to the tips.
Tips do change over time. I have been testing the tips of customers cues coming in for tip replacements.
I have found that almost all tips test in the 78 to 83 on the crown. But the sides show results closer to the original tip hardness.Often there is a 8 to 13 point difference.
This maybe why people like tips after the run in and why others like the way new tips play with a more consistent overall hardness.
That is very interesting, I did not know that. Thanks.
Although I don't know that weight would necessarily be an accurate gauge. A couple drops of oil or even water would make a tip heavier.
I would have guessed that they were using different skins to get to the different hardness grades.
Another reason why I don't want to get into tips. But the more I think about it the more I want to make a run at Tweeten market share rather than Moori's.
I have been weighing tips and then testing for hardness tonight.
The weights of the tips varied from 16.2 grains to 18.6 grains. The hardness variations were 68 to 70. There was no evidence to show the heavier tips were harder or the lighter tips were softer.These were 2 different brands of medium tips.
I tested 10 Hard tips. They were 73 to 75 on my durometer. The weight range of the sample was 16.8 to 18.8 grains. Again the lightest tip was not the softest and the heaviest was not the hardest.
I have not compared tip height differences in the samples.
I was expecting alot to see more of a weight shift than I did.The biggest surprise was seeing 2 different brand medium tips in the same weight and hardness range. One lot of medium tips was slightly closer in the weight range, 16.6grains to 17.4 grains,but with the same duro reading range, 68 to 70.
Neil
The weights of the tips varied from 16.2 grains to 18.6 grains. The hardness variations were 68 to 70. There was no evidence to show the heavier tips were harder or the lighter tips were softer.These were 2 different brands of medium tips.
I tested 10 Hard tips. They were 73 to 75 on my durometer. The weight range of the sample was 16.8 to 18.8 grains. Again the lightest tip was not the softest and the heaviest was not the hardest.
I have not compared tip height differences in the samples.
I was expecting alot to see more of a weight shift than I did.The biggest surprise was seeing 2 different brand medium tips in the same weight and hardness range. One lot of medium tips was slightly closer in the weight range, 16.6grains to 17.4 grains,but with the same duro reading range, 68 to 70.
Neil
TheThaiger
Banned
Do you think you can make a good quality tip for less than the 50 cents Triangles sell for? Tweeten's unit production cost must be virtually nothing to make money on those - hard to compete there, I'd say.
I reckon there's value in treated budget tips, however. Pimp 'em, tidy 'em, brand 'em and flog 'em.
John, if you get into making non layered tips, try to duplicate the old original French Champions... the best tip ever made. I can send you a few if you are interested.
Why wouldn't I be able to? Do you think that Tweeten has some magic method that is impossible to duplicate?
I imagine that they have the leather tanned a certain way at a certain thickness and they punch them out and dress them up and ship them out.
There are other brands of single layer tips on the market. And as previously mentioned I had a five layer tip that was well received. I didn't bother with grading them and when people asked I said try it. And they did and we didn't get a single complaint. On the contrary they wanted more.
So I'd settle for making something like that and eating into say 20% of Tweeten's market share. I am in the leather business so it's not outside the realm of possibility. After all Kamui tried to get into the case business so all's fair
Ok. I will take you up on that. But sometime in 2012. Still getting my ducks in a row with the case business. Thank you.
Very interesting.
the shore "a" durometer will not measure cue tips due to the fact that they are too dense or hard.
Shore "a" is for measuring things like rubber gaskets or o-rings.
Before you measure anything with any durometer you need to calibrate it with a material of known hardness or a calibration standard or you have no idea if you are getting a correct reading.
SLIM
the shore "a" durometer will not measure cue tips due to the fact that they are too dense or hard.
Shore "a" is for measuring things like rubber gaskets or o-rings.
Before you measure anything with any durometer you need to calibrate it with a material of known hardness or a calibration standard or you have no idea if you are getting a correct reading.
SLIM
Hi FLYINGSNAIL,
Where I could bye a durometer tool/machine ?
Thanks.
Lucas,
From Lucas Cue Shop
Szamboti durometer
One of the times I was visiting Barry Szamboti I noticed a small glass bowl (pudding dish) sitting a machine. It was filled with tips, Barry's reject pile.
Each tip had bite marks in it. Barry bites the tips between two molars, depending on his feel and the depth of the dents he either accepts or rejects the tip.
One of the times I was visiting Barry Szamboti I noticed a small glass bowl (pudding dish) sitting a machine. It was filled with tips, Barry's reject pile.
Each tip had bite marks in it. Barry bites the tips between two molars, depending on his feel and the depth of the dents he either accepts or rejects the tip.
So basically what you are saying is that every Szamboti cue is LITERALLY delivered with Szamboti DNA built in.
hey which tip is crisper the tiger laminated tip or the tiger everest
Laminated tips are better fried. One piece tips should be baked.
I've been doing the same since the late eighties. I haven't bought a box of tips since then so my rejects were selected out a long time ago.
I used them to experiment with making milk duds. Rejects are not dead....they are just waiting to be re-pressed IMHO. :wink:
I used them to experiment with making milk duds. Rejects are not dead....they are just waiting to be re-pressed IMHO. :wink:
i am sorry to be negative on this thread. but if you know me you know that i truly doubt what i know and know what i don't know, if that makes any sense... all in - i don't know much
when it comes to leather, even with the above being true, it would be fair to say that few folks on this site have had as much experience as i have with leather
i can say: tucker is a master, brilliant if you will
the rest of the peanut gallery here have no idea, for sure
with the exception of JB, no one has any knowledge of tips or of tip making. most importantly not even the tip makers themselves. you think that if a tip costs more it is better. or, if a tip is laminated it is better. so, if it costs more = it is better
sorry to tell you, you are all wrong who believe that
please think. if a cue maker thought that a $25.00 tip would enhance their custom cue wouldn't they make his/her cue better with one? why in the world would they not use it and use a triangle or le pro or elk master instead?
to save a few bucks? are you kidding me?
in the end all i can impart here is; enjoy your expensive tips while you 'believe' they are some sort of panacea for you game
i know for sure that is not the case
all the best,
smokey
when it comes to leather, even with the above being true, it would be fair to say that few folks on this site have had as much experience as i have with leather
i can say: tucker is a master, brilliant if you will
the rest of the peanut gallery here have no idea, for sure
with the exception of JB, no one has any knowledge of tips or of tip making. most importantly not even the tip makers themselves. you think that if a tip costs more it is better. or, if a tip is laminated it is better. so, if it costs more = it is better
sorry to tell you, you are all wrong who believe that
please think. if a cue maker thought that a $25.00 tip would enhance their custom cue wouldn't they make his/her cue better with one? why in the world would they not use it and use a triangle or le pro or elk master instead?
to save a few bucks? are you kidding me?
in the end all i can impart here is; enjoy your expensive tips while you 'believe' they are some sort of panacea for you game
i know for sure that is not the case
all the best,
smokey
I'm not sure if I am agreeing or disagreeing but I want to give you my perspective. Tips have changed dramatically over the 16 years I have been doing this. This is what I have learned;
1. I do not, for one second, believe that a tip that cost more is better.
2. Players and cue smiths often misuse the hardness rating.
3. A player must match a tip to his/her game.
4. Cue makers install cheaper tips on spec cues because of the vast selection of tips. No sense installing their favorite "$$$ tip" if the player wants to cut it off and play with something else.
5. Tips need to be consistent, from tip to tip, and throughout the life of the tip.
Most important; Pool is about consistency.