Where did the terms "pendulum stroke" and "piston stroke" originate?
Where did the terms "pendulum stroke" and "piston stroke" originate?
Where did the terms "pendulum stroke" and "piston stroke" originate?
Cue Tips with CJ WILEY - Drawing the Ball
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
The term pendulum stroke has been with us for a long time. Here is what Willie Hoppe had to say about it in his must-have book "Billiards As It Should Be Played":
The standard source for information about billiard terms is Mike Shamos's "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards". He has three other references for "pendulum swing" -- Broadfoot, Daly and Martin.
All five of those books belong in the billiard library of anyone who wants to start being a student of cue sports and certainly in the library of anyone who imagines he wants to teach the game.
As for the term "piston stroke", that is more recent. The earliest use I could find in discussion groups was in 1995. See the video illustrating the difference between the two on Dr. Dave's site or look at this article: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf
The term "piston" derives from the fact that in that kind of stroke the cue stick moves along its own axis without the rotation of that axis as in the pendulum stroke. This is like the perfectly linear motion of a piston in a cylinder.
While "piston" seems to be a relatively new term, the actual action has been around a long time. Joe Davis's very careful description of his own mechanics leave no doubt that his cue action was like a piston. That would put the use of the action if not the word back at least 80 or 90 years. Currently there are lots of very good snooker players who use a piston stroke.
H-mmm... That's not what Hoppe recommends in this old newsreel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4iaJWu8Ak&feature=related
At 2:55 the commentator says, "...The stroke should be regular and rhythmic, the swing coming from the shoulder, not from the elbow..."
His stroke looks more like Keith McCready's... with a snap twist of the wrist for extra power.
I never get tired of watching what the old master could do with that cue ball. I've actually tried to emulate his stroke and have had pretty good results with it, but it is nothing I would stick with for pocket billiards. You need a more upright stance like a 3-cushion player uses IMO, but it sure worked for Hoppe.
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In his book he says, in effect, don't do as I do, do as I say and Charlie Peterson is a good example. Nearly all current 3-C masters use vertical (if not pendulum) strokes. Zanetti is the most notable exception.
I'm NOT an intsructor.
But...last night, on You Tube, I watched the 2011 14-1 match between Mike Siegel & Jose Parika. Both have elbow drops & Siegel's looks 'extreme'.
I, for one, favor sending the cue stick straight through the cue ball & not with a 'falling' or 'rising' of the tip. It is the stick that moves similiar to a cylinder encased piston. The piston 'rod' or 'arm' does not move in a straight line, but where it connects to the piston (the gudgeon 'wrist' pin) does move in a 'straight' line along with the piston.
IMHO,I do not think that it is that complicated to perform. We have shoulders, elbows & wrists for purposes. I know pool is not that purpose but it is not that difficult an adaptation. We have the bio- mechanics cabibilties to 'easily' deliver the cue stick in a piston like fashion.
I trust my mind to command my bio-mechanics to do what is needed for the best outcome as percieved by my mind. My eyes give my mind the information of the situation & my minds eye gets the picture, analyzes the info, & then puts me into the best positon & uses the best bio-mechanics to provide the best outcome. I was not taught to play the way I play, at least not by any human being. The game 'requirements' were assessed by my mind & body & they came up with IMHO an appropriate solution & method.
So...in essence, The Game Is The Teacher!
With Sincerity,
Rick
PS Remember, I am NOT an instructor. But, I would think that a good stroke is a hybrid. A 'pendulum' like backstroke with no upper arm movement on the back or the foward stroke till just before contact, then a piston like delivery to & through the cue ball should take over.
That transition from one to the other should occur just prior to tip contact with the cue ball as the tip should go through the cue ball in a straight line similiar to a pistion movement with no change in elevation. Just my humble opinion & I am NOT an instructor, but I have played very well for 46 years.
PSS No ill intentions meant. That is simply my opinion.
But...last night, on You Tube, I watched the 2011 14-1 match between Mike Siegel & Jose Parika. Both have elbow drops & Siegel's looks 'extreme'.
I, for one, favor sending the cue stick straight through the cue ball & not with a 'falling' or 'rising' of the tip. It is the stick that moves similiar to a cylinder encased piston. The piston 'rod' or 'arm' does not move in a straight line, but where it connects to the piston (the gudgeon 'wrist' pin) does move in a 'straight' line along with the piston.
IMHO,I do not think that it is that complicated to perform. We have shoulders, elbows & wrists for purposes. I know pool is not that purpose but it is not that difficult an adaptation. We have the bio- mechanics cabibilties to 'easily' deliver the cue stick in a piston like fashion.
I trust my mind to command my bio-mechanics to do what is needed for the best outcome as percieved by my mind. My eyes give my mind the information of the situation & my minds eye gets the picture, analyzes the info, & then puts me into the best positon & uses the best bio-mechanics to provide the best outcome. I was not taught to play the way I play, at least not by any human being. The game 'requirements' were assessed by my mind & body & they came up with IMHO an appropriate solution & method.
So...in essence, The Game Is The Teacher!
With Sincerity,
Rick
PS Remember, I am NOT an instructor. But, I would think that a good stroke is a hybrid. A 'pendulum' like backstroke with no upper arm movement on the back or the foward stroke till just before contact, then a piston like delivery to & through the cue ball should take over.
That transition from one to the other should occur just prior to tip contact with the cue ball as the tip should go through the cue ball in a straight line similiar to a pistion movement with no change in elevation. Just my humble opinion & I am NOT an instructor, but I have played very well for 46 years.
PSS No ill intentions meant. That is simply my opinion.
If you are using a pendulum stroke, and drop your shoulder just before contact, you will NOT be hitting with a level cue. There is no way you can be! A pendulum stroke hits the cb with a level stroke at contact. So, any change you do just before that will alter you being level. If you want to drop your elbow, you better do it a ways before contact, not just before.
A quick test, look at your chalk mark on the cb and see if you actually are hitting where you think you are. A training cb is best for it because it shows the chalk marks, and you can easily pick an exact spot to try and hit.
Yes, yes and amen. Sure.
A good player can produce something almost exactly like a pendulum and with a very slight amount of "straight" near the bottom of the arc.
I am emphasizing that the average and even the strong player can get way to "in their head" for a pendulum. We can use ulnar or radial deviation in our wrist consciously or unconsciously and now we have more then two hinges in play...
Neil,
Good afternoon.
I don't believe I said anything about dropping the shoulder.
I also don't believe I said anything about wanting to drop my elbow.
I also don't believe I said that I always set up in the prefered starting position for a pendulum stroke.
I merely said what path I would prefer the stick/tip to follow into & through the cue ball.
I personally would rather thrust my mind & body than a prescribed system. That is just me. If a more piston like stroke is good enough for some of the greats of the game, it is certainly good enough for me, especially since I came upon it naturally.
My explanation of my perceived hybrid stroke was not meant to be a slow motion mental video stop action 'just before' vs 'way before'. Those are relative terms that can be percieved differently by different people when they are moving an instrument like a golf club, baseball bat, or pool cue.
I am confused about this though. I thought another prominent instructor that advocates the pendulum stroke said that it is only 'okay' to drop the elbow after contact not before.
Neil, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying clarify a few points so we both can discuss our opinions intelligently, to the best of our ability.
Sincerely,
Rick
Please re-read what I replied to, and then re-read my reply. As far as "the other instructor, re-read about what can easily happen when you drop your elbow (which requires you dropping your shoulder, the shoulder is what allows you to drop your elbow. ).
Please see the bolded part above. IMHO I would suggest the underlined portion & I would say more than a 'slight' amount of straight to & through the ball.
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Neil,
Okay... I've re-read them.
Are you suggesting that one's upper arm can not pivot in the shoulder socket & drop, which would lower the elbow, without the shoulder also dropping?
Phrased another way, & this is a question, you're saying that the upper arm can not move across the rib cage without the shoulder also moving along with it?
Again, just trying to clarify.
Rick
I'm not interested in playing word games with you. If you can't understand the concept, go ask Fran or someone. I knew it was a mistake to start posting again.
Don't leave Neil
Don't leave Neil, I need someone to "share in the suffering" of playing word games about pool techniques :woot::help:
I'm not interested in playing word games with you. If you can't understand the concept, go ask Fran or someone. I knew it was a mistake to start posting again.
Don't leave Neil, I need someone to "share in the suffering" of playing word games about pool techniques :woot::help:
What you describe here is sometimes called a "J" stroke, although some would define that as pendulum all the way to contact, then a straight extension on the follow through.
Here's something I wrote a few years ago.
P stroke (pendulum) ............ the other P stroke (piston)............ J stroke (pendulum with elbow drop follow-through) ............ etc.
Maybe all of these are suboptimal. In golf, it used to be typical that the putting stroke involved a lot of hand and wrist action. In more recent decades, many top pros have tried to minimize the use of the hands and wrists by using more of a full-arm motion from the shoulders. The theory is that the large muscles can do the job better than the small muscles.
What would the equivalent of that be in pool? A pendulum stroke from the shoulder rather than from the elbow! An elbow rise followed by an elbow drop. Maybe Mike Davis is the only guy doing it optimally! Let's call it the PS stroke -- pendulum from the shoulder -- because it's sort of an after-thought.
I say this with my tongue only half way in my cheek. I've experimented with a PS stroke on some shots for some time, and it works well! I wish some of the technical and stroke experts would analyze it and experiment with it. Maybe the future is a PS!
Maybe all of these are suboptimal. In golf, it used to be typical that the putting stroke involved a lot of hand and wrist action. In more recent decades, many top pros have tried to minimize the use of the hands and wrists by using more of a full-arm motion from the shoulders. The theory is that the large muscles can do the job better than the small muscles.
What would the equivalent of that be in pool? A pendulum stroke from the shoulder rather than from the elbow! An elbow rise followed by an elbow drop. Maybe Mike Davis is the only guy doing it optimally! Let's call it the PS stroke -- pendulum from the shoulder -- because it's sort of an after-thought.
I say this with my tongue only half way in my cheek. I've experimented with a PS stroke on some shots for some time, and it works well! I wish some of the technical and stroke experts would analyze it and experiment with it. Maybe the future is a PS!
mostly bar players think that.
The problem with raising the elbow during the backswing is you have the tendency to hit a little higher than you want to or you have the tendency to drop the elbow prematurely. It collides with the snooker theory "try to keep the cue level" during all the stroke. During long backswing I drop the elbow and then when I'm going to hit the ball I raise it in the "natural" position, then I drop the elbow after contacting the cb. With this technique you have the tendency to hit the cb a little lower so you have to work on it to make it work properly.
Thanks so much.
A J lying on the long 'straight' side. Maybe the 'Double PP Hybrid'. Whatever 'we' call it, it works & so many of the past Champions have used it even if some have said 'do what I say & not what I do' because they either thought a novice could not do it or they just did not know quite how to explain to execute it so they gave the part of it that they could. Or they thought that it was their secret. Ben Hogan never gave away his secret in any of his public instructional pieces. He only told it to a select few.
Another golf analogy is a difference in striking a golf ball. Many 'hit' the golf ball & many swing through the golf ball. I know the 'pendulum' argument that it allows for a follow through. Well in the golf 'hit' & the golf swing, both have a follow through as well. I also know the argument that the ball is gone in x time.
What some seem to not understand is that if the delivery IS different so is the affect.
Thanks again for the intelligant, insightful, information.
Respectfully & with Best Regards,
Rick
WOW ....THANK YOU
i have had my stoke video analyzed
and thats what i do(at least on last analysis) except that my elbow doesnt drop until AFTER contact
at least i have a name for my stroke
hope its not "suboptimal tho"....:grin:
I place a lot more emphasis on the hand position
I place a lot more emphasis on the hand position and what it's doing throughout the stroke. What I try to do is just bring my right hand back, hesitate, and accelerate quickly forward exactly where it started, extending my tip through the ball. I hesitate so there's no energy used to redirect the cue into the forward motion. If you do not hesitate I believe you will have more trouble duplicating a consistent speed and when you really have to stroke a long draw it's a tendency to "jump at it" or draw it back to quickly and then REALLY have to redirect it. In the process of doing all those things you will lose valuable power and accuracy. imho
I place a lot more emphasis on the hand position and what it's doing throughout the stroke. What I try to do is just bring my right hand back, hesitate, and accelerate quickly forward exactly where it started, extending my tip through the ball. I hesitate so there's no energy used to redirect the cue into the forward motion. If you do not hesitate I believe you will have more trouble duplicating a consistent speed and when you really have to stroke a long draw it's a tendency to "jump at it" or draw it back to quickly and then REALLY have to redirect it. In the process of doing all those things you will lose valuable power and accuracy. imho