Custom Butt Measurements?

beav99_4life

BPT Champion
Silver Member
I have a Falcon SP with a predator shaft on it. I dont know why, but it is the best hitting and most comfortable cue i've ever shot with. Many have agreed. I've had more than a few pros shoot with it and say "Wow!" because of how good it feels, even offers to buy it. I was letting Dee Adkins shoot with it last week and finally realized the reason it feels so good, atleast to Dee and myself, is that the butt is smaller in diameter compared to other cues. I was wondering if its more of a pain for cue makers to make butts to certain measurements or not? Thanks for any responses.
 
No problem. It's probably not that much smaller in diameter at all, but our hands are very sensitive. I too, have found that a cue with a smaller diameter butt seems to be more accurate for me, and I feel the same of 12.75mm shafts as opposed to 13mm. Of course, the feel of the hit is different, but they just seem to be more accurate to me. If you have the opportunity, shoot for an hour with a vintage Hoppe Pro at 1.375, or any other thicker cue, then switch back to your own, which is probably in the neighborhood of 1.250, and you'll feel the difference instantly. Experimentation is a good thing.
Mr H
 
Smaller handles for me too.

It is amazing how even a very small difference in diameter between cues that your hands will be able to detect. For me the pretty standard size butt caps at 1.250 few too big for me. I have a number of cues that were made to the butt cap size of 1.18 which is the size that suites me best.

Kevin
 
smaller butts????

If a custom cue maker balks at building a smaller diameter butt to your dimensions then he/she is no custom builder. I would be happy to discuss this further with you. You are welcome to visit my website:
http://www.triplecrosscues.com
There are several cues available that may meet you liking.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
TripXQ said:
If a custom cue maker balks at building a smaller diameter butt to your dimensions then he/she is no custom builder. I would be happy to discuss this further with you. You are welcome to visit my website:
http://www.triplecrosscues.com
There are several cues available that may meet you liking.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:

Hi Tom; we've talked about this subject before. I too consider myself a CUSTOM CUEMAKER & have for 22 years. The customer can choose the woods, inlays, points, vaneers, ferrule material & tips. BUT I feel that ALL of my BLACK HEART CUES should feel, play & hit like every other cue that I make. Therefore the balance point, cue diameter, butt taper, shaft taper & joint of ALL of my cues, are the same. If someone picks up one of your cues that you have made & it has a butt diameter of 1", then he probably walks away thinking, that you make ALL of your cues that way. A car builder that builds one of a kind custom cars,is no less a CUSTOM builder if he refuses to put a Volkswagan engine in a Cadilac body...JER
 
"Custom" means different things to different people.
Someone who won't deviate on basic specs should probably be called "custom production". No real distinctions are ever made though, but they do get argued over pretty regularly. :D
 
beav99_4life said:
I was wondering if its more of a pain for cue makers to make butts to certain measurements or not? Thanks for any responses.
On the CuesNThings web site, the Bob Frey Cues page lists an option "Special Taper to Butt or Shaft".

By the responses, it looks like it's up to the cuemaker if they choose to offer that type of option or not.

Also, for those cuemakers who have responded here, what measurements would be needed to duplicate a particular butt taper?
 
i always have been a fan of a stream lined cue. 12.75mm tip .835" at the joint and 1.250" in the butt

however

my new player has changed my mind. ive changed my specs to match this cue exactly.59'' 13mm long taper. .855 in the joint and 1.275'' i know it seems thick but i like my results better. very old school feel. the cues feel really solid
 
Sheldon said:
"Custom" means different things to different people.
Someone who won't deviate on basic specs should probably be called "custom production". No real distinctions are ever made though, but they do get argued over pretty regularly. :D

The worms are getting restless in the can again.

Couldn't the word 'production' mean different things to different people?

I've pondered your use of the word 'production' as it would apply to a CM and one immediately congers visions of McD., Viking & etc. However, I think the definition could also encompass any builder that builds the same way repeatedly, regardless of the number of cues being built in a given period of time, say a year. Then there's the consideration of, is the builder building one cue or six at a time? The worms must be hungry, should we feed them?

I don't like the use of the word 'custom' in reference to my cues because basically, I reserve the right of refusal. This excludes me from being a custom builder and I'm just fine with that. At the end of the day, it's my name that's on the cue and it will be built by methods, and to dimensions that I've come to believe are best for my cues. I also reserve the right to make changes at my discretion without apology.

After a period of time a builder will zero-in on certain specs, etc. that define his or her cues. Hit is important to me. My formula used to secure that 'hit' is consistent. Obviously I'm in the camp that would be as happy as a clam in sand if all my cues hit exactly the same. Given the nature of wood though, that will never be possible.

There are at least 1,000 CMs in this country alone that will build for you just about anything you want, complete with your dimensions. Finding one should not be a problem. Me,........I'm a production builder.

PS. Isn't 'custom production' an oxy-moron?
 
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i change mine around slightly to match the wood.i guess the butt is basically the same on my cues but i will vary joint size,a-joint size and actual handle size according to the strength or density of the wood.in other words if you like a cue to be .850 for Maple why would you want .850 for Ebony,there is no need for that much mass.

of course as KJ said wood is a difficult thing to measure and is sometimes deceiving,but usually it is fairly constant.i will do custom specs for certain clients but i will not deviate much from my "standard" even then.to me custom does not mean giving the customer what he wants,but just something that is made by me,by hand(and machine) one at a time basically.

Also, for those cuemakers who have responded here, what measurements would be needed to duplicate a particular butt taper?


you should get joint,a-joint,just below handle and the butt cap.with those 4 measurements most cuemakers will be able to figure out the taper.
 
KJ Cues said:
Couldn't the word 'production' mean different things to different people?
PS. Isn't 'custom production' an oxy-moron?
Again, it depends on your definitions. Which as I mentioned, can and DO vary. :smile:
How about "Limited Production, Semi-Customizable Cuemaker"?
We are all limited at some point by our equipment too. Some more than others, some by space and monetary factors, and some by choice.
 
custom

My statement about someone not willing to build to the customer's specs has offended some. I apologize for the offense but (respectfully) I believe the customer needs to experiment with sizes, tapers, materials, and such before they can define precisely what works for them. No two players have the same sensitivity in their fingers. Nor do they classify cues in the same way.

In my opinion we as cue builders need to be accepting of customers with different opinions of what they need. If we see problem areas in their thinking (because of our experiences) we need to discuss it with them and after given a chance to think about it go with their decision. We are building for them not ourselves at this point. We can always refuse if we desire to.

We also have the ability to construct cues not with a specific customer in mind. These cues can be built to our own pre-decided dimensions and with our chosen materials. They can be cookie cutter cues with as identical dimensions and "HIT" as we can construct. Then customers that try one and like it can purchase it on the spot or if its under construction have it personalized for them.

Again I'm not trying to offend with my opinion. Just letting the public understand that I am willing to listen to their ideas. Maybe the resulting discussions will define their "Holy Grail" cue. I respect the cue builders that have responded and wish them well in their efforts to succeed.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
TripXQ said:
If a custom cue maker balks at building a smaller diameter butt to your dimensions then he/she is no custom builder.

Maybe you could have said ;
"If a custom cue maker balks at building a smaller diameter butt to your dimensions, then you should look for another maker who will". Instead, it sounds like you are casting doubt, on his ABILITY to perform the job. Tom, I respect you & admire your work & hope that we ALL (including me), reread our posts, in hopes that we keep the peace in CUEVILLE. :) :) :) I LOVE CUEMAKERS (CUE ARTISTS)...JER
 
beav99_4life said:
I have a Falcon SP with a predator shaft on it. I dont know why, but it is the best hitting and most comfortable cue i've ever shot with. Many have agreed. I've had more than a few pros shoot with it and say "Wow!" because of how good it feels, even offers to buy it. I was letting Dee Adkins shoot with it last week and finally realized the reason it feels so good, atleast to Dee and myself, is that the butt is smaller in diameter compared to other cues. I was wondering if its more of a pain for cue makers to make butts to certain measurements or not? Thanks for any responses.
I'm going out on a limb and say the cue feels great because it happens to have very good woods and construction was tight.
Falcon's single-angle thin taper is very common.
Personally, I like to have a fat forearm and you can have a skinny handle if you like.
 
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JER,
I am sorry you took my statements in a fashion they weren't intended for. I respect your efforts as a quality cue maker, also. Maybe your changed statement applies better. One point I like to make to customers is that, to me, one is custom and two or more is production. Building to one set of dimensions with the same sets of "structural" materials can produce quite similar "hits". That's a given. It's also a way to speed up the building process since with one setup cookie cutter pieces can be churned out. This makes sense from an efficient business perspective. Then practiced jointing with appropriate glueing techniques,some distinct inlays with preset CNC cutting, prep sanding and clearing. Your experimenting to get your hit gives the customer your cue.

We need to be able to discuss our ideas in a civilized fashion, as we have, and I take your statements to heart (Black-Heart, that is). I still feel that we should listen deeply to the customer's thoughts, because we never know where the next great step may come in building a better cue. We need to be able to discuss the customers ideas and debate the merits with them. After this debate, we always have the right to go our separate ways. I have no problem sending customers to you, who may benefit from a Black-Heart cue. My hope is that you would feel the same way towards me.

My best wishes to you.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues
 
There are clearly two distinct types of custom builders. I am one type, who has strict guidlines I follow in terms of dimensions & materials. Then there's the "true custom" type who let customers dictate everything. I'd like to hear from the "true custom" builders & hear their reasoning, justification behind their choices. Was it business or ethic motivated? I see this conversation come up a few times per year & it never gets past the petty label name calling game. I'd like to hear some honest, non-advertising comments & discussion from both sides. As of now it's "my dad can beat your dad up" kind of endings in these discussions.

I'll go first. I am strict about material choices because some materials are better suited for cues than others. There are some beautiful materials that simply are useless in a cue unless inlayed, which I don't do because of personal preference. Some day i'll inlay, but for now there are numerous other structurally important aspects of cues that I need to master before I begin dressing them up. Otherwise i'd feel like I was polishing a turd. So my material choices are made for structural integrity & playability purposes. So in essence, if somebody wants inlays, i'll either sub-contract with their permission or they won't get inlays. I have done inlays using a friend's machine, but was not ready for the attention to detail it takes to make the inlays perfect by my standards. I could do it no problem, but feel there are other more important areas of the cue to master first. Basically, I want to build a good cue before I begin building ornamented cues. This brings me to the reason I am strict on dimensions.

I can play. I know the game & have used many, many cues, as well as built many cues. I experiment constantly with dimensions. It took me roughly three years to lock down the shaft taper I currently use. I factored in comfort, stiffness, deflection, spin, etc. when formulating & reformulating the dimensions. This all includes ferrule material & ferrule installation technique, including the adhesive used. What I locked down on works very well for playing. It spins easily, feels comfortable to stroke, has a solid feel, low deflection & is simply easy to pockert balls with. It's great, but is only half of the cue. The shafts didn't play the same on every butt. So I had to work a few more years on perfecting the butt. Wood combos used, dimensions, taper shape, collar materials, construction techniques, adhesives, etc. all factor in. I ended up making my own joint pins & found an ass backwards way of putting my cues together in order to achive consistency in quality. I'm still to this day experimenting & trying new ways & materials, and little by little evolving my cues. But the point is, I knbow what works & I know what i'll put my name on. If somebody wants one of my cues, it'll fit within my guidlines & they can customize the details I allow them to. I won't build anything else, because if I did i'd be afraid to claim it without adequate testing & proof over a period of time I felt worthy.

For me & the way I view things, I cannot allow myself to bend the rules I have made for my cues. To do so would be to strip the personality & identity I have created for my cues. They would no longer be Sugartrees, but instead the material mass of somebody else's imagination. That's just my thoughts & the way I do my thing. The only stone it's set into is the pebble tumbling around in my skull that I like to refer to as my brain.

So there's my reasoning for my choice of path. Let's hear some others'. No advertising pitch, just personal thoughts & reasoning behind choices made concerning the word "custom".
 
qbilder said:
There are clearly two distinct types of custom builders. I am one type, who has strict guidlines I follow in terms of dimensions & materials. Then there's the "true custom" type who let customers dictate everything. I'd like to hear from the "true custom" builders & hear their reasoning, justification behind their choices. Was it business or ethic motivated? I see this conversation come up a few times per year & it never gets past the petty label name calling game. I'd like to hear some honest, non-advertising comments & discussion from both sides. As of now it's "my dad can beat your dad up" kind of endings in these discussions.

I'll go first. I am strict about material choices because some materials are better suited for cues than others. There are some beautiful materials that simply are useless in a cue unless inlayed, which I don't do because of personal preference. Some day i'll inlay, but for now there are numerous other structurally important aspects of cues that I need to master before I begin dressing them up. Otherwise i'd feel like I was polishing a turd. So my material choices are made for structural integrity & playability purposes. So in essence, if somebody wants inlays, i'll either sub-contract with their permission or they won't get inlays. I have done inlays using a friend's machine, but was not ready for the attention to detail it takes to make the inlays perfect by my standards. I could do it no problem, but feel there are other more important areas of the cue to master first. Basically, I want to build a good cue before I begin building ornamented cues. This brings me to the reason I am strict on dimensions.

I can play. I know the game & have used many, many cues, as well as built many cues. I experiment constantly with dimensions. It took me roughly three years to lock down the shaft taper I currently use. I factored in comfort, stiffness, deflection, spin, etc. when formulating & reformulating the dimensions. This all includes ferrule material & ferrule installation technique, including the adhesive used. What I locked down on works very well for playing. It spins easily, feels comfortable to stroke, has a solid feel, low deflection & is simply easy to pockert balls with. It's great, but is only half of the cue. The shafts didn't play the same on every butt. So I had to work a few more years on perfecting the butt. Wood combos used, dimensions, taper shape, collar materials, construction techniques, adhesives, etc. all factor in. I ended up making my own joint pins & found an ass backwards way of putting my cues together in order to achive consistency in quality. I'm still to this day experimenting & trying new ways & materials, and little by little evolving my cues. But the point is, I knbow what works & I know what i'll put my name on. If somebody wants one of my cues, it'll fit within my guidlines & they can customize the details I allow them to. I won't build anything else, because if I did i'd be afraid to claim it without adequate testing & proof over a period of time I felt worthy.

For me & the way I view things, I cannot allow myself to bend the rules I have made for my cues. To do so would be to strip the personality & identity I have created for my cues. They would no longer be Sugartrees, but instead the material mass of somebody else's imagination. That's just my thoughts & the way I do my thing. The only stone it's set into is the pebble tumbling around in my skull that I like to refer to as my brain.

So there's my reasoning for my choice of path. Let's hear some others'. No advertising pitch, just personal thoughts & reasoning behind choices made concerning the word "custom".


Hi Eric, I think a lot of people probably wouldn't want your cues in any other way :)

I alway thought the wood "Custom" in cue refer to the ability of the cue maker to be able to put together a cue with his or his clients selection of the best material available. Whether he build it to his client spec down to the taper etc or he stick with his personal magic formula...both are custom cue. Custom is probably more reserved for the estectic and design of a cue than a builder's magic formula. When a cue builder is established, I would think he would have already perfected a good understanding of his own taper and balance of his cue over the year...I would also think he has a clear understand of the hit of his cue and how a multiple components will have an impact on how his cues will play. I'm sure the builder will also have some sort of standard behind his cue before it even get to the client hand and for sure know he should know how the cue he build will play. Whether it's a conversion or whatever he's building...a custom cue will also exihibit the quality in both functional and estectic that is expect from a custom cue builder. Whether is eddie wheat with custom height measurement of the player or a builder who has a standard forumala for every single custom cue he build...it's all "custom" to me.

Regards,
Duc
 
Not completely off-topic...

I've been thinking for a while about having a custom cue built for me.

Alot of my thought lately has been on a desired butt diameter.

PROBLEM: I recently purchased an older ('89 or so) Viking to replace my 2002 Lucasi (cocked A joint). The Viking is dimensionally larger (and lighter in weight) yet "feels" smaller in my hand.

This could be due more to the balance point or the heft of the cue, but I am now wondering if the measured butt dimensions are as critical as I once thought.
 
Hi there qbilder,
I like to think of my efforts as your second classification "true custom" building. I believe we can both live in pool without being embarassed with our choice of direction. I agree with your choice of direction, for you. My situation is that I enjoy discussions with customers that have "special" needs.

They fall into two very distinct classifications. They are both "handicapped" in some fashion. The first group have true physical handicaps that dictate special needs in their equipment. The challenge of building a high quality playing cue for one of these players can be stressful at times, but the reward is seen in the eyes of the player after they realize what they have been missing with traditional cue dimensions.

A 36 inch shaft for the wheelchair player balanced forward on a smaller diameter butt for control that allows them to run several balls rather than one at a time brings a lot of pride to the builder. A 62 inch cue for the 6'8" tall perrenial skill level 5 player that helps him achieve a skill level of 7 in two months is a big kick in the pants for me. Many very short players benefit from extra length also. Traditional cues built to standard dimensions have changed over time. Hoppe big butts at 55 inches while still collected have been replaced with 57, 58, and now 59 inch lengths over the recent past.

The second group of handicapped players are those who, like you and I, want to do the experimenting with the aid of an experienced player/builder (you or me). You build one type of cue and say take it or leave it. That's fine. I like to say let's discuss ideas and come up with a design that complements the players "special" needs. My goal is to improve the player's game. If we can come to an agreement the cue is built. If we disagree too much on the final design we can always part ways.

Building a cue to other than traditional dimensions using different materials can be quite challenging and may not be for everyone. It can be much more time consuming but when finished properly it can provide a type of pride that is not achieved with building only to one dimension set.

With our experiences, you and I are both trying to achieve similar outcomes, in different ways. Neither way is necessarily best. There are plenty of customers out there. I have no problem sending a customer to you if I feel they will benefit from your product. I can only hope you would do the same for me.

Best of health and good cue building.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues
 
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