what do think of syano finish,super glue. does it hold up, or is it to brittle.
cyano finish
- Thread starter danny turner
- Start date
IMHO, it's not the best finish you can use and I'm being cordial.
It has a higher gloss than UV so it's not well suited for patch-repair there. The upside is that if the cue's finish is cyano, you can patch with cyano.
It has it's place in cue building but not as a finish, again, MHO.
It works well for installing tips and sealing linen-based ferrules.
That's about it.
It has a higher gloss than UV so it's not well suited for patch-repair there. The upside is that if the cue's finish is cyano, you can patch with cyano.
It has it's place in cue building but not as a finish, again, MHO.
It works well for installing tips and sealing linen-based ferrules.
That's about it.
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If you must use it, I suggest at least two coats of epoxy first.
I do not use on cue any longer , but my shooter is 3-4 yrs old and the finish is perfect. And it was straight super glue , no sealer . probably 20 to 25 coats tho. Jim
That is surprising to me Jim.
CA flashes way before it penetrates wood.
24-hr epoxy ( they are really more like 48-72 HR epoxy ) takes days to harden up after settling on wood.
I have one now that is so hard, you really have to hammer a good mix in a plastic cup to break it.
I used sg med, and put on about 5 coats and sanded till no shinny spots, and then 5 more same thing 4 to 5 times and then worked down gradually to 2000 then maquires polishing compound . The cue is a Schmelke coco and birds-eye, and finish is beautiful, still .
Eric Wynne
Banned
I've done many cues with it , and if done properly it's a good finish . To me it's more clear than automotive , doesn't cover any imperfections . The right technique and set up with really good ventilation it's not difficult . I use a water base sealer ... Yes many CA coats are required . I build mine up with as many as 10 or so coats before wet sanding . Around 15 or 20 coats it's thick enough to buff out . I only do CA when the customer must have it next day or so , and I make them pay ....
I use cyno on many cues, I use a couple of coats of sealer then I light sand. If you are using a quality cyno it is a good finish. I use several coats of thin ,15 to 20 then 3 or 4 coats of a medium. Then sand, using grit up to 2000 and buff. You better have a flawless sand job it will show up any imperfections. MHO.
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As a finish I have also found that It works better over a epoxy seal cote, and the quality of the CA really does make a huge difference. Cheap Ca's are usually more of a pain to work with, and in the end are more brittle then a better quality cyno. The gel doesn't go on as smooth, but can help build the thickness faster, then a thin Ca can be used over the top to help fill in the imperfections & voids, and make sanding a little easier. There can be a little more to it depending on how well things turn out in between cotes, but I go in order of- epoxy cotes/sand/thin Ca/Gel/Thin Ca, then use thin Ca for the touch-ups, and in between lite sandings to finish off with. I have used loctite 454 for the gel, and loctite precision for the thin with some success.
For spot repair work, Believe It or not, in custom cues CA has been used a lot more them some people may realize, so obviously Cyno blends well with those when patching the finish, It also blends well with most auto finishes That I have worked on, But Like KJ mentioned some UV or epoxy type finishes are harder to buff, and even after a successful Buffing, the area of the CA patch may stand out, as They do not buff & polish out at the same rate, and the CA Is more shiny & clear in glossiness.
Greg
For spot repair work, Believe It or not, in custom cues CA has been used a lot more them some people may realize, so obviously Cyno blends well with those when patching the finish, It also blends well with most auto finishes That I have worked on, But Like KJ mentioned some UV or epoxy type finishes are harder to buff, and even after a successful Buffing, the area of the CA patch may stand out, as They do not buff & polish out at the same rate, and the CA Is more shiny & clear in glossiness.
Greg
IMOP CA by itself is only "good" because its cheap, fast turnover and no equipment really needed like spray booths and such.
CA is noxious so make sure you have good ventilation.
You also need the right sandpaper grits or better yet high enough grits. CA needs either polishing up to 12,000 MICRO GRIT or you can go to 2000 and then use polishing/buffing compounds.
When sanding the CA spin the lathe and make a pass then turn it off and use the same grit traveling LENGTHWAYS up and down the shaft in smooth even passes. When spinning the sandpaper will leave ring scratches around the circumference of the cue, when you stop it and sand lengthways it removes the circular scratches and will leave the finish "scratches" running with the grain of the wood.
If you don't go through the proper grits in this fashion your going to have swirls and fine scratches in the finish and that really shows up when the cue is polished out.
WATER IS A NO NO!!!!!! KEEP WATER OF ANY KIND AWAY FROM WHERE YOUR WORKING...........don't breath on the CA, don't touch the CA with your bare fingers..........WATER MAKES CA TURN FROST WHITE!
As for the statment that CA flashes b/f it penetrates the wood, thats variable from type to type and brand to brand. YOU CAN FIX THIS PROBLEM VERY SIMPLE..........and the technique fixes another innate problem with CA, its BRITTLENESS.
The best CA would have a somewhat controlled drying time as to get maximum wood penetration and be somewhat flexible so as not to bubble when hit....the bubbling when it gets hit is for two reasons
A) either they didn't use a sealer and the CA dried b/f it penetrated the wood
B) its too brittle/hard
Now here's the fix:
You can adjust the drying time of CA very simply. All it takes is OIL. Olive Oil, Corn Oil, Baby Oil, Vegetable Oil, Danish Oil.
The yellow oils such as Corn/vegetable/olive even help to add that little tint of honey that you find in old growth maple..........if you don't want any tinting of the finish then use a Baby Oil/Mineral Oil as its clear.
I cover the bottle of oil with a cloth and turn it over so as to get a nice silver dollar sized oil pad on my cloth. Then with the lathe spinning I add a layer of the oil, IMMIDEATELY after I grab my THIN CA and again with the lathe spinning I keep my cloth on the wood and drip the CA onto the workpiece right on top my cloth going up and down the workpiece for a min or so untill the cloth is stiff from the CA drying, and the finish is "SET"
The finish is already very very smooth so only if necessary i hit it with a light grit steel wool. DO NOT DO THIS IF THE FINISH ISN'T DRY YET, you will strip it all off if you do........as the oil makes the CA's drying time increase drastically.
If my coat is smooth I'll forgo the steel wool and grab another cloth put the oil on it and repeat the same exact process i described above.
You can use thin, you can use thick CA with this method.......it doesn't make a diff since the drying time is lengthened so that you have plenty of time to smooth it out without your cloth instead of sanding.
Depending on if you use a Thin or a Thick you could need anywhere from around 7 to 20 coats to complete the process.
After its done and you have it thick enough to work with let it sit for quite a few hours b/f sanding as to be certain that the finish has dried fully.
Sand & Polish the finish like i have described.
These finishes have more "depth" than auto clears/epoxies/UV this is b/c of the OIL........
Another thing to know is that the OIL is going to fill in any small scratches and such on the top layer before your next layer is applied. This is another reason that I really don't sand b/t coats since A) Its already smooth/even. B) There are no scratches.
Also sanding can leave little white spots in the low areas that can easily be missed and those will show up if you don't watch your surface cleanliness....the spots are just DUST sitting in the tiny low spot or scratch.......if you sand or use whatever then hit it with a piece of TACK CLOTH to remove the bad dust and debris from the workpiece.
After its clean then start with your oil on the cloth again and make a pass. INSPECT IT and check for particles in the oil coat on the workpiece....anything will show up very well as the oil makes the surface glossy so trespassing particles will be easy to see and remove before continuing with the process.
DONT USE ACCELERATOR IT WILL DEFEAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS METHOD AND MAKES CA AN EVEN WORSE PRODUCT OVERALL FOR USE ON A CUES FINISH IMOP
Overall the method i described above does take longer than "normal" application methods but its just WAIT TIME as opposed to Work time
There is one great benefit that helps the method is that IF PROPERLY DONE and IF the start surface is already smooth and sealed SANDING PRIOR TO FINAL SAND WILL BE NONEXISTENT........this makes less time making any dust that can harm you or dirty the work area.........I really don't want to sand at all untill I'm finished since the particles can find their way into your work really easy.......drop something and it could go airborne and land in your finish.....so at least for me I don't really sand I take the time to make sure I don't have to.........
If and when I do sand I use a piece of angle iron as my sanding block to get everything perfectly flush...........I switched from wet sanding with a little water to just using a light or clear oil such as the mineral oil.......it reduces friction and heat which an excess of can damage a CA finish IMOP along with making a nice slurry which makes for less scratches as your going through the grits, which makes for a higher mirror shine.
When I'm done I wipe down the cue with windex or some other household cleaner to remove the oil and slurry mixture on the surface, I then hit it with Meguires Swirl X and then a carnauba and KAPOW shine shine shine.........
This finish is deeper, bonds better b/c of extended drying time so it can penetrate the wood, the oil also bonds with the CA and makes it flexible so it doesn't ding and bubble up from separation.
For those that try it PM me with your results or any questions you may have.
have fun,
-Grey Ghost-
CA is noxious so make sure you have good ventilation.
You also need the right sandpaper grits or better yet high enough grits. CA needs either polishing up to 12,000 MICRO GRIT or you can go to 2000 and then use polishing/buffing compounds.
When sanding the CA spin the lathe and make a pass then turn it off and use the same grit traveling LENGTHWAYS up and down the shaft in smooth even passes. When spinning the sandpaper will leave ring scratches around the circumference of the cue, when you stop it and sand lengthways it removes the circular scratches and will leave the finish "scratches" running with the grain of the wood.
If you don't go through the proper grits in this fashion your going to have swirls and fine scratches in the finish and that really shows up when the cue is polished out.
WATER IS A NO NO!!!!!! KEEP WATER OF ANY KIND AWAY FROM WHERE YOUR WORKING...........don't breath on the CA, don't touch the CA with your bare fingers..........WATER MAKES CA TURN FROST WHITE!
As for the statment that CA flashes b/f it penetrates the wood, thats variable from type to type and brand to brand. YOU CAN FIX THIS PROBLEM VERY SIMPLE..........and the technique fixes another innate problem with CA, its BRITTLENESS.
The best CA would have a somewhat controlled drying time as to get maximum wood penetration and be somewhat flexible so as not to bubble when hit....the bubbling when it gets hit is for two reasons
A) either they didn't use a sealer and the CA dried b/f it penetrated the wood
B) its too brittle/hard
Now here's the fix:
You can adjust the drying time of CA very simply. All it takes is OIL. Olive Oil, Corn Oil, Baby Oil, Vegetable Oil, Danish Oil.
The yellow oils such as Corn/vegetable/olive even help to add that little tint of honey that you find in old growth maple..........if you don't want any tinting of the finish then use a Baby Oil/Mineral Oil as its clear.
I cover the bottle of oil with a cloth and turn it over so as to get a nice silver dollar sized oil pad on my cloth. Then with the lathe spinning I add a layer of the oil, IMMIDEATELY after I grab my THIN CA and again with the lathe spinning I keep my cloth on the wood and drip the CA onto the workpiece right on top my cloth going up and down the workpiece for a min or so untill the cloth is stiff from the CA drying, and the finish is "SET"
The finish is already very very smooth so only if necessary i hit it with a light grit steel wool. DO NOT DO THIS IF THE FINISH ISN'T DRY YET, you will strip it all off if you do........as the oil makes the CA's drying time increase drastically.
If my coat is smooth I'll forgo the steel wool and grab another cloth put the oil on it and repeat the same exact process i described above.
You can use thin, you can use thick CA with this method.......it doesn't make a diff since the drying time is lengthened so that you have plenty of time to smooth it out without your cloth instead of sanding.
Depending on if you use a Thin or a Thick you could need anywhere from around 7 to 20 coats to complete the process.
After its done and you have it thick enough to work with let it sit for quite a few hours b/f sanding as to be certain that the finish has dried fully.
Sand & Polish the finish like i have described.
These finishes have more "depth" than auto clears/epoxies/UV this is b/c of the OIL........
Another thing to know is that the OIL is going to fill in any small scratches and such on the top layer before your next layer is applied. This is another reason that I really don't sand b/t coats since A) Its already smooth/even. B) There are no scratches.
Also sanding can leave little white spots in the low areas that can easily be missed and those will show up if you don't watch your surface cleanliness....the spots are just DUST sitting in the tiny low spot or scratch.......if you sand or use whatever then hit it with a piece of TACK CLOTH to remove the bad dust and debris from the workpiece.
After its clean then start with your oil on the cloth again and make a pass. INSPECT IT and check for particles in the oil coat on the workpiece....anything will show up very well as the oil makes the surface glossy so trespassing particles will be easy to see and remove before continuing with the process.
DONT USE ACCELERATOR IT WILL DEFEAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS METHOD AND MAKES CA AN EVEN WORSE PRODUCT OVERALL FOR USE ON A CUES FINISH IMOP
Overall the method i described above does take longer than "normal" application methods but its just WAIT TIME as opposed to Work time
There is one great benefit that helps the method is that IF PROPERLY DONE and IF the start surface is already smooth and sealed SANDING PRIOR TO FINAL SAND WILL BE NONEXISTENT........this makes less time making any dust that can harm you or dirty the work area.........I really don't want to sand at all untill I'm finished since the particles can find their way into your work really easy.......drop something and it could go airborne and land in your finish.....so at least for me I don't really sand I take the time to make sure I don't have to.........
If and when I do sand I use a piece of angle iron as my sanding block to get everything perfectly flush...........I switched from wet sanding with a little water to just using a light or clear oil such as the mineral oil.......it reduces friction and heat which an excess of can damage a CA finish IMOP along with making a nice slurry which makes for less scratches as your going through the grits, which makes for a higher mirror shine.
When I'm done I wipe down the cue with windex or some other household cleaner to remove the oil and slurry mixture on the surface, I then hit it with Meguires Swirl X and then a carnauba and KAPOW shine shine shine.........
This finish is deeper, bonds better b/c of extended drying time so it can penetrate the wood, the oil also bonds with the CA and makes it flexible so it doesn't ding and bubble up from separation.
For those that try it PM me with your results or any questions you may have.
have fun,
-Grey Ghost-
Pretty cool Keeb.
Good post Keeb.
A chemist friend said that good qualit varnish used a high end oil while cheap varnish used a low end oil. Effectivley the Cyano and oil is like chemically reproduceing a form of varnish.
A simple test for oil compatibility is to have a paper towel with a sample of the oil, place a drop or so of the cyano you want to use, and see if it penetrates through the towel the oil and sticks to something. Could be you fingers, piece of wood what ever.
Clear castor oil also works well for some applications and woods.
A chemist friend said that good qualit varnish used a high end oil while cheap varnish used a low end oil. Effectivley the Cyano and oil is like chemically reproduceing a form of varnish.
A simple test for oil compatibility is to have a paper towel with a sample of the oil, place a drop or so of the cyano you want to use, and see if it penetrates through the towel the oil and sticks to something. Could be you fingers, piece of wood what ever.
Clear castor oil also works well for some applications and woods.
Add
Just to add 2 things to the great info already in this post. First, super glue needs to be stored in the refrigerator when not in use. It has a shelf life and is greatly extended if kept cold (do not freeze).
Second, super glue comes not only in different viscosities but different grades also, like most things some are "cheap" and some are a much better grade.
"USA GOLD" is probably the best brand there is, in my opinion, and many others. It is triple distilled and I was always assured of "fresh made" glue when i ordered from their web site. That was years ago so I don't know if you can still do that. A simple Google will tell ya.
Again, beware of "old" CA, try to find made dates if its there and if over 1 year old i would not use it.
Just to add 2 things to the great info already in this post. First, super glue needs to be stored in the refrigerator when not in use. It has a shelf life and is greatly extended if kept cold (do not freeze).
Second, super glue comes not only in different viscosities but different grades also, like most things some are "cheap" and some are a much better grade.
"USA GOLD" is probably the best brand there is, in my opinion, and many others. It is triple distilled and I was always assured of "fresh made" glue when i ordered from their web site. That was years ago so I don't know if you can still do that. A simple Google will tell ya.
Again, beware of "old" CA, try to find made dates if its there and if over 1 year old i would not use it.
This has to be one of the best posts concerning CA finishing. Thanks Grey Ghost.
ps It's nice to see someone who knows how to spell grey.
ps It's nice to see someone who knows how to spell grey.
Hey Ghost,
Great post!!!!!!
I don't finish my cue with CA but in certain situations I use it to fix or blend a repair area on customer's cue.
All of the details you posted will help me in the future and this post of yours answered a lot of questions I had.
Thanks,
Rick
Great post!!!!!!
I don't finish my cue with CA but in certain situations I use it to fix or blend a repair area on customer's cue.
All of the details you posted will help me in the future and this post of yours answered a lot of questions I had.
Thanks,
Rick
I just did a quick trial with vegetable oil on quilted maple. Holy smokes! The figure really popped, and that's not doing it justice. 'Freaking exploded' seems more accurate. I haven't actually touched it with sandpaper, just a napkin and buffing compound, but the writing is on the wall. One note: do NOT touch the stuff with your bare fingers until it has set for a good while or you'll leave amazing fingerprints in the finish.
my first super glue finish
a bit off the subject, but , i was putting on my first sg finish, not using the right equipment and in a hurry to finish some of my first cues. taking a deep breath, fan to my back, putting on a few coats and quickly stepping back to get another breath, then a few more coats, i started to step back for a bit more oxygen, and almost fell as my sneaker came off, i had super glued my shoe to the floor.
chuck
a bit off the subject, but , i was putting on my first sg finish, not using the right equipment and in a hurry to finish some of my first cues. taking a deep breath, fan to my back, putting on a few coats and quickly stepping back to get another breath, then a few more coats, i started to step back for a bit more oxygen, and almost fell as my sneaker came off, i had super glued my shoe to the floor.
chuck