D Appleton is against pivoting for spin ?

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
It is hard to imagine since we're normally like two peas in a pod with our thinking and technique. :eek:o_O

๐Ÿ˜†

Experience always come into play, but it doesn't take place the same way you're describing it in the video. The final solution for english is actually the FIRST visual solution. You aim at COB, A, C, or EDGES. Then make the pivot in tip segments from CCB.
That's it.

How is that determined for the amount and what do you specifically aim at? The fraction needed to make the shot without english? A specific new and different fraction? How many to the right or left? Is it "feel"/guesswork, or a specific measured distance? If specific, where is it located from the "no english" fraction?

CB deflection and swerve is different for each player, due to the player's specific cue shaft deflection, stroke speed and cue elevation for different shots. So there is no one-size-fits-all aiming adjustment for english. That's why I stress to players to pay attention to where their cue tip is pointed in relation to the ob. It helps you figure out your own adjustments needed for english.

Nothing wrong with using a pivot to apply spin, besides the fact that it takes your grip hand off the alignment line you initially came down on. And this can very easily cause intermittent results because your stroke and your body are no longer in perfect tune for the shot. Can a player eventually start getting consistent results using the bhe pivot method? Sure they can. But the timeframe involved to reach that consistency would likely far exceed the timeframe involved when keeping your body and stroke on the same line.

Instead of aiming the shot without english and then pivoting to find the aim with english, and then shooting from there, I believe it would be more efficient and beneficial to train the mind to just recognize the english aim line from a standing position in the first place. So my video shows a way that players can use bhe to help train their mind so they'll eventually be able to recognize the english aim line from a standing position without having to do any bhe pivoting.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
You do realize the very small pivot necessary for bhe doesnโ€™t get your stroke or body out of whack
Absolutely! Their description and understanding makes it seem like you have to be a contortionist and end up looking like a pretzel over the ball. Moving the tip even 1/2" off to the side might even be excessive. And at no time does the feet, stance,
or body have to be reset or readjusted. That is insanity and no clue.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
You do realize the very small pivot necessary for bhe doesnโ€™t get your stroke or body out of whack

No, I don't realize that. Fact is, being off just a millimeter or 2 in stroke delivery is plenty enough to screw up many shots.

The thing is, most of us have used bhe for so long that we make it work, despite our stroke being off from our body alignment. I mean, if we do anything long enough, regardless of initial inconsistencies and awkwardness, we eventually figure out how to make it work more consistently.

Anyway, I'd say if your grip hand is 2 or 3 inches offline with your foot and bridge and elbow, it's out of whack. And that's what applying 1 tip of bhe does. Using a 10" bridge length and 1 tip of side spin: Bridge hand stays put while the tip moves about 12 to 13mm off the initial setup line, and the butt end of the cue (grip hand) moves 2 to 3 inches off the line.

Like I said, it'll work just fine, eventually. Plenty of us here can prove that it works. But the countless hours of table time we spent learning how to make it work probably wasn't the best way to learn. I believe, as Appleton shows in his video, and as I show in my video, that a more effective learning method can be used to become more consistent when aiming using english.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
๐Ÿ˜†



CB deflection and swerve is different for each player, due to the player's specific cue shaft deflection, stroke speed and cue elevation for different shots. So there is no one-size-fits-all aiming adjustment for english. That's why I stress to players to pay attention to where their cue tip is pointed in relation to the ob. It helps you figure out your own adjustments needed for english.
Brian, you really don't know what there is to know and no way of getting through to you since you absolutely think you know.
Nothing wrong with using a pivot to apply spin, besides the fact that it takes your grip hand off the alignment line you initially came down on. And this can very easily cause intermittent results because your stroke and your body are no longer in perfect tune for the shot. Can a player eventually start getting consistent results using the bhe pivot method? Sure they can. But the timeframe involved to reach that consistency would likely far exceed the timeframe involved when keeping your body and stroke on the same line.
Ahhhhh, NOPE!
Instead of aiming the shot without english and then pivoting to find the aim with english, and then shooting from there, I believe it would be more efficient and beneficial to train the mind to just recognize the english aim line from a standing position in the first place. So my video shows a way that players can use bhe to help train their mind so they'll eventually be able to recognize the english aim line from a standing position without having to do any bhe pivoting.
So, in other words you really DON'T KNOW what there is to know. Hey, I don't know exactly how to use your fractional system but I'm proud to say "I ADMIT IT." I'm also not going to learn it.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
๐Ÿ˜†



CB deflection and swerve is different for each player, due to the player's specific cue shaft deflection, stroke speed and cue elevation for different shots. So there is no one-size-fits-all aiming adjustment for english. That's why I stress to players to pay attention to where their cue tip is pointed in relation to the ob. It helps you figure out your own adjustments needed for english.
Sounds like a slow boat to China doing it this way.
Nothing wrong with using a pivot to apply spin, besides the fact that it takes your grip hand off the alignment line you initially came down on. And this can very easily cause intermittent results because your stroke and your body are no longer in perfect tune for the shot. Can a player eventually start getting consistent results using the bhe pivot method? Sure they can. But the timeframe involved to reach that consistency would likely far exceed the timeframe involved when keeping your body and stroke on the same line.
No, it doesn't. It takes a lot longer doing it the way you propose, and some may never get it.
Instead of aiming the shot without english and then pivoting to find the aim with english, and then shooting from there, I believe it would be more efficient and beneficial to train the mind to just recognize the english aim line from a standing position in the first place. So my video shows a way that players can use bhe to help train their mind so they'll eventually be able to recognize the english aim line from a standing position without having to do any bhe pivoting.
That's the way I once used to play. Never again. You make it sound like BHE is the worst thing a pool player can learn and do.
For someone who is always talking about opening the mind to new theories and concepts, you certainly have a closed one and it's causing you to miss the boat entirely. Too bad you're influencing others with your misconceptions.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
No, I don't realize that. Fact is, being off just a millimeter or 2 in stroke delivery is plenty enough to screw up many shots.

The thing is, most of us have used bhe for so long that we make it work, despite our stroke being off from our body alignment. I mean, if we do anything long enough, regardless of initial inconsistencies and awkwardness, we eventually figure out how to make it work more consistently.
It can be taught to do it the right way like just about everything else.
Anyway, I'd say if your grip hand is 2 or 3 inches offline with your foot and bridge and elbow, it's out of whack. And that's what applying 1 tip of bhe does. Using a 10" bridge length and 1 tip of side spin: Bridge hand stays put while the tip moves about 12 to 13mm off the initial setup line, and the butt end of the cue (grip hand) moves 2 to 3 inches off the line.

Like I said, it'll work just fine, eventually. Plenty of us here can prove that it works. But the countless hours of table time we spent learning how to make it work probably wasn't the best way to learn. I believe, as Appleton shows in his video, and as I show in my video, that a more effective learning method can be used to become more consistent when aiming using english.
Tell that to Bustamante and see what HE says back.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
It can be taught to do it the right way like just about everything else.

Tell that to Bustamante and see what HE says back.

If by "right way" you mean moving/pivoting the entire setup in accordance with the bhe pivot, or simply standing back up and coming down on the adjusted english aim line, then yes I agree.

And it doesn't matter what Bustamante would say about it. That's like asking a player with a Keith McCready sidearm stroke what he thinks about ensuring that the grip and elbow and shoulder and stance are all in line with the stroke... ๐Ÿ˜†

Probably the most valuable skill any pool player should strive for is a 100% consistent stroke delivery through the cb. So it makes sense, in order to develop solid consistency, that every stroke should be the same as far as body mechanics go.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Brian, you really don't know what there is to know and no way of getting through to you since you absolutely think you know.

......

It takes a lot longer doing it the way you propose, and some may never get it.

......

It can be taught to do it the right way like just about everything else.

Dave, please enlighten me. I love to learn things. What is the "right way"?

What studies or data do you have that make you so sure my proposed method will take longer for players to develop a good eye for aiming with english? I believe it's just your opinion. And so I have my own opinion as well. But mine is based on research that involves skills where muscle memory and hand-eye coordination are used.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Dave, please enlighten me. I love to learn things. What is the "right way"?

What studies or data do you have that make you so sure my proposed method will take longer for players to develop a good eye for aiming with english? I believe it's just your opinion. And so I have my own opinion as well. But mine is based on research that involves skills where muscle memory and hand-eye coordination are used.
The right way is going down with the tip.location already made up.
Not going down to the center of the ball and then pivoting for the spin.
Well,. according to Appleton and Tor Lowry anyway.
Love Bustamante but his pivot is a gimmick.
He even says so.
I don't think he'd recommend his angled elbow either.
Or his very long bridge.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
If by "right way" you mean moving/pivoting the entire setup in accordance with the bhe pivot, or simply standing back up and coming down on the adjusted english aim line, then yes I agree.
That's NOT what I mean and there is no agreement because you just flat out don't know what there is to know yet think you do.
And it doesn't matter what Bustamante would say about it. That's like asking a player with a Keith McCready sidearm stroke what he thinks about ensuring that the grip and elbow and shoulder and stance are all in line with the stroke... ๐Ÿ˜†
There are a lot of different idiosyncrasies and ways of doing thing in the upper echelon of the pro ranks in pool or other sports.
Probably the most valuable skill any pool player should strive for is a 100% consistent stroke delivery through the cb. So it makes sense, in order to develop solid consistency, that every stroke should be the same as far as body mechanics go.
Body mechanics are learned. A lot of great players in multiple sports don't have perfect mechanics but go on to greatness in spite of some flaws. In pool, PIVOTING isn't a flaw. It's a great tool.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
The right way is going down with the tip.location already made up.
Not going down to the center of the ball and then pivoting for the spin.
Well,. according to Appleton and Tor Lowry anyway.
And in my case as well as many others, I could give a rat's ass what those two think or teach. In pool, there's multiple "right ways" especially if they all work.
Love Bustamante but his pivot is a gimmick.
He even says so.
You don't ingrain a "gimmick" and use it to perfection with every shot taken if it serves no purpose. He can say what he wants but not mean it just to get others off of his back.
I don't think he'd recommend his angled elbow either.
Or his very long bridge.
It obviously doesn't make it wrong. He proves otherwise.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Dave, please enlighten me. I love to learn things. What is the "right way"?
It's been said multiple times. Do you have a lot of wax in your ears or goop in your eyes? Clean them out.
What studies or data do you have that make you so sure my proposed method will take longer for players to develop a good eye for aiming with english? I believe it's just your opinion. And so I have my own opinion as well. But mine is based on research that involves skills where muscle memory and hand-eye coordination are used.
Mine is from the school of hard knocks and learning from others who are far better players and more knowledgeable than both of us will ever be.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's NOT what I mean and there is no agreement because you just flat out don't know what there is to know yet think you do.

Ok. How about sharing what you're talking about, because I don't think anyone knows. Lol

......

Body mechanics are learned. A lot of great players in multiple sports don't have perfect mechanics but go on to greatness in spite of some flaws. In pool, PIVOTING isn't a flaw. It's a great tool.

Body mechanics are muscle memory, the result of practice and repetition. Why would someone practice over and over and over again the fundamental body mechanics of the pool stroke or the golf swing, or whatever, all in an effort to develop consistency, only to abandon that consistency by occassionally doing it off whack or slightly differently? ๐Ÿค”
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Ok. How about sharing what you're talking about, because I don't think anyone knows. Lol
This is really simple. GOYA!! Which is an acronym for, GET OFF YOUR ASS!!

Set EACH of these shots up ON YOUR TABLE and do EXACTLY AS HE DOES AND SAYS TO DO IT!!
I'm not going to keep this garbage up until you do get on the table along with describing the results.

Body mechanics are muscle memory, the result of practice and repetition. Why would someone practice over and over and over again the fundamental body mechanics of the pool stroke or the golf swing, or whatever, all in an effort to develop consistency, only to abandon that consistency by occassionally doing it off whack or slightly differently? ๐Ÿค”
What if what they're doing in the pool stroke or golf swing is ingraining something NOT AS BENEFICIAL or CORRECT as they could or should be doing? Why do you think professional instructors are working with the TOP PLAYERS in the world who have
incorrect movements or positions that have crept into their way of playing and striking the ball and didn't even realize it? Or, there was a BETTER way of doing it?
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Ok. How about sharing what you're talking about, because I don't think anyone knows. Lol



Body mechanics are muscle memory, the result of practice and repetition. Why would someone practice over and over and over again the fundamental body mechanics of the pool stroke or the golf swing, or whatever, all in an effort to develop consistency, only to abandon that consistency by occassionally doing it off whack or slightly differently? ๐Ÿค”
They surely don't in snooker .
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is really simple. GOYA!! Which is an acronym for, GET OFF YOUR ASS!!

Set EACH of these shots up ON YOUR TABLE and do EXACTLY AS HE DOES AND SAYS TO DO IT!!
I'm not going to keep this garbage up until you do get on the table along with describing the results.


What if what they're doing in the pool stroke or golf swing is ingraining something NOT AS BENEFICIAL or CORRECT as they could or should be doing? Why do you think professional instructors are working with the TOP PLAYERS in the world who have
incorrect movements or positions that have crept into their way of playing and striking the ball and didn't even realize it? Or, there was a BETTER way of doing it?

As far as "Splitting the difference ".. ๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†

Do you even know what this thread is about? It has nothing to do with CTE or Shiskabob or little Mike's hybrid version of those. It is about backhand english. And the only thing Darren Appleton is saying, which I happen to agree with, is that traditional BHE is not good for helping a player develop consistency, because it causes your cue to be on a different line than your body and your machined/developed stroke.

That's it. There is no further knowledge needed to understand the issue. Not sure where you're trying to steer this thread, but the subject is pretty simple and has nothing to do with hip pivots or visual air pivots or anything else, unless that is the method a player chooses to use after looking at where the backhand english line would be.
 
Last edited:

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
As far as "Splitting the difference ".. ๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†

Do you even know what this thread is about? It has nothing to do with CTE or Shiskabob or little Mike's hybrid version of those. It is about backhand english. And the only thing Darren Appleton is saying, which I happen to agree with, is that traditional BHE is not good for helping a player develop consistency, because it causes your cue to be on a different line than your body and your machined/developed stroke.

That's it. There is no further knowledge needed to understand the issue. Not sure where you're trying to steer this thread, but the subject is pretty simple and has nothing to do with hip pivots or visual air pivots or anything else, unless that is the method a player chooses to use after looking at where the backhand english line would be.
word
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
As far as "Splitting the difference ".. ๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†
Looks like you have Kamala Harris hideous laughing syndrome when you have nothing to say except something else more stupid than what just came out of your mouth.
Do you even know what this thread is about? It has nothing to do with CTE or Shiskabob or little Mike's hybrid version of those. It is about backhand english.
Are you a moron? All of the above is about PIVOTING which is what backhand english is.
And the only thing Darren Appleton is saying, which I happen to agree with, is that traditional BHE is not good for helping a player develop consistency, because it causes your cue to be on a different line than your body and your machined/developed stroke.
That's HIS opinion. Certainly not every pro player or pro instructor. You just happen to side with him. I don't.
That's it. There is no further knowledge needed to understand the issue. Not sure where you're trying to steer this thread, but the subject is pretty simple and has nothing to do with hip pivots or visual air pivots or anything else, unless that is the method a player chooses to use after looking at where the backhand english line would be.
Looks like you're trying to steer this thread. Just because it's here, where's the rule that I should agree with it and go along?
I don't! When does ANY thread in all the different forums since the inception of AZB have 100% full agreement?
It never happened and never will and that goes for ALL forums and every different topic discussion on the planet.

Now, GOYA!
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is really simple. GOYA!! Which is an acronym for, GET OFF YOUR ASS!!

Set EACH of these shots up ON YOUR TABLE and do EXACTLY AS HE DOES AND SAYS TO DO IT!!
I'm not going to keep this garbage up until you do get on the table along with describing the results.


What if what they're doing in the pool stroke or golf swing is ingraining something NOT AS BENEFICIAL or CORRECT as they could or should be doing? Why do you think professional instructors are working with the TOP PLAYERS in the world who have
incorrect movements or positions that have crept into their way of playing and striking the ball and didn't even realize it? Or, there was a BETTER way of doing it?
This video explains pretty much what Joey says Efren and Busti do, aim thick and spin it in
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
.....
All of the above is about PIVOTING which is what backhand english is.

That's HIS opinion. Certainly not every pro player or pro instructor. You just happen to side with him. I don't.

Looks like you're trying to steer this thread. Just because it's here, where's the rule that I should agree with it and go along?
I don't! When does ANY thread in all the different forums since the inception of AZB have 100% full agreement?
It never happened and never will and that goes for ALL forums and every different topic discussion on the planet.

Now, GOYA!

The thread is about pivoting to apply english. That's it. It really is that simple.

You keep trying to push it farther than that, probably due to your automatic psychological defense mechanism for pivot-style aiming. You can rest assured that I have zero interest in pivot aiming, whether it's little Mike's split the difference or Shiskabob or old-school manual CTE. So you can straighten your panties out and calm down anytime. Lol
 
Top