D Appleton is against pivoting for spin ?

[BC21]

He certainly seems to be against anything like "backhand english".

Yes, but that doesn't mean bhe can't be used as a tool to help players develop good aiming skills when applying english. All Appleton is saying is that stroking the cue through that post-bhe (skewed) line is not good, since the stroke mechanics are not normally lined up with an outward or inward grip hand.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The thread is about pivoting to apply english. That's it. It really is that simple.

If you're pivoting to apply english, you still have to make the shot. So, you damn well better know what to do and how to aim it with an angled cue or the shot will be missed. But lo and behold, angling the cue can also be used in the aiming process which serves a DUAL purpose. How neat and easy is THAT?

Wake the hell up!

You keep trying to push it farther than that, probably due to your automatic psychological defense mechanism for pivot-style aiming. You can rest assured that I have zero interest in pivot aiming, whether it's little Mike's split the difference or Shiskabob or old-school manual CTE.

I know you have no interest in it nor do you know one iota about it. You just keep spouting off incorrect worthless garbage.

So you can straighten your panties out and calm down anytime. Lol

Take your own advice. If you think for one second this is all new stuff being brought out and never beat around before, you would be wrong as usual. It was here way before you ever made a post or knew AZB existed. Take a history lesson.
Just don't be a jerk and post in the old thread. I know how you love having the last word in everything that comes up for
discussion as if you're the final official word and that's the way pool should be played because, well, just because you said so.

Redefining the Definition of Backhand English

I'm not sure how it happened, but it happened. And because of internet viral wild fire, somewhere along the line the definition of Backhand English has been changed to something that it wasn't. Many of you know me as someone who embraced the...

forums.azbilliards.com

 

[BC21]

If you're pivoting to apply english, you still have to make the shot. So, you damn well better know what to do and how to aim it with an angled cue or the shot will be missed. But lo and behold, angling the cue can also be used in the aiming process which serves a DUAL purpose. How neat and easy is THAT?

Wake the hell up!

I know you have no interest in it nor do you know one iota about it. You just keep spouting off incorrect worthless garbage.

Take your own advice. If you think for one second this is all new stuff being brought out and never beat around before, you would be wrong as usual. It was here way before you ever made a post or knew AZB existed. Take a history lesson.
Just don't be a jerk and post in the old thread. I know how you love having the last word in everything that comes up for
discussion as if you're the final official word and that's the way pool should be played because, well, just because you said so.

Redefining the Definition of Backhand English

I'm not sure how it happened, but it happened. And because of internet viral wild fire, somewhere along the line the definition of Backhand English has been changed to something that it wasn't. Many of you know me as someone who embraced the...

forums.azbilliards.com

Interesting old thread. I read some of it. Funny thing though.... back when I was about 16 years old (1984), an older player showed me how to apply english by keeping my bridge hand still and just moving my grip hand. He didn't call it "backhand" english, but that's what it was. It really doesn't matter who termed the method.

The thing is, I quickly learned that it only works on firm shots. To make it work on softer shots I had to experiment with my bridge length. Eventually I got good at it, like everyone else who learned to apply english in this manner, this off whack stroke where my grip hand is not lined up with my stance and my elbow and my shoulder. I even shared the method with others and years later put it my 1st book.

But now I realize it probably wasn't the best way to learn, because it involves manipulating the normal stroke. And that's what this thread is about. It's not about Hal Houle or pivot aiming, at least not for me. So you can keep harping on that, but I am more concerned with helping players develop a good eye for aiming with english while using their normal stroke setup, no backhand pivot required.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Interesting old thread. I read some of it. Funny thing though.... back when I was about 16 years old (1984), an older player showed me how to apply english by keeping my bridge hand still and just moving my grip hand. He didn't call it "backhand" english, but that's what it was. It really doesn't matter who termed the method.

The thing is, I quickly learned that it only works on firm shots.

You were too young and dumb in general regarding pool to figure out what needed to be known for different variations. When I was 16 AND beyond, I was also too young and dumb for a good number of aspects in pool. Still am in a bunch of respects and not ashamed to admit it. I get reminded with wake-up calls every time I visit Hopkins.

To make it work on softer shots I had to experiment with my bridge length. Eventually I got good at it, like everyone else who learned to apply english in this manner, this off whack stroke where my grip hand is not lined up with my stance and my elbow and my shoulder. I even shared the method with others and years later put it my 1st book.

That's one way of doing it. There are others.

But now I realize it probably wasn't the best way to learn, because it involves manipulating the normal stroke.

What is a normal stroke? Any stroke that is used in pool is a normal stroke IF one is knowledgeable and proficient at it. It includes a JUMP STROKE, BREAK STROKE, or MASSE STROKE.

And that's what this thread is about.

Threads MORPH. Almost all the time. Besides, it's your interpretation to fit your agenda. Too bad.

It's not about Hal Houle or pivot aiming, at least not for me. So you can keep harping on that, but I am more concerned with helping players develop a good eye for aiming with english while using their normal stroke setup, no backhand pivot required.

Then I guess you oughta stick to what you know best for teaching and playing because you certainly don't know jackshit about how the backhand is supposed to work for applying English as well as making the ball as deadly as can be while using it.
Therefore, you're totally biased. Backhand SKILL is in fact a PIVOT and a super way to play the game. I played the way you play or want others to play and there are far, far too many compensations that need to be made with guesswork such as squirt/deflection, throw, etc. which then requires a NEW CONTACT POINT to factor all of it in. It's way too much to be thinking about when above the ball and cue and then making an adjustment at the last second. You play the way you want to play.
And I'll do the same. But trust me when I say this, you aren't going to change what I know to work best along with thousands of other players nor change what I post to fit your agenda.

 

[BC21]

You were too young and dumb in general regarding pool to figure out what needed to be known for different variations. When I was 16 AND beyond, I was also too young and dumb for a good number of aspects in pool. Still am in a bunch of respects and not ashamed to admit it. I get reminded with wake-up calls every time I visit Hopkins.

That's one way of doing it. There are others.

What is a normal stroke? Any stroke that is used in pool is a normal stroke IF one is knowledgeable and proficient at it. It includes a JUMP STROKE, BREAK STROKE, or MASSE STROKE.

Threads MORPH. Almost all the time. Besides, it's your interpretation to fit your agenda. Too bad.

Then I guess you oughta stick to what you know best for teaching and playing because you certainly don't know jackshit about how the backhand is supposed to work for applying English as well as making the ball as deadly as can be while using it.
Therefore, you're totally biased. Backhand SKILL is in fact a PIVOT and a super way to play the game. I played the way you play or want others to play and there are far, far too many compensations that need to be made with guesswork such as squirt/deflection, throw, etc. which then requires a NEW CONTACT POINT to factor all of it in. It's way too much to be thinking about when above the ball and cue and then making an adjustment at the last second. You play the way you want to play.
And I'll do the same. But trust me when I say this, you aren't going to change what I know to work best along with thousands of other players nor change what I post to fit your agenda.

I'm not trying to change what you do. I don't care what you do. You do you and I do me. Anyhow, you learned like I learned - the school of "hard knocks" you called it. And then you found something with Hal/Stan that clicked for you, so you put in the required table time working on that. Good for you.

I am hoping to help others find an easier and shorter road than most of us old-school players followed. And I sure don't know everything there is to know, especially when it comes to pivoting. But math and a little table time has convinced me that some things aren't worth knowing, not for me anyway.

Nevertheless, I am always learning new things and more efficient ways to improve and help others improve. For someone like you who is 100% sure your way is the best, that's fine... ignore my words and ideas. It doesn't bother me at all. And the fact that I don't buy into Hal's or Stan's pivot aiming methods shouldn't bother you either.

 

[BC21]

What Darren Appleton is saying in his video has nothing to do with pivot aiming. He is simply saying that if you've worked on developing a true and consistent stroke, it isn't good to deviate from it when using spin.

I wish I had gotten that advice years ago. Because now I see the stroke and all of its moving parts as a machine. And all a player has to do is place the machine on the correct line.

The backhand english method (keeping your bridge planted and pivoting your grip hand in or out) requires a player to realign or adjust the machine parts just right to have the stroke end up on the correct line. Any consistent machine-like stroke that you've developed gets abandoned. You are now stroking the cue in a slightly different way.

Sure, doing this several hundred times from varying offset angles (different amounts of english) will eventually help you develop consistency with all those slightly different stroke alignments. But it may be more beneficial and efficient to keep your stroke the same each time and just learn to recognize where to align it.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm not trying to change what you do. I don't care what you do. You do you and I do me. Anyhow, you learned like I learned - the school of "hard knocks" you called it. And then you found something with Hal/Stan that clicked for you, so you put in the required table time working on that. Good for you.

Yes, it is good for me and thousands more all across the globe.

I am hoping to help others find an easier and shorter road than most of us old-school players followed. And I sure don't know everything there is to know, especially when it comes to pivoting.

Your honesty about pivoting is refreshing. It isn't for everyone, although it could be "IF"...

But math and a little table time has convinced me that some things aren't worth knowing, not for me anyway.

If your entire world of pool revolves around math (as poolology is), something dynamic such as pivoting isn't really possible.

Nevertheless, I am always learning new things and more efficient ways to improve and help others improve. For someone like you who is 100% sure your way is the best, that's fine... ignore my words and ideas. It doesn't bother me at all. And the fact that I don't buy into Hal's or Stan's pivot aiming methods shouldn't bother you either.

That would be fine and dandy about ignoring but if you're going to knock something you know little to nothing about and then post erroneous and derogatory comments, it ain't gonna happen. I will come after you like a pissed off Pit Bull and you won't be the only one it happens to if they do likewise.

 

[BC21]

Yes, it is good for me and thousands more all across the globe.

Your honesty about pivoting is refreshing. It isn't for everyone, although it could be "IF"...

If your entire world of pool revolves around math (as poolology is), something dynamic such as pivoting isn't really possible.

That would be fine and dandy about ignoring but if you're going to knock something you know little to nothing about and then post erroneous and derogatory comments, it ain't gonna happen. I will come after you like a pissed off Pit Bull and you won't be the only one it happens to if they do likewise.

I'm a feel player, so math isn't really the center of my pool world. But it does help clarify and define what is possible on the table.

And I don't remember knocking anything other than agreeing with Appleton about stroking the cue with your grip hand misaligned (pivoted in out or out) when applying english. Sorry if you misunderstood that as me knocking pivot-style aiming systems. That's an entirely different subject to me.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What Darren Appleton is saying in his video has nothing to do with pivot aiming. He is simply saying that if you've worked on developing a true and consistent stroke, it isn't good to deviate from it when using spin.

I wish I had gotten that advice years ago. Because now I see the stroke and all of its moving parts as a machine. And all a player has to do is place the machine on the correct line.

The backhand english method (keeping your bridge planted and pivoting your grip hand in or out) requires a player to realign or adjust the machine parts just right to have the stroke end up on the correct line. Any consistent machine-like stroke that you've developed gets abandoned. You are now stroking the cue in a slightly different way.

Sure, doing this several hundred times from varying offset angles (different amounts of english) will eventually help you develop consistency with all those slightly different stroke alignments. But it may be more beneficial and efficient to keep your stroke the same each time and just learn to recognize where to align it.

What Darren Appleton is saying in his video has nothing to do with pivot aiming.

It depends on the interpretation. No, he never specifically said pivot AIMING. But he DID put a big NO-NO on a PIVOT. It starts at 1:20 into the video. Fact is he, like other pro players, really have no knowledge of pivot AIMING which is why many have ended up taking lessons from Stan and are happy campers with a lot more ammunition in their arsenal.

He is simply saying that if you've worked on developing a true and consistent stroke, it isn't good to deviate from it when using spin.

The first shot he took in the video was a cut to the left and used LOW LEFT INSIDE ENGLISH. That's one of the hardest things to do for any level player. There was NOTHING said about how to gauge it and still aim to make the shot. And you think that's
GOOD? No aim point on the OB...nothing about deflection...nothing on any compensations.

I wish I had gotten that advice years ago. Because now I see the stroke and all of its moving parts as a machine. And all a player has to do is place the machine on the correct line.

The backhand english method (keeping your bridge planted and pivoting your grip hand in or out) requires a player to realign or adjust the machine parts just right to have the stroke end up on the correct line. Any consistent machine-like stroke that you've developed gets abandoned. You are now stroking the cue in a slightly different way.

Damn man...you really don't have a clue!

Sure, doing this several hundred times from varying offset angles (different amounts of english) will eventually help you develop consistency with all those slightly different stroke alignments. But it may be more beneficial and efficient to keep your stroke the same each time and just learn to recognize where to align it.

I reiterate...you really don't have a clue!

 

[BC21]

....

Damn man...you really don't have a clue!

I reiterate...you really don't have a clue!

Ok. I don't have a clue. Got it.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm a feel player, so math isn't really the center of my pool world. But it does help clarify and define what is possible on the table.

Then your next ebook should be regarding how to play pool all by feel. What you did produce doesn't even resemble FEEL. It's ALL math and by the numbers geometrically.

And I don't remember knocking anything other than agreeing with Appleton about stroking the cue with your grip hand misaligned (pivoted in out or out) when applying english. Sorry if you misunderstood that as me knocking pivot-style aiming systems. That's an entirely different subject to me.

Well, he knocked it so if you agree with him, it's a double knock. Pivoting with the backhand for the sake of playing with spin can be and is a very iffy maneuver when done alone after getting a contact point or fraction to aim at. Chances are slim in making the shot. His instruction on the first shot showing how he preset the tip of the cue for INSIDE ENGLISH didn't explain anything.

He didn't say what or where he was aiming at on the OB...how much he was setting the tip to the inside...if deflection was going to be an issue and how to adjust for it...nothing! He just rifled the ball into the pocket like any other player at all levels should be able to do. And you call THAT an excellent training video??

 

[SpiderWebComm]

It depends on the interpretation. No, he never specifically said pivot AIMING. But he DID put a big NO-NO on a PIVOT. It starts at 1:20 into the video. Fact is he, like other pro players, really have no knowledge of pivot AIMING which is why many have ended up taking lessons from Stan and are happy campers with a lot more ammunition in their arsenal.

The first shot he took in the video was a cut to the left and used LOW LEFT INSIDE ENGLISH. That's one of the hardest things to do for any level player. There was NOTHING said about how to gauge it and still aim to make the shot. And you think that's
GOOD? No aim point on the OB...nothing about deflection...nothing on any compensations.

Damn man...you really don't have a clue!

I reiterate...you really don't have a clue!

Ok. I don't have a clue. Got it.

I call this progress.

 

[BC21]

I call this progress.

Well, I am a quick learner. I knew you'd eventually teach me something.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Well, I am a quick learner. I knew you'd eventually teach me something.

It's called, "Entertaining the troops". Like putting on a USO show.

 

[BC21]

Then your next ebook should be regarding how to play pool all by feel. What you did produce doesn't even resemble FEEL. It's ALL math and by the numbers geometrically.

Well, he knocked it so if you agree with him, it's a double knock. Pivoting with the backhand for the sake of playing with spin can be and is a very iffy maneuver when done alone after getting a contact point or fraction to aim at. Chances are slim in making the shot. His instruction on the first shot showing how he preset the tip of the cue for INSIDE ENGLISH didn't explain anything.

He didn't say what or where he was aiming at on the OB...how much he was setting the tip to the inside...if deflection was going to be an issue and how to adjust for it...nothing! He just rifled the ball into the pocket like any other player at all levels should be able to do. And you call THAT an excellent training video??

Yeah, my 1st book was a mathematical way of developing a good feel/eye for pocketing balls.

As far as Appleton not showing any specific "aiming" method, other than his own experience, that's typical. Aiming with english is not something that many pros or many books describe. "The Flight of the Cue Ball", by Robin Kelly, is an exception.

 

[The_JV]

The thing is, most of us have used bhe for so long that we make it work, despite our stroke being off from our body alignment. I mean, if we do anything long enough, regardless of initial inconsistencies and awkwardness, we eventually figure out how to make it work more consistently.

HAMB... who knew?

 

[BC21]

HAMB... who knew?

Exactly. But I believe HAMB can be side-stepped in favor of more efficient learning methods. Maybe not. But maybe so.

 

[dquarasr]

That would be fine and dandy about ignoring but if you're going to knock something you know little to nothing about and then post erroneous and derogatory comments, it ain't gonna happen. I will come after you like a pissed off Pit Bull and you won't be the only one it happens to if they do likewise.

Why you always so angry? You should try deep breathing and try being constructive rather than consistently devolving your disagreements to ad hominem attacks.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why you always so angry? You should try deep breathing and try being constructive rather than consistently devolving your disagreements to ad hominem attacks.

How would you feel if you woke up every day and were still him?

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

Exactly. But I believe HAMB can be side-stepped in favor of more efficient learning methods. Maybe not. But maybe so.

I also believe the road to HAMB has a fast lane but destination can never be avoided. Eventually, repetition and subscious memory will replace the system used to gain HAMB experience.