in covid times
and no chance to strut/flub my stuff
this, I'm banking on :thumbup:
really tho, this has been an experiment
sitting back, waiting for the tides to turn
and when they do
I'll be curious to see how my game fares
Deep Knowledge
- Thread starter lfigueroa
- Start date
in covid times
and no chance to strut/flub my stuff
this, I'm banking on :thumbup:
really tho, this has been an experiment
sitting back, waiting for the tides to turn
and when they do
I'll be curious to see how my game fares
looks like a pool player is innovating the diamond measurement system, into sub intervals.
This pool player is exhibiting signs of advanced math concepts.
The main issue I encountered with using a specific diamond system from decades ago was having a proper overhead camera system. A good rail system is great, but having instant replay was something I dreamed of decades ago. It looks very possible with today's technology and price point. even multi angles with multiple cameras today its very affordable with only a cell phone.
I found the footage from instagram, I think its a great idea. if this is how the today's players find new edges in the game, its going to be tougher to spot someone working on new traps.
Seems like there has to be a 30 foot ceiling before a camera can focus properly, and then the lights are in the way. I'll take the fisheye before noverhead.
Not today
The miracles of software! Not up to date on it but you can mount two cameras some distance apart to each shoot half the table and the software merges the two seamlessly. Not just laying the two images side by side but correcting overlap and truly merging every frame. I know that fisheye correction is also available. Will the same software do both or will the two softwares work and play well together?
Another issue seldom addressed is bloom. Red is I believe the worst color but what you see on video ain't always what is there.
I think the dual camera deal is best for now but I wonder how many cameras could be spliced eventually? Correct by comparing what four or more cameras saw? This kind of stuff won't be designed for pool of course, we may still be able to use it.
Hu
The miracles of software! Not up to date on it but you can mount two cameras some distance apart to each shoot half the table and the software merges the two seamlessly. Not just laying the two images side by side but correcting overlap and truly merging every frame. I know that fisheye correction is also available. Will the same software do both or will the two softwares work and play well together?
Another issue seldom addressed is bloom. Red is I believe the worst color but what you see on video ain't always what is there.
I think the dual camera deal is best for now but I wonder how many cameras could be spliced eventually? Correct by comparing what four or more cameras saw? This kind of stuff won't be designed for pool of course, we may still be able to use it.
Hu
The images can't be merged perfectly because the cameras see different parts of the balls that are right between them. I think what would be better is for the system to catch the positions of the balls and put the moving coordinates into something like VP to replay the shot. The viewpoint would be selectable and all the speeds and spins could be measured.
Just a small matter of programming.
@ boattuh yooz
Now that's exciting stuff. Can't wait. :thumbup2:
Now that's exciting stuff. Can't wait. :thumbup2:
saw this months ago
Bob,
I saw this months ago so I am a little soft on details. However, this was to merge the images coming from two video cameras so it is just a given that the issue you are talking about would have to be dealt with. Shouldn't be that big of a horsepower issue. Back in '93 with the PC and software from that period I could locate every point in a ten mile radius to 3/8" accuracy on an image. Points on maybe a twelve by twenty feet field shouldn't be that difficult. Balls should be far easier to see and understand than a human or something else with an irregular shape. We are only dealing with two-dimensional display too. Everything on the display is flat.
The primary issues seem to be mechanical. Positioning and alignment of the cameras and then synchronizing the shooting of images. One thing that isn't clear is what you mean by right between them. Both cameras are still overhead, there is nothing in the field of view that is between the cameras.
Hu
Bob,
I saw this months ago so I am a little soft on details. However, this was to merge the images coming from two video cameras so it is just a given that the issue you are talking about would have to be dealt with. Shouldn't be that big of a horsepower issue. Back in '93 with the PC and software from that period I could locate every point in a ten mile radius to 3/8" accuracy on an image. Points on maybe a twelve by twenty feet field shouldn't be that difficult. Balls should be far easier to see and understand than a human or something else with an irregular shape. We are only dealing with two-dimensional display too. Everything on the display is flat.
The primary issues seem to be mechanical. Positioning and alignment of the cameras and then synchronizing the shooting of images. One thing that isn't clear is what you mean by right between them. Both cameras are still overhead, there is nothing in the field of view that is between the cameras.
Hu
Not just programming
A high shutter speed camera, it has to be able to clearly show dynamics on film frame by frame. With off the shelf products its blurry, or only works at slow speeds.
modifications to the billiards ball to make computer tracking easier. I think a banded ball (with solid and striped bands) is best it can display rotational information better than the measles ball.
after the physical changes than tasking the processor is ok.
____If you get past the hardware, then I'd like to talk more about filming angle for a person stroking the cue. Stroke analysis which filming angles are most important?
the programming part has been finished or can be borrowed from many existing technologies.
everything i am talking about is for importing data into a virtual simulator but something better than VP, something that runs on professional hardware, not commercial hardware.
Bob if you have access to the equipment or equipment makers I can provide additional notes.
A high shutter speed camera, it has to be able to clearly show dynamics on film frame by frame. With off the shelf products its blurry, or only works at slow speeds.
modifications to the billiards ball to make computer tracking easier. I think a banded ball (with solid and striped bands) is best it can display rotational information better than the measles ball.
after the physical changes than tasking the processor is ok.
____If you get past the hardware, then I'd like to talk more about filming angle for a person stroking the cue. Stroke analysis which filming angles are most important?
the programming part has been finished or can be borrowed from many existing technologies.
everything i am talking about is for importing data into a virtual simulator but something better than VP, something that runs on professional hardware, not commercial hardware.
Bob if you have access to the equipment or equipment makers I can provide additional notes.
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sounds like their work is still teaching people with a simple to understand biographical history of places theyve been.
world championships
World championships back in the day were decided in different ways. Often only a handful of players. Sometimes a round robin played including the existing world champion, sometimes all the other competitors battled each other and only one got to contend for the world championship so the people that held the championship might play one match to retain their title.
Also, in years where the championship wasn't contested due to matters large or small like the war to end all wars, generally the title was awarded to the person who had it the year before. You could be declared world champion without picking up a stick!
Greenleaf was the older player, Mosconi the kid. No question who should be teaching who or who should be learning by observation and experience. However, Greenleaf was an alcoholic, deep down into the depths of alcoholism. Greenleaf played great pool drunk or sober but there were times when he couldn't play at all.
I would say that Mosconi learned from Greenleaf but there is also the matter of steel honing steel. If you are in a small town where the best player is a high "C" or low "B" level player, at most you may become a little bit above this player. Very few rise above their competition more than a small degree at best. If your competition is the best in the world, you are struggling to beat that level of competition.
The best cars at the local track were local heroes and the fans thought they were something! These same guys went to the big city and got their rears handed to them at Boot Hill. There was a bigger city less than a hundred and fifty miles from Boot Hill. The guys from Boot hill go to Devil's Bowl, they were back markers just as the small town hero had been at Boot Hill. For the guy at the local track to beat the competition at Devil's Bowl, they had to jump several major levels above the competition they ran against most Saturday nights. Not impossible but not likely. Reverse things and a middle of the pack car at Devil's Bowl looked like a god if they came to the local track when they were passing through.
All is just to say that just being around probably the best in the world was a huge advantage for Willie. Learning to beat Greenleaf even sometimes, put Mosconi at the nose bleed level of competition whether he did it by learning from Greenleaf or trying any route that was legal to beat him.
Hu
World championships back in the day were decided in different ways. Often only a handful of players. Sometimes a round robin played including the existing world champion, sometimes all the other competitors battled each other and only one got to contend for the world championship so the people that held the championship might play one match to retain their title.
Also, in years where the championship wasn't contested due to matters large or small like the war to end all wars, generally the title was awarded to the person who had it the year before. You could be declared world champion without picking up a stick!
Greenleaf was the older player, Mosconi the kid. No question who should be teaching who or who should be learning by observation and experience. However, Greenleaf was an alcoholic, deep down into the depths of alcoholism. Greenleaf played great pool drunk or sober but there were times when he couldn't play at all.
I would say that Mosconi learned from Greenleaf but there is also the matter of steel honing steel. If you are in a small town where the best player is a high "C" or low "B" level player, at most you may become a little bit above this player. Very few rise above their competition more than a small degree at best. If your competition is the best in the world, you are struggling to beat that level of competition.
The best cars at the local track were local heroes and the fans thought they were something! These same guys went to the big city and got their rears handed to them at Boot Hill. There was a bigger city less than a hundred and fifty miles from Boot Hill. The guys from Boot hill go to Devil's Bowl, they were back markers just as the small town hero had been at Boot Hill. For the guy at the local track to beat the competition at Devil's Bowl, they had to jump several major levels above the competition they ran against most Saturday nights. Not impossible but not likely. Reverse things and a middle of the pack car at Devil's Bowl looked like a god if they came to the local track when they were passing through.
All is just to say that just being around probably the best in the world was a huge advantage for Willie. Learning to beat Greenleaf even sometimes, put Mosconi at the nose bleed level of competition whether he did it by learning from Greenleaf or trying any route that was legal to beat him.
Hu
Love it! I put this discussion in my personal category of "knowing what you don't know," and I damn sure don't know about stuff like this. I do know that for many years I was told never to wear red on TV. For some reason that color shows up bad on television.
I've heard Mike Sigel say the same thing but is it really true? It looks like the championship was played every year during WW2 and I'm 99% sure that Mosconi actually played to win all of his 19 championships. Sadly, Ursitti's database of tournament history is gone, and even the Wayback machine doesn't have it, but you can find bits and pieces of tournament results online. Amazing there doesn't seem to be any website that has the history of tournament results.
From: https://www.poolroom.com/legendary-players/
He entered his first major tournament in 1937 and won the world pocket billiards championship in league play in 1941 and in tournament play the following year. After losing the championship in a match with Andrew Ponzi in 1943, he regained the title by beating Ponzi in 1944 and held it until 1946, when Irving Crane won a world championship tournament.
Mosconi reclaimed the championship by beating Crane in a 1947 match. From 1950 through 1953 and in 1956 and 1957, Mosconi won annual tournaments to become world champion. He retired from competition after suffering a stroke in 1957.
I'm fairly certain that several of Mosconi's "World Championships" were won by defending/defeating a single player in a long challenge match. Bob Jewett probably has the actual stats on this.
Seems they did make a distinction between "winning" a title vs "defending" one. In either event, that is a far cry from simply being named the champ without even playing. I haven't seen where in straight pool that actually happened. I still can't believe Ursitti's database is gone. I recall looking through Mosconi's championships years ago and he actually played to win. Maybe a couple of Greenleaf's were in name only???
Source????
thats like saying one in four people will win the pool tournament, when there are only 4 players.
you dont have to win me over with that one.
i hope it came across as funny.
Even if it was true, so what? Aiming purposely off center (the supposed solution) only means you'll be missing that new target just as frequently and with the same consequences.
pj
chgo
I found this source also but didn't use it because it does not specifically show that Mosconi actually played an opponent for each of his 19 titles. I do recall looking at Ursitti's records where mention of each title match was given, proving that he did not earn any title without actually playing.
Well whatever. Spreading misinformation isn't cool, though.