Definition of Professional Pool Player

[JAM]

Do pool players that file as a pro player have to pay all their own social security taxes? Johnnyt

Absolutely, they do. It really sucks a big weenie. They are considerd self-employed. In fact, they are prone to getting audited because of the excessive amount of writeoffs. Nobody would believe it, unless they see it with their own eyes, the expenses associated with attending a pool tournament.

The AzBilliards player earnings, unfortunately, is not as accurate as some may think. Though they record what earnings are reported to this website via news articles, there is other income that professional pool players receive that is not readily available to AzBilliards, nor should it be either.

For instance, the delayed payments of the IPT were made last year. Though there was not an IPT tournament last year, each one of those IPT members who recieved those payments got a 1099 from the IPT. It is considered income for 2007 tax year.

As well, there are quite a few tournaments that players compete in whose earnings are not reported to websites.

Of course, then you have exhibition fees, lessons income, et cetera, that some professional receive as income, which is not accounted for by AzBillards, and again, nor should it be.

What a professional pool player earns is truly nobody's business, IMHO.

JAM

 

[DaveK]

As noted, this topic has been discussed at length quite often here. In broader terms, the discussion has been going on for a lot longer. Here is an interesting little discussion on this exact topic, the link is to a 1913 article, but the discussions started at least 100 years earlier.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9507E1DC1E3BE633A25755C2A9669D946296D6CF

I feel that each specific game/sport needs a proper definition enforced by the accepted governing body. It is an interesting exercise to read the definition of a Professional and an Amateur in terms of golf, from the R&A, RCGA, and USGA, as one example. Interestingly enough, they tend to determine a professional by who is not an amateur. This is the way I understand the whole concept began, as a method of keeping 'ringers' ("professionals") away from a gentlemanly contest. Here is a link :

http://www.usga.org/playing/amateur_status/amateur_status.html

Dave

 

[Dartman]

Then those pool pro tours should have the definition. No speculation necessary.

I'd think each sanctioning organization, regardless of sport, determines the criteria for "pro" designation.
i.e. the Arachnid Darts Tour uses tournament finish yet they also recognize achievment from other darts organizations like the ADO. http://www.bullshooter.com/prolist.php

Here's a snippet from pokertips.org
So how does a professional become a professional?
Professional poker players do not graduate from Poker Pro School, and there is also no guild that bestows the "pro" status on players. It is entirely a label that one adopts for himself. Even some people who lose money at poker consider themselves professionals.

Interesting thread.

 

[corvette1340]

Everybody is a professional something; If they support themselves. I am a professional CPA, that's what pays the bills. It's eat what you kill on a daily basis. If you support yourself you are a professional whatever. If you support yourself playing pool, touring, gambling, lessons, books, tapes DVD's; buying a room as a player. You are a professional pool player. Until you support yourself you are an aspiring pro, that's where the day job comes in.

so, if you don't support yourself and just lay around in someone elses domicile all day but you might play in a tournament here or there then you are not a professional, correct?

 

[mullyman]

In Japan it's easy enough to define. If you want to become a pro you have to take a test, written and on the table. If you pass the test you get a license. Simple as that.
MULLY
should be like that everywhere

 

[SpiderWebComm]

My source is AZBilliards.com. Real nice website, full of archived information and a great player finder full of tournament winnings.

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2008.cfm?playernum=844

and actually, I misquoted my source. I apologize for that. Let me correct what I said.

Sigel won $13K in 2006, Zero in 2007. Zero in 2008

So for 1 1/2 years, he has won Zero playing Professional Pool.

And obviously, a player can win $$$ on the tournament trail but if they are winning $$$ in tournaments that are not Pro Events, would they still be considered a Pro? What is the cutoff? Do weekly bar tournaments count? Handicapped tournaments? Does the BCA Vegas tournaments count? (if the BCA Vegas tournaments count, then I am more of a Pro than Mike Sigel the past 2 years - actually, my opinion - Mike Sigel is no longer a Pro Player)

This is a good conversation. Interesting. I don't really think there is a clear path from amateur to pro in billiards like golf. There are clear amateur players who play in local tourneys, there are clear amateur players who play in regional tour events that also feature pro-players (who may even cash), there are clear amateurs who play in open professional events (US-OPEN), and finally there are pros who play in local amateur, regional tour and open-pro events.

Therefore, the definition of a "pro" player is cryptic. Until there is one governing body who tracks ranking from all regional and national open events, it's tough to define.

One thing is FOR SURE, you can't go from PRO to NON-PRO regardless of what you've done lately.

One thing is FOR SURE... Mike Sigel is a PROOOOOOOOOO (how many WORLD championships does he have)? Can't go from being a World Champion to a non-pro, ever. Many people don't realize the speed difference between a bottom pro and a top pro (someone like Efren, Busty or SVB).

I'm not saying Sigel will beat the world with a little practice, but within a short-period of practice I think he could compete with anyone and beat a good % of the field pretty regularly. His stroke is so refined, it wouldn't take long.

 

[9 on the snap]

so, if you don't support yourself and just lay around in someone elses domicile all day but you might play in a tournament here or there then you are not a professional, correct?

It depends on how much you win in the tournaments. If it's not as much as the market value of the room and board you receive for free, then no I wouldn't consider you a professional pool player. It also depends on your past. If you have acheived in the past, and supported yourself as a pro, then you are still a pro. Once a pro ALWAYS a pro in my mind. I don't think there is such a thing as a "former pro". That is a great question though.

 

[watchez]

It depends on how much you win in the tournaments. If it's not as much as the market value of the room and board you receive for free, then no I wouldn't consider you a professional pool player. It also depends on your past. If you have acheived in the past, and supported yourself as a pro, then you are still a pro. Once a pro ALWAYS a pro in my mind. I don't think there is such a thing as a "former pro". That is a great question though.

There has to be a 'former pro'. I disagree with you and Spiderweb.

Just like baseball - you have former professional player Barry Bonds. Even if Barry becomes the next manager of the Yankees, does exhibitions hitting home runs at little league games, or gives lessons at his local YMCA tee ball league - he is now a former professional major league player. Michael Jordan is a former professional basketball player. Jack Nicklaus is a former professional golfer. Muhammed Ali is a former professional boxer. Just like Mike Sigel, who has not entered a tournament in 2 years is a former professional pool player. If Mike starts to make his living doing exhibitions or giving lessons, then he can consider himself a professional exhibitor or professional teacher. His playing 'speed', either what was or what is has nothing to do with it. It is what he is doing now - which is not entering PROFESSIONAL Pool Tournaments so he cannot be a PROFESSIONAL. When he steps up and enters a PROFESSIONAL tournament, then he would be given the ability to declare himself a PROFESSIONAL pool player again based on his past credentials.

If I was a police officer and don't go to work for 2 years, am I still a cop? NO I could have had the best arrest record in the department, able to still shoot my gun and hit bullseyes from 200 yards but I am still retired and you cannot call me a police officer.

 

[9 on the snap]

There has to be a 'former pro'. I disagree with you and Spiderweb.

Just like baseball - you have former professional player Barry Bonds. Even if Barry becomes the next manager of the Yankees, does exhibitions hitting home runs at little league games, or gives lessons at his local YMCA tee ball league - he is now a former professional major league player. Michael Jordan is a former professional basketball player. Jack Nicklaus is a former professional golfer. Muhammed Ali is a former professional boxer. Just like Mike Sigel, who has not entered a tournament in 2 years is a former professional pool player. If Mike starts to make his living doing exhibitions or giving lessons, then he can consider himself a professional exhibitor or professional teacher. His playing 'speed', either what was or what is has nothing to do with it. It is what he is doing now - which is not entering PROFESSIONAL Pool Tournaments so he cannot be a PROFESSIONAL. When he steps up and enters a PROFESSIONAL tournament, then he would be given the ability to declare himself a PROFESSIONAL pool player again based on his past credentials.

If I was a police officer and don't go to work for 2 years, am I still a cop? NO I could have had the best arrest record in the department, able to still shoot my gun and hit bullseyes from 200 yards but I am still retired and you cannot call me a police officer.

I certainly see your point, but I respectfully disagree. It's like when you were the heavyweight champion of the world. People still call you "champ" even after you retire. If you were the president, they still call you Mr. President, even if you're Jimmy Carter. If you were Governor of a state, or speaker of the house, It's still Gov, or Mr. Speaker, even after you leave office or retire. If you can hit bullseyes with a pistol from 200 yards I will call you whatever you want, and that's the truth.

 

[lodini]

As noted, this topic has been discussed at length quite often here. In broader terms, the discussion has been going on for a lot longer. Here is an interesting little discussion on this exact topic, the link is to a 1913 article, but the discussions started at least 100 years earlier.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9507E1DC1E3BE633A25755C2A9669D946296D6CF

I feel that each specific game/sport needs a proper definition enforced by the accepted governing body. It is an interesting exercise to read the definition of a Professional and an Amateur in terms of golf, from the R&A, RCGA, and USGA, as one example. Interestingly enough, they tend to determine a professional by who is not an amateur. This is the way I understand the whole concept began, as a method of keeping 'ringers' ("professionals") away from a gentlemanly contest. Here is a link :

http://www.usga.org/playing/amateur_status/amateur_status.html

Dave

If you really want to get technical, this discussion started as early as the first Olympics... when the purpose was to keep "professional" athletes (the ones who made money at their sport) out of participation. The Olympics was supposed to be an "amatuer" only event.

 

[lodini]

There has to be a 'former pro'. I disagree with you and Spiderweb.

Just like baseball - you have former professional player Barry Bonds. Even if Barry becomes the next manager of the Yankees, does exhibitions hitting home runs at little league games, or gives lessons at his local YMCA tee ball league - he is now a former professional major league player. Michael Jordan is a former professional basketball player. Jack Nicklaus is a former professional golfer. Muhammed Ali is a former professional boxer. Just like Mike Sigel, who has not entered a tournament in 2 years is a former professional pool player. If Mike starts to make his living doing exhibitions or giving lessons, then he can consider himself a professional exhibitor or professional teacher. His playing 'speed', either what was or what is has nothing to do with it. It is what he is doing now - which is not entering PROFESSIONAL Pool Tournaments so he cannot be a PROFESSIONAL. When he steps up and enters a PROFESSIONAL tournament, then he would be given the ability to declare himself a PROFESSIONAL pool player again based on his past credentials.

If I was a police officer and don't go to work for 2 years, am I still a cop? NO I could have had the best arrest record in the department, able to still shoot my gun and hit bullseyes from 200 yards but I am still retired and you cannot call me a police officer.

I agree 100% on the "former pro" issue... there's a guy in my office who does scouting and Community Affairs and he used to be a professional basketball player... and now refers to himself as a "Former Professional Basketball Player".

 

[cigardave]

In the world of pool, I believe that the common use of the word "pro" is mostly based on the player's level of competition being the highest attainable... and the player regularly competes in nationally or internationally staged events (i.e., tournaments and one-on-one matches that are televised/video-taped for later distribution)... and if one competes in these events with a reasonable degree of success... then I would consider these players as "pro"s. If they used to do this, then I would refer to them as "former pro"s.

My definition would not include regional-only players, even if they don't have day jobs... and would not include road players provided that they don't compete regularly in the staged events I listed above.

 

[juegabillar]

Sometimes Az Billiards does not inform/keep or have record of all tournament winnings, therefore it should not be the sole source of information about winnings.

 

[watchez]

In the world of pool, I believe that the common use of the word "pro" is mostly based on the player's level of competition being the highest attainable... and the player regularly competes in nationally or internationally staged events (i.e., tournaments and one-on-one matches that are televised/video-taped for later distribution)... and if one competes in these events with a reasonable degree of success... then I would consider these players as "pro"s. If they used to do this, then I would refer to them as "former pro"s.

My definition would not include regional-only players, even if they don't have day jobs... and would not include road players provided that they don't compete regularly in the staged events I listed above.

Tap Tap Dave. Well said.

 

[JAM]

Sometimes Az Billiards does not inform/keep or have record of all tournament winnings, therefore it should not be the sole source of information about winnings.

Spoken by someone in the know!

It is a shame that some of the forum members go out of their way to rip apart professional pool players. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this thread was started by Watchez.

JAM

 

[ironman]

I was wondering what everyone's definition of a Professional Pool Player is?

Is it the 'speed' the person plays?

Is it the amount of money the person earns playing pool?

Or % of yearly income they make playing pool?

If you haven't played in a Pro event in a period of time, are you still considered a Professional Pool Player?

If you are retired from pool, would you still be a Professional Pool Player or simply retired?

If you cash in one Pro Event, are you now a Pro?

If you have a sponsor, are you automatically now considered a Pro?

A person who plays pool professionaly is a pro in my book.

 

[JAM]

A person who plays pool professionaly is a pro in my book.

Of course, they are. If you look at the timing of this thread and a post I made in the Fatboy missing money thread, you will realize Watchez is once again trying to antagonize me by ridiculing my boyfriend because I dared to call him an "American professional player."

I am so sick of these damn forum games. Watchez, you and I have a previous history, and after all the nasty things you have said about Keith, I hope we never meet you in person. I really mean that. You make me sick.

JAM

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I disagree with former pro in pool. Reason being - you don't lose your ability to run balls as much as you do hitting a fast ball and running around bases (when you weigh 50 lbs heavier).

Meaning, with a little practice, Sigel can break many other pros in long sessions whereas Howie Long wouldn't be very competitive in the NFL today no matter how much he practiced. You can't compare golf, nba, nfl and nhl to billiards - it's just not the same. It's not as physically exerting, period. What about Tom Vanover? He's probably up there in age and you don't read about him anymore. Anyone care to play him at some 9-ball and find out if he's not a pro?

According to your definition of "pro" - my local golf pro would be on tour. In reality, he couldn't beat a drum for the cash if his life depended on it.

It's cool that we all have opinions, that's what this board is all about. Sigel is a PLAYER at a REALLY high level regardless of how much he won in the last 24 months. He's going to smash in everyone but the very elite in 14.1 in the long-run, and beat many of the other "non-elite" pro players in 9-ball as well.

I think you have to define pro as their ability to compete at a pro level - and Sigel can, at every game--- even now. Man, how quickly people lose respect for someone when they don't read about them every day.

EDIT: Give Sigel a month to pop some balls around and then pick someone out of the top 50 in the world who is still considered a "pro" by your definition and have them play an all-around and see what happens.

 

[ironman]

In Japan it's easy enough to define. If you want to become a pro you have to take a test, written and on the table. If you pass the test you get a license. Simple as that.
MULLY
should be like that everywhere

I took a pee test once that I had 4 days to study for. I still flunked it.

 

[ironman]

How do you know what Mike Sigel has won playing pool in 2008? What is your source to reflect a pool player's income?

I can assure you that there are many sources of a pool player's income that they win professionally on the tournament trail that never get recorded.

JAM

I wonder what he earned when he entered the IPT Witness Protection Program???