# Diamond Systems

#### dougster26

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are numerous diamond and numbering systems. Has anyone ever seen or does anything exists which explains all of the different types in a book along with an explanation of the numbering for that system.

Not only are there systems for hitting an object ball on or close to a rail but there are numbering systems for hitting the object ball when it is a diamond or two out from the rail. Every once in awhile I'll stumble onto a system that I was unaware of and say to myself, "so that's how you do that".

It would really be nice if there was a resource that included all of these different types of systems , that exist, in one book.

#### Busboy

##### Wanna Play Some?
Silver Member
There are numerous diamond and numbering systems. Has anyone ever seen or does anything exists which explains all of the different types in a book along with an explanation of the numbering for that system.

Not only are there systems for hitting an object ball on or close to a rail but there are numbering systems for hitting the object ball when it is a diamond or two out from the rail. Every once in awhile I'll stumble onto a system that I was unaware of and say to myself, "so that's how you do that".

It would really be nice if there was a resource that included all of these different types of systems , that exist, in one book.

Yea I use the zero x system my self works great

#### Johnnyt

##### Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Diamond systems are great for heated tables. Johnnyt

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
There are numerous diamond and numbering systems. Has anyone ever seen or does anything exists which explains all of the different types in a book along with an explanation of the numbering for that system.
Most of the commonly used "diamond systems" are documented (in instructional articles) and demonstrated (in online videos) here:

bank and kick shot diamond system resource page

If you are interested in instructional DVDs that cover them in great details with lots of examples, I recommend the following:

Disc III of How to Aim Pool Shots (HAPS)
Disc IV of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots (VEPS)
Disc IV of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Practice (VEPP)

Not only are there systems for hitting an object ball on or close to a rail but there are numbering systems for hitting the object ball when it is a diamond or two out from the rail. Every once in awhile I'll stumble onto a system that I was unaware of and say to myself, "so that's how you do that".
There are also useful visual and measurement systems for doing this that don't require numbers or calculations. Here are some examples:

NV D.13 - Kick Shot Aiming Systems - from Vol-III of the Billiard University instructional DVD series
NV E.7 - Mirror Kick-Shot Aiming System, from HAPS III

Enjoy,
Dave

#### playdoubles

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kicking

I can send you a PDF with 29 sites of diamond systems...

Best, Chris

#### number13cfan

##### Banned
Maybe you should pose this question in the Carom section of the forum.

Three Cushion players use and have far more so called, Diamond systems on a regular basis than pool players do.

Just a thought.

Number13cfan

#### jmurphy

##### SWEET
Silver Member
ZeroX works very well

#### Old Nine Baller

##### Banned
There are numerous diamond and numbering systems. Has anyone ever seen or does anything exists which explains all of the different types in a book along with an explanation of the numbering for that system.

Not only are there systems for hitting an object ball on or close to a rail but there are numbering systems for hitting the object ball when it is a diamond or two out from the rail. Every once in awhile I'll stumble onto a system that I was unaware of and say to myself, "so that's how you do that".

It would really be nice if there was a resource that included all of these different types of systems , that exist, in one book.
Many of the Diamond Systems that have been created for 3 Cushion players are well-suited for a 10' table but they come up shorter on a 9' table. Be aware of this.

ONB

#### number13cfan

##### Banned
Many of the Diamond Systems that have been created for 3 Cushion players are well-suited for a 10' table but they come up shorter on a 9' table. Be aware of this.

ONB

I hate to disagree, but, it's not the length of the tables that matters. It's the type of rubber used on Billiard tables compared to Pool tables.

Number13cfan

#### Pidge

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I hate to disagree, but, it's not the length of the tables that matters. It's the type of rubber used on Billiard tables compared to Pool tables.

Number13cfan
Yeah, this.

3C tables play totally different. They're lighting fast for a start, the rails react different, the size of the balls make the difference more noticeable also. They're normally heated too which I find makes them more consistent. They play closer to a tv snooker table than they do a standard pool table.

On to systems... If you haven't already buy the zero x kicking video. Its simple and very easy to understand. The presentation is excellent and Tor goes through how to adjust from table to table.

#### Old Nine Baller

##### Banned
Many of the Diamond Systems that have been created for 3 Cushion players are well-suited for a 10' table but they come up shorter on a 9' table. Be aware of this.

ONB

I hate to disagree, but, it's not the length of the tables that matters. It's the type of rubber used on Billiard tables compared to Pool tables.

Number13cfan

Disagree all you want, that doesn't change anything. The farther a ball travels the more time it has to "open up". It's very simple really. A 2' x 4' table would play much shorter then a 6' x 12' table with the same rails. I've played on a 4 1/2' x 9' Billiard table and I don't make a habit of writing things I don't know anything about.

ONB

#### liakos

##### Banned
If you consistently play on quality tables, then get yourself pretty much any quality kicking vids and books! But if you play all over on different equipment then I would highly recommend the professor, Grady Mathews Grady teaches you the basics, it's up to you to learn fast, slow, clean, dirty, humid conditions

Nobody said it's easy good luck

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Walt Harris wrote a 4-volume set called "The Billiard Atlas" (I-IV). Each of the volumes contains perhaps 40 systems plus variations. Here is the table of contents of the first volume:

The explanations are sparse. If you want systems with good explanations, get Robert Byrne's books starting with his "New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards." In the end though, if you don't work with a system under varying conditions you don't really understand it.

#### number13cfan

##### Banned
Disagree all you want, that doesn't change anything. The farther a ball travels the more time it has to "open up". It's very simple really. A 2' x 4' table would play much shorter then a 6' x 12' table with the same rails. I've played on a 4 1/2' x 9' Billiard table and I don't make a habit of writing things I don't know anything about.

ONB

By your analogy, a 6x12 snooker table will play longer than a 5x10 3 cushion table with the same rubber?

Maybe we should have a table mechanic to chime in, and see what their views are on this subject, since they deal with it professionally.

There's a first time for everything, about mistakes.

Number13cfan

#### zpele

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Disagree all you want, that doesn't change anything. The farther a ball travels the more time it has to "open up". It's very simple really. A 2' x 4' table would play much shorter then a 6' x 12' table with the same rails. I've played on a 4 1/2' x 9' Billiard table and I don't make a habit of writing things I don't know anything about.

ONB

The geometry of the angles is the same no matter the size of the table since the ratios of the short rail to the long rail are the same regardless of the size. That being said, bigger tables tend to play 'longer' due to variations in rubber, cloth, level of the table and many other things.

To a casual observer what you are saying tends to be true but it has nothing to do with the size of the table.

#### Poolplaya9

##### Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I hate to disagree, but, it's not the length of the tables that matters. It's the type of rubber used on Billiard tables compared to Pool tables.

Number13cfan

Cushion profile/material can make a difference, as can the type of cloth, whether the table is heated or not, and the type of balls used (particularly the weight difference). The size of the playing surface might make a tiny difference (more room for the spin of the cue ball to alter its path) but it would be very negligible compared to everything else I would think even if so.

#### itsfroze

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cushion profile/material can make a difference, as can the type of cloth, whether the table is heated or not, and the type of balls used (particularly the weight difference). The size of the playing surface might make a tiny difference (more room for the spin of the cue ball to alter its path) but it would be very negligible compared to everything else I would think even if so.

The bigger the table the more room for the cue ball to open the angle before it hits the next rail.
Just like if your off a little on a short shot it may still go, but on a long shot being off the same is a miss.

#### bstroud

##### Deceased
ZeroX works very well

For pool, Zero-X is by far the best.

Bill S.

#### Old Nine Baller

##### Banned
Disagree all you want, that doesn't change anything. The farther a ball travels the more time it has to "open up". It's very simple really. A 2' x 4' table would play much shorter then a 6' x 12' table with the same rails. I've played on a 4 1/2' x 9' Billiard table and I don't make a habit of writing things I don't know anything about.

ONB

The geometry of the angles is the same no matter the size of the table since the ratios of the short rail to the long rail are the same regardless of the size. That being said, bigger tables tend to play 'longer' due to variations in rubber, cloth, level of the table and many other things.

To a casual observer what you are saying tends to be true but it has nothing to do with the size of the table.

You agreed with me and didn't even know it. The geometry of the angles means nothing, the farther a ball travels the more it has time to open up. An extremely small, relatively meaningless difference in "geometry" at the 1st cushion can make a tremendous difference at the 3rd or 4th or 5th rail.

Nice try though.

ONB