Maybe you are just fortunate. I have ripped holes in jeans and t shirts, on Valleys mainly, and it has happened on a GC more than once.
Do you feel that since you have not experienced it, it has never happened to anyone else?
Diamond versus Brunswick
- Thread starter Chalk & Awe
- Start date
Maybe you are just fortunate. I have ripped holes in jeans and t shirts, on Valleys mainly, and it has happened on a GC more than once.
Do you feel that since you have not experienced it, it has never happened to anyone else?
If you play too much you'll run into poorly maintained equipment, it's inevitable. Especially bartable hardware. :thumbup:
What's interesting about the early GC I, they were in Every midwest state college....some union centers had 20.
Before the table is built.....the wood is kiln dried, every piece is either some type of plywood or a solid wood cut and fit together. Each piece of dried wood is combined with others in either groups or layers like butcher block. They must all be faced, then glued then cut and shaped by hand I would think.
I was looking at stripped pedestal ends, there must be 10 cut pieces of wood each side, shaped, glued and fit. Strength does come in numbers, and the feeling of an early GC is unique. Even the early aprons, some had 7 wood layers glued together. Shortly thereafter the next generation of GC's came into the picture.
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that for how rarely it happens it is not a normal or everyday occurrence. I am saying it ain't the table, its the owners/ peoples lack of ability to set it up right or perform needed maintenance.
Trent
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I maintain the Diamond room here in Toledo, Racktime. I also maintain the other 2 rooms that both have GC3's, Miss Cue North and South, I already restored one rooms 9 tables completely and the other 8 are slated for later this year. So really I would not know about this problem and if it came up I know how to fix it: A. Put the table together correctly, B. maintain metal parts on GC's by having all the metal powder coated, anodized or re-plated.
Trent
I'd played on both GC's and Diamond's for years, and I was just very impressed by the Gabriel's table when I played on the one they had set up in their booth at the Super Billiards Expo nearly 20 years ago. I was also impressed that the Thierry Gabriel's, the owner of the company, was on hand and very willing to meet our custom order needs, as he clearly wanted the exposure of getting his tables in some poolrooms in the US. Also, the price at that time was very reasonable for the quality of table, compared to GC's or Diamond's.
What I ended up doing was purchasing one 9-foot Gabriel's Signature Pro table, which I had to drive from NC to a warehouse in Philly to pick up. It likely was the very table they had set up at their SBE booth. We had that table set up in our poolroom for roughly 1 year to see how we liked it, before I made the decision to place an order for 8 more of them directly from the factory in Europe. I was luckily able to get a very good resale price for my 9-foot Connelly Ultimate tables, which cut the price I had to pay for our Gabriel's tables by more than half. I kind of like that we have such a unique table that few other poolrooms have. Some of the design aspects of the Gabriel's tables, particularly the pocket design, was copied by Diamond years ago.
The way Gold Crowns are designed, it is impossible to assemble the skirts and rails so that everything is flush and smooth. Some of the metal will always stick out, due to the design. You can get close, but not perfect.
I hate metal on a table, particularly anywhere a cue may touch. The way I bridge on a rail, Gold Crowns scrape the shaft. I have to elevate the butt a bit to avoid that. As anyone knows, elevating the butt is not preferred. That's on GC2's and 3's. The 4's have more of a curve on the rail, so not as bad. Rail bridges on a GC2 or 3 is a no-go. Pocket liner and metal will just mangle your shaft. On the 4 and newer it is a lot better, but still not good.
Plastic pocket liners and buckets are nasty. Bridging on one and hitting a ball with a medium or firm stroke leaves a plastic streak or film on the shaft.
Leather is superior in this regard. Now, poorly treated leather can leave marks on the balls. But SO CAN PLASTIC. Worse actually. I spent lots of time cleaning plastic impact spots off the balls from the pockets of a GC. All depends on the plastic and the leather. But on average, the leather is better on the balls. It is also gentler on the cue.
There's simply nothing on a Diamond that will damage your cue, or dirty it. Also, you can use a rail bridge on any part of the entire rail surface and pockets on a Diamond and it doesn't slow down, drag, scrape or impede your stroke in anyway.
There's also no metal or the skirt assembly is such to snag or damage clothing.
I hate metal on a table, particularly anywhere a cue may touch. The way I bridge on a rail, Gold Crowns scrape the shaft. I have to elevate the butt a bit to avoid that. As anyone knows, elevating the butt is not preferred. That's on GC2's and 3's. The 4's have more of a curve on the rail, so not as bad. Rail bridges on a GC2 or 3 is a no-go. Pocket liner and metal will just mangle your shaft. On the 4 and newer it is a lot better, but still not good.
Plastic pocket liners and buckets are nasty. Bridging on one and hitting a ball with a medium or firm stroke leaves a plastic streak or film on the shaft.
Leather is superior in this regard. Now, poorly treated leather can leave marks on the balls. But SO CAN PLASTIC. Worse actually. I spent lots of time cleaning plastic impact spots off the balls from the pockets of a GC. All depends on the plastic and the leather. But on average, the leather is better on the balls. It is also gentler on the cue.
There's simply nothing on a Diamond that will damage your cue, or dirty it. Also, you can use a rail bridge on any part of the entire rail surface and pockets on a Diamond and it doesn't slow down, drag, scrape or impede your stroke in anyway.
There's also no metal or the skirt assembly is such to snag or damage clothing.
Again, the 1200lb pool table does not move. You smacking your cue on anything is ALL ON YOU. In fact all of what you have said comes back on the person working on the table.
Someone who does not know what they are doing will make all of the mistakes you mentioned.
As for the pockets, the pockets I use do not use anything that leaves a mark on the balls or cue. Another rookie mistake.
Nothing you have said has anything to do with a properly set up and Maintained Gold Crown.
Just my $0.02, off to work setting up a GC3 with NONE of the problems you mentioned!
Trent from Toledo
Someone who does not know what they are doing will make all of the mistakes you mentioned.
As for the pockets, the pockets I use do not use anything that leaves a mark on the balls or cue. Another rookie mistake.
Nothing you have said has anything to do with a properly set up and Maintained Gold Crown.
Just my $0.02, off to work setting up a GC3 with NONE of the problems you mentioned!
Trent from Toledo
So who is it on when the same sloppy mistake prone players play on a Diamond and none of these atrocities happen....Diamond designers?
Diamond copied Gabriel's pocket design ?
Wasn't Gabriel caught copying Diamond's smart table technology ?
First time I saw Gabriel's was at the Gabriel's pool tournament in Vegas. Efren beat Feijen in the finals and handed me his trophy.
I still have it .
I talked to Morro Paez during the tournament . He said the table played really easy. I told him the corners look like 4 1/2 to me. He said yes but the pockets played very generous.
I always love reading these posts. They make me laugh. Some people just have such strong beliefs and opinions. The way I see it, Diamond or Gold Crown are my two choices for a 9' table. Neither table is made without faults. Neither table plays identical. Guess what, it's because they are different. Both tables have had improvements made to them throughout their manufacturing life. Sometimes change is good. Change usually means they care about their product, or they are trying to make their product cheaper.
Weigh out the pros and cons and pick which one you like best. For me, it's Diamond. Why? I like the pockets, the built in leveling system, the deeper slate shelf, and the pocket cut. I think the Diamond plays a little harder and I like that too. But what I like mostly (from a table mechanic's perspective), is that the Diamond is so much easier to work on. Everything goes back together just as its supposed to.
No matter which table you go with, if properly set up, you will have a great playing pool table that will last a lifetime. Enjoy!
Weigh out the pros and cons and pick which one you like best. For me, it's Diamond. Why? I like the pockets, the built in leveling system, the deeper slate shelf, and the pocket cut. I think the Diamond plays a little harder and I like that too. But what I like mostly (from a table mechanic's perspective), is that the Diamond is so much easier to work on. Everything goes back together just as its supposed to.
No matter which table you go with, if properly set up, you will have a great playing pool table that will last a lifetime. Enjoy!
FYI, Gabriel's has been making carom and pool tables for 85 years, Diamond just over 30 years.
You should really get your facts straight first so you don't get accused of telling lies! Gabriel wasn't building pocket pool tables in 1987 when Diamond started in business, AND Diamond sold 100 Diamonds to Gabriel's back then, and then Gabriel's started to copy Diamonds pocket design!!!
From what I've heard from experienced mechanics, taking the rail system and pocket corners off of a Diamond Smart table is such a time consuming pain that most mechanics actually prefer to keep the entire rail system together and just flip it over to re-cover the rails while all still attached together, which saves greatly on time. I'm guessing unless you've done hundreds of them that way, that would be a little tricky to do.
Experienced mechanics take the rail blinds off and remove the pockets, BECAUSE the rail cloth MUST tuck in behind the pocket liners....only hacks try recovering the Diamond rails without removing the pockets first. If you want the truth about the pocket design, and who copied who, call Greg Sullivan directly 812-989-6665
I'm no expert like you, but the hard plastic pocket liner material Gabriel's used and still uses on their designs seems to work better to me than the leather pocket liners Diamond uses - which need replacing periodically when used in a commercial setting and FYI, the plastic liners Gabriel's uses does not discolor cues Also, the deep Gabriel's pockets which hold an entire set of balls is hard to beat. If Gabriel's did copy Diamond's pockets, at least they did it right. Seems if that was the case, why did they get away with it and why did Diamond become Gabriel's US distributor for a number of years?
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Interesting looking table -- Gabriels Gryffon: https://gabrielsbilliards.com/home-default/gryffon/
[looks like lots of aluminum]
[looks like lots of aluminum]
I dont wanna hear that, if you smack the edge of a Diamond table with your cue, there will be a dent, butt or shaft.... You can hit Diamond wood with a HAMMER.....
Even with the other wood rails.... there will still be a dent, as bad, maybe not....
I play on both and dont have that problem.
RKC HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!~!
THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE TAKEN APART!!! Diamonds and Gold Crowns. The guy who used to recover this room I maintain did the same crap, all the casting inserts had to be replaced, bent castings is another issue. Plus it is just retarded to do it that way, have seen a staple under the rail cloth, loose cloth. I take them apart every time....
Trent from Toledo
I spent an hour talking to Greg Sullivan at a tournament years ago. First of all, very nice guy. Wish more people in the billiards world were like him. Second of all, very knowledgeable.
Yes, he promotes Diamond as the best, but he backs everything he says with facts or demonstration. I asked detailed questions most players wouldn't think to ask.
People don't understand Diamond. These tables were designed and built to be the best playing, most consistent, longest lasting, for players AND pool room owners.
What gives? Price. They aren't cheap. Then again, when you look at inferior options offered by direct competitors charging MORE...not such a bad value. What else gives? Aesthetics. But this is in the eye of the beholder. Many of us are used to the looks of the GC.
Yes, he promotes Diamond as the best, but he backs everything he says with facts or demonstration. I asked detailed questions most players wouldn't think to ask.
People don't understand Diamond. These tables were designed and built to be the best playing, most consistent, longest lasting, for players AND pool room owners.
What gives? Price. They aren't cheap. Then again, when you look at inferior options offered by direct competitors charging MORE...not such a bad value. What else gives? Aesthetics. But this is in the eye of the beholder. Many of us are used to the looks of the GC.
And, as already mentioned, the Diamond Professional (rather than the Pro-Am or Smart Table) doesn't have that problem (to many people).
This post I agree with.
Almost everything good that has happened to me in the billiard world has happened on a
Brunswick Gold Crown, Anniversary, or a Monarch.
...but that doesn’t make me blind to their faults.
The designers who felt raised name plates, score counters, and even pocket ashtrays were ok
were not players....Greg Sullivan got rid of those stupid things...and made it so you could
make a good bridge anywhere on the table....Brunswick re-designed somewhat AFTER
Greg put the Diamond on the market....but they didn’t go far enough.
I would love the Gabriels if they had Diamond pockets.
I would like to see the snooker world use it too....instead of bridging on your fingertips.
If you think there are better pockets around....show me some better than this...
