"Diamondizing" A Table Thread

We don't have not even one Diamond table in Croatia. RKC can u donate 1 so we can compare with other tables? ;)
 
peter_gunn said:
We don't have not even one Diamond table in Croatia. RKC can u donate 1 so we can compare with other tables? ;)
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Instead of donating one, how about buying me a round trip ticket to your country...and maybe I'll come over and spend a month or so over there showing you how to rebuild some tables to play like championship tables should play...you do have power tools over there...don't you?:grin:..j/k:grin:
 
Elwood said:
Glenn, when are you going to be in South Jersey so I can upgrade my table with these new rails?
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I'll be in that area about the 8th of Nov or so, but won't have much time until after Jay and I record the DVDs for Simonis...after that, I'll see what I can do...as I have other requests for services up there as well:grin:
 
realkingcobra said:
Instead of donating one, how about buying me a round trip ticket to your country...and maybe I'll come over and spend a month or so over there showing you how to rebuild some tables to play like championship tables should play...you do have power tools over there...don't you?:grin:..j/k:grin:
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We have around 200 9' tables in Croatia :eek: U can rebuild each one of them in the month :D
 
Is making another table really "dimondizing" it or is it kind of like referrring to vacuming as "I am going to hoover the floor"

Are the subrail demensions the same between a diamond and any (other) table....or does each table require specific subrail bevels, thickness, miters, etc etc to be right.

In addition...what is really happening to the (other tables) is that all the underlying demensions are being made exactly the same from rail to rail so that each rail (and pocket) ends up playing exactly the same.....Achieveing those underlying demension properly without destroying the rail is the true art form.

I vote that the process should be called "Corbralated":wink:
 
Hmmmm

First of all I have a Brunswick, but facts is facts. Brunswick has nobody to blame but themselves. Similar story is Mercedes Benz. When they heard Toyota was going to build some "luxury" car division to compete with the best of Germany...not only did they laugh, but actually dared Toyota to "come and get it'....

Well, 20 years later after Toyota launched the Lexus line of vehicles..... they began winning JD Powers top vehicles in almost every class for the last 15 years..... Lexus over took Benz as the top luxury seller in the US., and Benz quality is not even in the top 10 anymore!!

Lexus did it on Quality, Price, and over the top Service!!!. Instead of laughing Benz should have been worried,,,but they just figured their customers would never leave them based on their PAST performance.... I still got my old Benz,,,but buy a new one,,,NEVER !

Diamond is the Lexus of tables now, and Brunswick getting left in the dust....It's a little sad because of the history of Brunswick and all, but they screwed up a fabulous name with world wide name recognition...

RIP Brunswick - We will miss you dear old friend. You had a heck of a run and some fabulous tables and designs in the day. May the Pool God's open the gates of heaven, and forgive your past sins !
 
ChicagoRJ said:
First of all I have a Brunswick, but facts is facts. Brunswick has nobody to blame but themselves. Similar story is Mercedes Benz. When they heard Toyota was going to build some "luxury" car division to compete with the best of Germany...not only did they laugh, but actually dared Toyota to "come and get it'....

Well, 20 years later after Toyota launched the Lexus line of vehicles..... they began winning JD Powers top vehicles in almost every class for the last 15 years..... Lexus over took Benz as the top luxury seller in the US., and Benz quality is not even in the top 10 anymore!!

Lexus did it on Quality, Price, and over the top Service!!!. Instead of laughing Benz should have been worried,,,but they just figured their customers would never leave them based on their PAST performance.... I still got my old Benz,,,but buy a new one,,,NEVER !

Diamond is the Lexus of tables now, and Brunswick getting left in the dust....It's a little sad because of the history of Brunswick and all, but they screwed up a fabulous name with world wide name recognition...

RIP Brunswick - We will miss you dear old friend. You had a heck of a run and some fabulous tables and designs in the day. May the Pool God's open the gates of heaven, and forgive your past sins !
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As I always say, "last years business plan...don't work for this year"...and believe me, Natalie and "Skip & Jan's" is already working on "next years" business plan...."today"...while all the other pool rooms in AZ...are still operating on "last years business plan";)...Brunswick didn't want to hear that there was an uprising company called "Diamond Billiards"...as they just figured they were no different than anyone else building tables....no big deal, but history will teach you one thing for sure....it's not the BIG companies that you have to watch out for...it's the small companies that if you sleep to long...that will become the next BIG company...while you're still trying to figure out what happened...as your stock goes down!

My point is...that this can, and does happen with "Pool Rooms" as well;)

Glen
 
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Jaden said:
However, the self-agrandizement and berating of other mechanics gets old, and you just made my point.

You say that the new tables will ALLOW a grazed rail shot to fall easier than before but still REJECT a well played hard shot.

We both know that a gold crown with tighter face angles and tightened pockets will not reject balls as easily as a diamond if they're hit right, but GC's with wide face angles and looser pockets reject balls almost as easily but in a different way than diamonds. So it's a bit of a misnomer to blame loose GC pockets on their acceptance of well placed hard hit balls.

I haven't played on any new diamonds, when I do, if they don't do the aforementioned things that make me prefer GC's, I will come back on and state as much. IME though, diamonds have rejected well placed hard struck balls and the rails have bounced funny and short and have made things like reverse imparted spin more difficult to do.

Of course, many GC's I've played on have been poorly maintained and or setup wrong and have done the same thing, so it is more a mechanic issue than a table issue.

any table can be made to play well by a good mechanic, but I think that there have been some inherent flaws in the diamonds that I've played on to date that take away from the game.

It's similar to the argument against the measle ball. It eventually comes down to personal preference as to what you prefer, but there are certain designs that lend to certain frailties in ALL table manufacture.

Jaden
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Spot on, and well said.

Dale
 
realkingcobra said:
"Diamond tables have been taking over the tournaments here in the US for many years now, just look at every major tournament held here and ask yourself which tables are being played on. I'm not knocking Brunswick...but Brunswick has failed to evolve with the stricter demands of the pool players today, so much so that they didn't even come out with a tighter pocket by extending the sub-rails until the GC5...and even then it's set at 4 9/16" openings. The GC4 tournament edition used thicker facings in an attempt to tighten the pockets. My buddy Mark Gregory is the table mechanic that designed the GC5 pockets for Brunswick...so I know what I'm talking about here. What somebody did in the past, has nothing to do with what they're doing today. Brunswick LET Diamond get into business 25 years ago...by doing nothing to make their tables play better, in order to stop Diamond from trying to make a better playing table, that's Brunswick's bad business decisions...not Diamond's. This is the very reason Brunswick's resale value is so low, and why Diamond's is so high...it's called customer demand, the more something is wanted...the more it's going to cost. Ever tried looking for a used Diamond 9ft ProAm?...you'll come across 1,000 GC's before one ProAm, and if you FIND that ProAm....it's not going to be priced cheap like a GC."


Ah, yeah, how many GCI and GCII has Brunswick sold since 61'? Millions probably. Of course the market would be flooded with those tables. The majority of those table were played hard....poolhalls, bowling alleys, private clubs, etc. They are built like tanks and with a little care would still play great. Time will tell if the Diamonds can stand up to what Brunswick already did.
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Ah, yeah, how many GCI and GCII has Brunswick sold since 61'? Millions probably. Of course the market would be flooded with those tables. The majority of those table were played hard....poolhalls, bowling alleys, private clubs, etc. They are built like tanks and with a little care would still play great. Time will tell if the Diamonds can stand up to what Brunswick already did.
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I have a well-stored GC II. I wished I just had the Monarch cushions re-glued when I got it redone.
Brunswick really needs to get their cushions made here again imo.
 
wouldnt change

I own seven Gold Crown fives tournment tables and i think they are one of the best playing tables on the market. I had many pros play at my place and they loved the tables.They told me if it was up to them they would still be playing on them in the tournments insteed of the diamonds. so that said if the pros talk that good about the tables thats good enough for me.
 
I love how both tables play (even though i prefer Diamond tables) but when it comes down to it its how the tables are put together. Ive played on Diamond and Brunswick tables that have canyons for pockets and the tightest (4 inches due to Ernesto Domingez) pockets you have ever seen :eek:

When it comes down to it i say shape the table you have to the right specks to how you want it to play.. Not change the entire table to make it another type.
 
khulin said:
I own seven Gold Crown fives tournment tables and i think they are one of the best playing tables on the market. I had many pros play at my place and they loved the tables.They told me if it was up to them they would still be playing on them in the tournments insteed of the diamonds. so that said if the pros talk that good about the tables thats good enough for me.
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That only lasted until the US Open, when they finally got to play on the redesigned Diamond ProAms...NO Brunswick can touch the way they play now....no banking short, no lightning fast cushions any more either:grin:
 
ChicagoRJ said:
First of all I have a Brunswick, but facts is facts. Brunswick has nobody to blame but themselves. Similar story is Mercedes Benz. When they heard Toyota was going to build some "luxury" car division to compete with the best of Germany...not only did they laugh, but actually dared Toyota to "come and get it'....

Well, 20 years later after Toyota launched the Lexus line of vehicles..... they began winning JD Powers top vehicles in almost every class for the last 15 years..... Lexus over took Benz as the top luxury seller in the US., and Benz quality is not even in the top 10 anymore!!

Lexus did it on Quality, Price, and over the top Service!!!. Instead of laughing Benz should have been worried,,,but they just figured their customers would never leave them based on their PAST performance.... I still got my old Benz,,,but buy a new one,,,NEVER !

Diamond is the Lexus of tables now, and Brunswick getting left in the dust....It's a little sad because of the history of Brunswick and all, but they screwed up a fabulous name with world wide name recognition...

RIP Brunswick - We will miss you dear old friend. You had a heck of a run and some fabulous tables and designs in the day. May the Pool God's open the gates of heaven, and forgive your past sins !
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From your lips to Gods ears.

This is the post of the year!!

B-Wick is 100% Chinese which is ok so long as you have good quality control, and I've seen a chinking the QC's armor at B-Wick for the past 36 months. Their product's with the exception of Balls because Saluc makes them everything is suffering, their game room furniture is second rate now. I know its a tough market and costs must be cut, so cut costs and margins too. they are milking the good name B-Wick has taken over 150 years to build and whoring it out in 5 years and its shameful. Their margins are super high(I know the furniture biz-I sold millions in Chinese made furniture every year for 9 years).

I know the numbers, You can buy 8' no-name home tables, real slate beds the whole bit for $300 or less with quantity, put a B-Wick brass name plate on it and it's a $2800 wholesale table to their dealer network(which the lines of are becoming blurred a bit). I do feel for B-Wick its tough out there now but they are running their good name into the ground. They could revamp their dealer network or eliminate it and save the end user alot of $$$ thus making what they sell worth the $$$, My Biz partner paid $9500 installed for a 9' not very fancy home table with a dark stain, you cant get 3 rails up and back on 860 cloth, the table didnt cost B-wick $600, the dealer probably paid arouind $4000-$4500 and sent out 2 knuckle heads to install it. $9500 is shameful for that table. I'm all about making $$$, but not running a American Institution into the ground, that table should have been $4000 delivered on the high-and everyone still would have had a good payday.

and yeahall the new Merc's suck they are solid plastic, I have owned about 10 of them. My 97 S600 2Door coupe not the SL but the big one like the CL now. That car is better made(materials, paint, fit, finsh etc) than either of my Rolls Royces or the Maybach 62 I used to own. Toyota destroyed Mercedes Benz. B-Wick will be falling out of favor fast....
 
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realkingcobra said:
That only lasted until the US Open, when they finally got to play on the redesigned Diamond ProAms...NO Brunswick can touch the way they play now....no banking short, no lightning fast cushions any more either:grin:
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glen is 1000% right here, he "fixed" my diamond, I also have a GC5 at home thats 100% factory, ernesto recovered it last time and leveled it, glen has worked on it as well.


Glen came over 2 weeks ago and re-did the rails on my Diamond that was new in 97, the pockets are a hair over 4", infact Glen what are the dimensions??? anyways to my point its the best playing table I never hit a ball on, no funny big bounces, or fast rails and slow bed cloth-meaning you can freeze your man on the rail, where as before the closest you could get whitey to the end rail playing one hole was about .25", it was 100% impossible to freeze the white ball to the rail, if it touched the rail(you could freeze if it rolled up to the rail and just stopped before touching the rail),

if you touched the rail you leave your man .25 to .50" off the back rail which is BIG in 1P. And irratating when you hit a ball perfectly only to see it touch the old cushion and bounce right off, you cant put the squeeze on them with that junk. Now a well hit ball will freeze or touch the fuzz of the rail cloth and you can squeeze the shit out of who ever your playing.

You would never know it was the same box, its a great one hole table. the same cushions with bigger pockets would be a great banks table.
 
Fatboy said:
glen is 1000% right here, he "fixed" my diamond, I also have a GC5 at home thats 100% factory, ernesto recovered it last time and leveled it, glen has worked on it as well.


Glen came over 2 weeks ago and re-did the rails on my Diamond that was new in 97, the pockets are a hair over 4", infact Glen what are the dimensions??? anyways to my point its the best playing table I never hit a ball on, no funny big bounces, or fast rails and slow bed cloth-meaning you can freeze your man on the rail, where as before the closest you could get whitey to the end rail playing one hole was about .25", it was 100% impossible to freeze the white ball to the rail, if it touched the rail(you could freeze if it rolled up to the rail and just stopped before touching the rail),

if you touched the rail you leave your man .25 to .50" off the back rail which is BIG in 1P. And irratating when you hit a ball perfectly only to see it touch the old cushion and bounce right off, you cant put the squeeze on them with that junk. Now a well hit ball will freeze or touch the fuzz of the rail cloth and you can squeeze the shit out of who ever your playing.

You would never know it was the same box, its a great one hole table. the same cushions with bigger pockets would be a great banks table.
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I feel your excitement. Sounds like an amazing table. Is this at your Vegas house or LA? Hope it's LA, cuz I want to play on it.
Every thing I stated about Brunswick was in reference to the old tables. Centennials, Anniversaries, GCI and GCII, etc. I would rather have a Diamond table than a NEW Brunswick. They obviously are taking the same path as some of the best cue makers from the early 70's....mass produce with cheaper labor and inferior raw materials. Oh, well Brunswick had it's day.
Monte
 
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