"Diamondizing" A Table Thread

Jaden said:
I'm talking about a shallow angle shot that hits the heart of the pocket rattling out, and it DOES happen, all too often on a diamond. The combination of the facing angle with the deep shelves cause it.

It didn't happen as often on that table at dave's place as I've noticed on other diamonds I've played on.

Jaden
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Hi Jaden
Can you be a little more specific about the shot. Maybe put up a diagram. If you do, I can test the shots here and see if it happens as well.

Jim
 
Is it okay to say that table aesthetics also enter in one choosing a table?

I just love the art deco look of the Brunswick Centennial...If my home had the space for a 9' table, that's what I would be on the hunt for...

Diamond may well be the best playing table...but IMO it leaves a bit to be desired in aesthetics. Sorry...
 
gc vs Diamonds

First, Diamonds are made here in the U.S. Brunswicks have not been made here for some time. A friend had all new Brunswicks installed in his rooms and the boxes were all from China, not that you can not have a good playing table from China but I would rather it be made here. We all know the diamond story so I will not bore you with that, but the fact is they are the most consistant tables to play on. The cushions are far superior to GC s, the pockets may be tight but if you hit the ball right the pocket will not spit the ball out like a shimmed GC. I have played on many Brunswicks and for my $ the GC 1 was the best they have gone downhill from that point.Diamonds if anything have improved over the years.If you have the $ sell your GC and buy a Diamond you will be happy and you know that is what you really want anyway.
 
realkingcobra said:
Diamond tables have been taking over the tournaments here in the US for many years now, just look at every major tournament held here and ask yourself which tables are being played on. I'm not knocking Brunswick...but Brunswick has failed to evolve with the stricter demands of the pool players today, so much so that they didn't even come out with a tighter pocket by extending the sub-rails until the GC5...and even then it's set at 4 9/16" openings. The GC4 tournament edition used thicker facings in an attempt to tighten the pockets. My buddy Mark Gregory is the table mechanic that designed the GC5 pockets for Brunswick...so I know what I'm talking about here. What somebody did in the past, has nothing to do with what they're doing today. Brunswick LET Diamond get into business 25 years ago...by doing nothing to make their tables play better, in order to stop Diamond from trying to make a better playing table, that's Brunswick's bad business decisions...not Diamond's. This is the very reason Brunswick's resale value is so low, and why Diamond's is so high...it's called customer demand, the more something is wanted...the more it's going to cost. Ever tried looking for a used Diamond 9ft ProAm?...you'll come across 1,000 GC's before one ProAm, and if you FIND that ProAm....it's not going to be priced cheap like a GC.




First of all, the rails would have to be calibrated to have the exact same thickness at the top edge of the sub-rail where the cushions line up at the down angle bevel, as different thickness rails are going to give you different nose heights of the cushions. I'm not going to give exact numbers, but there is an exact sub-rail thickness that is needed in order to align body of the cushion in proportion to the nose of the cushion when the nose height is set at 1 7/16"...and Brunswick rails are missing the sub-rail thickness mark by a mile, which effects the play of the cushions and the alignment of the nose of the cushions.

Then the cushions would have to be replaced with the Artemis Intercontinental K55 cushions, because these are the only cushions made that'll cross breed the table with the banking of a billiards table...with pockets. I can not describe how a table plays when this is done right....other than to call it a billiards table with pockets....it's something you have to see for yourself.

Then the pocket miters have to be corrected to 141 degrees, because with the 4 1/2" pockets, you want the pocket angles to deflect the balls being pocketed at pocket speed a little deeper in the jaws of the pocket instead of rattling the balls out if they're hit good. Some people would believe that making the pocket angles parallel to each other then tightening the pockets to 4" makes them play harder...wrong answer, as all that does is make the target smaller...but have a straight hallway so to speak for the balls to shoot right through, meaning either you're in...or your out....because there is no rattle of the pocket...so in that case, you have to focus all your attention on the smaller target if you don't want to miss the shot...and shoot your next shot basically from where you land the cue ball....because to combine position play with 4" pockets...is a stroke of luck in most cases.




Depending on the rails and the condition they're in, plus cushions, cloth, leveling the slates...and fixing any thing else that can be fixed...like the frame rails on your GC4 from sagging...in the neighbor hood of about $1,500 to $2,000. It can take anywhere from 2 days...to a week, and yes...I always do my work at the customers home.



Better and different....wouldn't that be about the same, because if the table played better than any table you've ever played on...wouldn't that be different?

Glen
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Reality check.

Diamond 'took over' tournaments because they were a sponsor of
tournaments/tours.

For those who are unaware - Brunswick basically walked away from pool
almost 60 yeas ago. There was a time when professional pool was totally
supported by Brunswick. You couldn't be recognized as a world champion
unless you won a tournament played on Brunswick tables.
That's how completely they controlled the professional game. It was done for
advertising value, same as all those exhibitions they also funded.

Once they figured out they were no longer promoting enough revenue,
both activities were dropped - never to return. Sad days.

Dale
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Matt Stockman said:
u12armresl said:
How could you say that it will make him a much better player.
That is just absurd.

You're right, its not going to teach him proper fundamentals or improve his existing fundamentals, but it is going to improve his concentration & pattern play. Tighter tougher playing pockets will also force him to improve his accuracy.

I see you're a brunswick fan, hey, so am I. I love my GC. It's not set up perfectly, but its still a great table. I fell in love with these table playing on them at Chris's in Chicago, and this will be the last table I ever own.
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How does adjusting the size of the pockets or the rails for that matter, improve concentration or patterns. This makes absolutely no sense. I can agree that it is tougher to run a rack on a new Diamond, but improve patterns or concentration?

Please elaborate. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
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it's a matter of adjusting to difference not better or worse...

cbaumann212 said:
Matt Stockman said:
How does adjusting the size of the pockets or the rails for that matter, improve concentration or patterns. This makes absolutely no sense. I can agree that it is tougher to run a rack on a new Diamond, but improve patterns or concentration?

Please elaborate. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
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some people are better on one or the other and some can adjust to either better than others.

The rails bounce different on a diamond than a gold crown, the pockets play different, different even than a shimmed or extended gold crown and you have to learn to play on both and learn how you have to play differently on each to be able to adjust automatically.

Neither is better or worse overall except as an individual preference, but either one is easier or harder in different aspects and causes you to choose different ways of playing on each.

Jaden
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DrCue'sProtege said:
p.s. just my luck, five minutes after i posted my original post last night a Crown fell off. no, not a Gold Crown, but rather a dental crown. thought those things were supposed to stay on forever?
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now you can get your dental Crowns Diamondized , too !


BLINGBLING ! ! !
 
It doesn't improve anything, if it did you'd have heard about it by now.

cbaumann212 said:
Matt Stockman said:
How does adjusting the size of the pockets or the rails for that matter, improve concentration or patterns. This makes absolutely no sense. I can agree that it is tougher to run a rack on a new Diamond, but improve patterns or concentration?

Please elaborate. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
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pdcue said:
realkingcobra said:
Reality check.

Diamond 'took over' tournaments because they were a sponsor of
tournaments/tours.

For those who are unaware - Brunswick basically walked away from pool
almost 60 yeas ago. There was a time when professional pool was totally
supported by Brunswick. You couldn't be recognized as a world champion
unless you won a tournament played on Brunswick tables.
That's how completely they controlled the professional game. It was done for
advertising value, same as all those exhibitions they also funded.

Once they figured out they were no longer promoting enough revenue,
both activities were dropped - never to return. Sad days.

Dale
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Who cares about what Brunswick did 60 years ago?...Look, if you want to be known today for building the best commercial tables...you'd better be looking in 2 directions....(1)...look in the direction of promoting your product...tournaments are the best way...because people actually get to play on them...unlike in a show room.

(2)....you'd also better be looking at who's knocking on your back door to see who's in the fast lane and going to pass you by if you get caught sleeping in a little late....and BRUNSWICK has been over sleeping for years now!

So, don't judge Brunswick today by what they did...use to do...and way back when....because that's in the past. You'd better be asking yourself what has Brunswick done lately, because Diamond is asking themselves everyday...what can we do tomorrow to improve our tables, because is todays improvement enough?

So...don't knock Diamond for taking the initiative to want to build a better table....CALL UP Brunswick...and ask THEM how come they let Diamond pass them up!

Glen
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There are lots of things I find funny. I don't see how what I say doesn't matter to anyone. Quite a few people seem to think what I have to say matters.

I do find it funny the free pass you seem to get with your attitude, language, and demeanor towards others, where other people would be banned. Maybe that puffs your chest out a bit more thinking that you are so good that the forum couldn't make it without you. I know you feel the pool world couldn't make it without you


realkingcobra said:
u12armresl said:
It doesn't improve anything, if it did you'd have heard about it by now.



Don't you kind of find it funny...that no matter what you type...it don't mean shit to anyone else?:grin:
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u12armresl said:
There are lots of things I find funny. I don't see how what I say doesn't matter to anyone. Quite a few people seem to think what I have to say matters.

I do find it funny the free pass you seem to get with your attitude, language, and demeanor towards others, where other people would be banned. Maybe that puffs your chest out a bit more thinking that you are so good that the forum couldn't make it without you. I know you feel the pool world couldn't make it without you




I KNOW that a tighter pocket table will improve your pattern play and shotmaking....I play on a Diamond with 3 13/16" pockets quite routinely and my play on average tables is much higher than before. I am able to maintain focus longer because I MUST play the right angle to get to the next ball because I can not slam the ball into the tight pockets with some crazy english to force shape....Frankly, I play a more beautiful game on a tight table because of the proper angles and more use of center ball....try it some time!!

Secondly, SVB is more used to playing on a Diamond than Mika probably is....Mika is used to playing on that GC they used on TAR in NY.....Shane tortured Mika and the table......his play on a Diamond helped hone his ability to play on a GC....So yes, Diamonds are a tougher table but make you a beter player overall...IMO


Gary
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u12armresl said:
There are lots of things I find funny. I don't see how what I say doesn't matter to anyone. Quite a few people seem to think what I have to say matters.

I do find it funny the free pass you seem to get with your attitude, language, and demeanor towards others, where other people would be banned. Maybe that puffs your chest out a bit more thinking that you are so good that the forum couldn't make it without you. I know you feel the pool world couldn't make it without you
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You must have forgoten to take your pills today...I understand:grin:
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u12armresl said:
There are lots of things I find funny. I don't see how what I say doesn't matter to anyone. Quite a few people seem to think what I have to say matters.

I do find it funny the free pass you seem to get with your attitude, language, and demeanor towards others, where other people would be banned. Maybe that puffs your chest out a bit more thinking that you are so good that the forum couldn't make it without you. I know you feel the pool world couldn't make it without you
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Mr. Wilson jumps me once in a while trust me...but in my defence...I tell him it's the fault of guys like you....who think you know everything about what I do for a living....when in fact...you don't know shit about this part of the industry...in fact...I question if you know anything...about ANYTHING;)...without taking your pills first:grin:

Glen

PS, by the way...what have YOU done lately to help this sport?
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i sure as he~~ hope this thread doesnt turn into an argument or a pi~~ing contest, etc, etc. i started it to learn about the Diamondizing options so, uh, please, lets keep it about that, k?

Glen,
i sent you an email.

Mike
 
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