disgraceful is what it is!!!!

[kano]

Charlie and pool . . . .

I'd have to agree that no one to date can produce pool on TV/Video/DVD better than the people at Accu Stats. I realized that for the first time when I ordered the Efren v. Sigel King of the Hill final from IPT. I have never watched that DVD again. I was so mad the first time I saw it I sent a nasty email to IPT. It's too painful to watch (endless swooping camera angels) and hear ("Half the people in the world think Efren is the best player in the world, and the other half thinks Mike is the best in the world" KT in the booth.) . I have several tapes of the Accu Stats 8 Ball invitational they produced in 2000. IMHO those are the most informative 8Ball videos on planet earth. I can't count how many times I've watched the Reyes v. Bustamante tape listening to Billy Incardona explain how to approach a runout.

From my amateur player/not-in-the-loop point of view, Dragon Promotions seems to be one of the bright spots in Pool as an industry. I see a lot of postings on this site stating the reason Pro Pool sucks is because it can't land sponsors, and can't get on TV, thus the money sucks. Well if that is the reason then Dragon Promotions have done and are doing just that, internationally!!

I live and work in Korea I went to the very first tournament Charlie Williams hosted 4 or so years ago. I think first place was like $500. No TV or any kind of press coverage. At the time I speculated he was just doing something here because he was visiting family or was on the way back from some other bigger event in Asia. But every year he kept coming back, year after year and I noticed first hand the events got bigger and bigger. This November there will be the 3rd Annual Korea Pro Tour, where first prize on the men's side will be $15,000. That is just one of the many events he has on TV here. They've landed Kia Motors among many other major sponsors. How many pool organizers stateside can make any kind of equivalent claim?

I'm not saying that Dragon Promotions is the savior of Pool, I'm sure they have made a lot of mistakes and rubbed some people the wrong way, but it sure looks like they are doing something right! Charlie and his team saw an opportunity in Korea and because of it they have grown exponentially. Who knows how big it will get? Right now Asia in general is ripe for the taking for the growth of Pool, more than any where else in the world.

1. WPC is in Manila again
2. All the events Dragon Promotions are producing in Korea.
3. The level of play in the Philippines and Taiwan (men and women)
4. Manila based Raya Sports who is promoting Worlds's is also putting together an Asia wide (including California) 10-Ball tour with decent money.
5. Guiness 9 Ball Tour, the prize money and number of stops has grown this year.

With respect Grady, you say that Charlie Williams gaining power and influence in pool is the worst thing for pool! Are the only reasons for this very bold statement,

1. He didn't use Accu Stats, and
2. He didn't invite you to his tournament?

If those are the ONLY two reasons then it's pretty weak to support a statement using superlatives.

If there are more behind the scenes personality issues or bad experiences with Charlie and why his promotion company is the worst thing for pool, then can you please inform the rest of us non-in-the-loop pool players as to why?

If you view this as an attack on you then you are missing my point, just would like more elaboration that's all.

v/r

kano

 

[uwate]

Grady have you actually spoken with Pat Fleming on this? Did Pat try to get Dragon Promotions to allow taping at this event and was declined in favor of using Propoolvideo.com?

If Pat had no interest in trying to get his setup over to the tournament, then your out of line calling out Jorge Torres like this when he is the only one who is stepping up to provide coverage of this event.

 

[poolcuemaster]

Well I agree with the professor in the fact that Charlie Williams is a plick.

Leonard

I got the jumper cables in the trunk to get something started

 

[jay helfert]

Hi Grady,

Check out the match, you might enjoy it. DiToro does a pretty good job with the commentary...which is optional, of course.

Thanks for the great interview you gave me at the 2000 US Open.

I hope someday to have the honor of taping one of your matches for my site.

Great job with one camera. You've got the right angle. John Ditoro does a good job of analysis. I didn't know that he knew 14.1 that well. Guess it was the Danny D. influence. Who is that working with him? He has a good clear voice, knows when to talk and seems to know the game also.

 

[JAM]

One must respect Grady's very informed point of view, but mine is that when he produces a tournament, he may dictate how the budget is spent. When Dragon Promotions produces it, they may dictate how that budget is spent.

As for the "Charlie and the UPA" comment, it is uninformed, as Charlie is not at the helm of the UPA anymore and hasn't been for quite a while now.

I read recently where Rodney Morris is now the president, with Frank Alvarez being the player representative.

The UPA, IMHO, was a vehicle that was ridden hard for a few years, and this hard-ridden vehicle provided benefit to only a handful of players, hand-picked players by the person in the driver's seat. The ranking system was not adhered to. Rules were changed willy nilly at the whim of the person in control, and there definitely was not a level playing field.

Today, I hope the UPA, under new leadership, rises again, but I have to agree with Grady Mathews on this one. The damage is already done, and it is no secret who is responsible. After the UPA organization suffered from lack of support, it was then that the captain(s) jumped ship.

That's my story, and I am sticking with it!

JAM

P.S. Furthermore, I definitely recall that Grady was ranked higher on the UPA ranking system at the time the WPC was going to, I think, Calgary (subject to check). However, the captain of the UPA at that time picked another player to go to Calgary who was not ranked as high as Grady. There were MANY players ranked higher than this hand-picked player, according to the UPA ranking system, but the ranking system was not adhered to. This is just one example of the injustices that Grady and other players experienced with the UPA.

Why the BCA gave this newly formed organization with no track record the authority to be the GOVERNING BODY of professional pool is the real question. What a poor choice they made.

 

[JAM]

Grady,

I know that it does sort of hurt that the older players are generally not invited to these invitationals, but that is just the way things work in today's society.

To get more people interested in the game, you have to put young, fresh faces out there. I don't know why, but everyone not "in the know" just prefers watching a younger person showing excellence.

And let's be totally honest. The odds are, a player over 50 is not going to win the tournament. The producers of this tournament are simply choosing young, fresh competitors who look good for the spectators, and who have a decent chance of winning.. Even the also-rans occasionally have a flash of brilliance and perform way above their normal game. Sometimes, putting an undeveloped player in this sort of environment induces them to raise their level of play significantly.. (John Schmidt, anyone? No one knew who he was before he won his first 14.1 Championship)

Grady, please try not to take it so personally. Youth conquers in the end, in all vocations. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. All older people can do is try to find their own place in the big picture, which is what you are doing by opening up your own place and planning future tournaments..

Russ

When pool was enjoying quite a bit of success in the United States, it was because of the old fogies like Willie Mosconi and Minnesota Fats putting on exhibitions around the country. They appeared on The Tonight Show, I've Got a Secret, and many other popular prime-time TV shows. There were exhibitions around the country, Las Vegas, Atlantic City, New York City, you name it. Pool was rising in popularity during this era because of these OLD guys. Mainstream America loved pool because of these OLD guys.

Better not quit your day job of riding that short bus, Russ. Your opinion stinks, and though you're entitled to it, you have no idea what you're talking about on this topic.

JAM

 

[Roy Steffensen]

There were also qualifiers for the World 14-1 Championship

 

[JAM]

You are mistaken. The world championships is by invitation only. I know because I was invited. lol

Please elaborate. Are you stating that you were invited to the 14.1 "World" Championship held in New Jersey?

JAM

 

[JAM]

It's terrible that the so called World Straight Pool event in New Jersey didn't use Pat Fleming and Accu-stats. Pat has paid his dues a hundred fold and he has the best commentators, too. And this was right in his backyard in upstate NJ.
I can't bring myself to watch any of it because I know in advance how bad the commentary will be and I'm still very upset that for the second year in a row no invite for ol Grad'. In my view, it's the worst thing that could happen to pool to have Charlie Williams and the UPA gain in power and influence.

I, for one, am glad that you did not compete in the 14.1 "World" Championship in New Jersey. Why would you even contemplate gracing this event with your appearance?!

I did a poll recently on this forum about WHERE pool enthusiasts enjoyed going to pool events. It is no secret that most pool tournaments today do not have a big audience of spectators. The audience generally consists of pool players and their friends and families, with some locals.

I was surprised to read that it was pool rooms where the readers of this forum who voted on this poll enjoyed seeing pool tournaments. Since most pool events do not attract a big audience, it makes sense why promoters have trouble breaking even. They can't get back their monies invested from the gate. In fact, I recall reading about concern that this recent "world" championship in New Jersey did not break even, and it was stated that it was hoped that the future events would be self-sustaining. In other words, this event was not a money-maker, and "investor(s)" were concerned.

Therefore, build it in South Carolina, Grady, and they will come. You now have the platform to make something happen, and your platform is the pool room. You already have the track record as a pool tournament promoter. I don't think you will have any problems in attracting the masses. Just do it!

JAM

 

[hemicudas]

Lambert & Dotty

I like JAM's idea, Grady. I attended many of Lambert Louvier and Dot's tournaments in Baton Rouge during the 70s. They had a pretty large peanut gallery. Especially when Lambert rented the space next door, yea your POD cast interview reminded me of those good times. I remember vividly Dot was a great cook and the Greenway had great food.

Now, my question to you. Do you know if Lambert and Dot ever made a profit from those great meetings?

 

[Blackjack]

Please elaborate. Are you stating that you were invited to the 14.1 "World" Championship held in New Jersey?

JAM

Jennie,

Yes I was. I am a straight pool player. I was unable to attend due to family and health issues. I was one of the last people called, it was to fill some of the last spots after all of the qualifiers were held, I was unable to attend and somebody else filled that slot. This tournament WAS NOT A UPA EVENT. I don't know why everybody keeps saying that. It was a Randy Goldwater/Joel Shapiro event that was promoted by Dragon Promotions. Contrary to popular belief, I hold no position of power within the UPA or Dragon Promotions. I am adressing that because I received two PM's insiuating that I was invited in on the good ol' boys system. I'm just a pool player in Orlando that can run some high numbers in 14.1 - nothing more, nothing less.

It should be noted that the topic of recording this event was discussed at length in the main forum and in the straight pool forum. There was never a plan to have accu-stats record this event. Randy Goldwater explained this in detail around Fb/March time frame. I spoke personally to Charlie about doing the recording and commentary back in early February, and I also communicated with Randy. This is Randy's event. He did not budget for recording because of problems that occurred the year before witha private company. I don't know the specifics, I just know what Randy has said and what I heard from Charlie about it, which really isn't much. Perhaps Randy will post about it, if he doesn't, that is his right also.

It really pisses me off to hear all of this Charlie bashing on this forum. Did you know that the Charlie bashing is what drove Thorsten Hohmann away from this forum? I think that sucks because the people that bash him usually don't have their facts straight - some do. I wish Thorsten would come back, I think he was great to have on this forum - especially in the straight pool section. I'm sure others will agree.

Charlie does more for pool than anybody I know. He works 25 hour days putting on events here in the USA and in Asia. He literally works his ass off. There are others behind the scenes that work twice as hard as Charlie (Cindy Lee & James West). FTR, they are Dragon Promotions, not the UPA. Charlie made a lot of mistakes early on - I haven't agreed with him on every issue, but I consider him a friend and I have the utmost respect for what he does for our game. He may have his faults, but what he does for pool is done out of his love for the game. Charlie is a do-er, not a talker. He is a man of action and he is not afraid to make tough decisions knowing that others will criticize him for doing so.

FWIW, I was one of the people hoping that Grady would be invited this year, and Grady knows that. The decision was Randy's, not mine - it's his event and he can invite anybody he wants - and I respect that - and I respect and admire Randy for promoting the game of straight pool. I just wish all of this bickering would stop and that people can find a way to work together instead of against each other.

 

[JAM]

Jennie,

Yes I was. I am a straight pool player. I was unable to attend due to family and health issues. I was one of the last people called, it was to fill some of the last spots after all of the qualifiers were held, I was unable to attend and somebody else filled that slot. This tournament WAS NOT A UPA EVENT. I don't know why everybody keeps saying that. It was a Randy Goldwater/Joel Shapiro event that was promoted by Dragon Promotions. Contrary to popular belief, I hold no position of power within the UPA or Dragon Promotions. I am adressing that because I received two PM's insiuating that I was invited in on the good ol' boys system. I'm just a pool player in Orlando that can run some high numbers in 14.1 - nothing more, nothing less.

I do not believe anyone posted in this thread that the 14.1 "World" Championship was a UPA event.

I am sorry for your family and health issues and hope you overcome these difficult times.

It really pisses me off to hear all of this Charlie bashing on this forum. Did you know that the Charlie bashing is what drove Thorsten Hohmann away from this forum? I think that sucks because the people that bash him usually don't have their facts straight - some do. I wish Thorsten would come back, I think he was great to have on this forum - especially in the straight pool section. I'm sure others will agree.

It is an unfortunate happenstance when pool players are in the public light status that they will be discussed in an open pool forum from time to time. I, too, have read some topics which disgusted me personally about pool players that I am close to.

With all due respect to your opinions, to which you are entitled, others may have experienced hardships due to the actions of the UPA. Though you may believe that the UPA is a good organization, then and today, there did not exist a level playing field at one time. It did anger MANY pool players, not just Grady Mathews. Hopefully, the UPA will rise again, but it seems to me that when the going got tough, the person or persons who created these difficulties didn't stick around to FIX it. Now Rodney Morris, et al., are holding the bag, and the ball is in their court. I wish them nothing but success.

Charlie does more for pool than anybody I know. He works 25 hour days putting on events here in the USA and in Asia. He literally works his ass off. There are others behind the scenes that work twice as hard as Charlie (Cindy Lee & James West). FTR, they are Dragon Promotions, not the UPA. Charlie made a lot of mistakes early on - I haven't agreed with him on every issue, but I consider him a friend and I have the utmost respect for what he does for our game. He may have his faults, but what he does for pool is done out of his love for the game. Charlie is a do-er, not a talker. He is a man of action and he is not afraid to make tough decisions knowing that others will criticize him for doing so.

It is wonderful that Charlie Williams and Dragon Promotions are promoting pool around the world, providing pool events for hand-picked players. This is a great vehicle for Charlie to shine.

Unfortunately, in the case of the men's governing body of professional pool, though, this is supposed to be a transparent organization with rules that should be adhered to, a ranking system that is applied to all players, as well as a level playing field. This did not happen, and the record of the UPA speaks for itself.

FWIW, I was one of the people hoping that Grady would be invited this year, and Grady knows that. The decision was Randy's, not mine - it's his event and he can invite anybody he wants - and I respect that - and I respect and admire Randy for promoting the game of straight pool. I just wish all of this bickering would stop and that people can find a way to work together instead of against each other.

You cannot blame Grady or anyone else for feeling bitter when their livelihoods were affected. They joined the UPA in good faith, hoping that this organization would unite pool players with benefit to all. Sadly, this did not happen, though there were a few pool players benefitted from the UPA. And yes, it was a good old boys' club, IMHO, at one time.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

 

[cleary]

First of all, Accustats as a video production company is like a bunch of damn monkeys trying to launch a spaceship. They are a joke. Just horrible, have no idea what they are doing and should find new jobs. They make pool look bad to the whole world on national tv. They kill the sport....rob it of its beauty.

Second off..... Grady, if you wanted to go to the World Straight Pool Championships so damn bad.... you could have qualified for them. I respect you as a player and what you have done in pool but crying on the internet isnt going to help your situation. If you have something to prove, do it on the table not with your mouth.

 

[Blackjack]

JAM

I agree with you entirely. Just FTR, Rodney is the lead player represntative, not the President of the UPA. The other two player representatives are Tony Crosby and Tony Robles D The Two Tonys ). Frank Alvarez has taken over the UPA. I'm sure you would agree that the UPA has 4 really good guys working for them, and that is definitely a plus.

DP is Charlie's company. He promotes events in Korea and here in the US, the only invitational I have seen over here was the 14.1 event - and it had open qualifiers, so anybody could play - if you were invited or if you qualified. I also would like to see an open World Championship where anybody could show up, pay an entry fee, and have a chance to win - absence of politics or even qualifiers for that matter. I don't run a tour, nor do I finance any of the events, so I guess until I do I will have to follow the rules that are set by those that do. Not everybody will agree with what Charlie does, all I ask is that people don't discount his hard work - in much the same way I never discounted the hard work put forth by the IPT staff and Deno Andrews to put on their first class events.

As far as my health goes, its hit or miss from day to day - a lump here and a lump there - awaiting tests and test results - nothing I haven't been through before. If given the chance to hit balls or sit in another doctor's office - I still choose to hit balls every day. I think in a few months I will be ready to start playing in events again as opposed to just showing up, taking pictures and watching from the rail (which btw eats away at my insides). I'm seriously thinking that maybe this is why Forsythe lost his hair. lol.

You and Keith take care.

 

[JAM]

First of all, Accustats as a video production company is like a bunch of damn monkeys trying to launch a spaceship. They are a joke. Just horrible, have no idea what they are doing and should find new jobs. They make pool look bad to the whole world on national tv. They kill the sport....rob it of its beauty.

The above-referenced comments are almost comical and difficult respond to.

Do you know the history of Accu-Stats? If it weren't for Accu-Stats and Pat Fleming, there would not be as good a record of pool in these United States.

In fact, I nominate Pat Fleming into the BCA's Hall of Fame. He has done more for pool than quite a few that are already in BCA's Hall of Fame, IMHO!

Second off..... Grady, if you wanted to go to the World Straight Pool Championships so damn bad.... you could have qualified for them. I respect you as a player and what you have done in pool but crying on the internet isnt going to help your situation. If you have something to prove, do it on the table not with your mouth.

Can you imagine what a slap in the face it is to a player of Grady Mathews' status to see WHO the "invited" players were to this 14.1 pool event? But hey, you're right, those who promoted this event can hand-pick whoever they want to compete in this so-called "world championship." In fact, mabe a few monkeys should have been invited to this event to provide some entertainment for the crowd.

Grady doesn't have to prove a damn thing on any table, Pal. He already has an established track record. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but your comments are in poor taste.

BTW, how old are you? I'm just curious.

JAM

 

[jay helfert]

First of all, Accustats as a video production company is like a bunch of damn monkeys trying to launch a spaceship. They are a joke. Just horrible, have no idea what they are doing and should find new jobs. They make pool look bad to the whole world on national tv. They kill the sport....rob it of its beauty.

Second off..... Grady, if you wanted to go to the World Straight Pool Championships so damn bad.... you could have qualified for them. I respect you as a player and what you have done in pool but crying on the internet isnt going to help your situation. If you have something to prove, do it on the table not with your mouth.

I disagree with you and I suspect I'm not alone, in your condemnation of Accu-Stats. I think they have provided a valuable service to our sport by recording matches that would otherwise be lost to history. So much of the lore of Pool is an oral history due to the fact that no one was around with a camera. Over the last twenty years, Pat Fleming and Accu-Stats have changed all that. We now have a video history of the last generation of pool players.

One reason Efren will remain a legend long after he retires is that fifty years from now, someone will still be able to see how he played. I personally don't like a "knocker" and that is exactly what you are, all offense intended. If you think you can do better, go get your cameras and crew and have at it. That's what Theactionreport and Propoolvideo have done. Rather than complain about the events not being covered, they got off their asses and did something. What have you done other than criticize Accu-Stats? What are your credentials, other than a big mouth? How would you do it any better? I'd like to know.

 

[Blackjack]

First of all, Accustats as a video production company is like a bunch of damn monkeys trying to launch a spaceship. They are a joke. Just horrible, have no idea what they are doing and should find new jobs. They make pool look bad to the whole world on national tv. They kill the sport....rob it of its beauty.

Second off..... Grady, if you wanted to go to the World Straight Pool Championships so damn bad.... you could have qualified for them. I respect you as a player and what you have done in pool but crying on the internet isnt going to help your situation. If you have something to prove, do it on the table not with your mouth.

???

First,
Accu-Stats and Pat Fleming do an awesome job along with Billiard Club Network (Rob Sykora) to bring the action from the events into our homes. Jorge Torres is also doing a great job with propoolvideo. I think they all do a great job. I enjoy the commentary and the production is first class and very professional.

Second, Grady is not crying in the forums, and your comments are extremely disrespectful towards one of the legends in our game. Grady is not only a player, he is also a promoter of the game and he has financed his events on his own dime. For that, and for his accomplishments as a player, he has my respect and the respect of many others.

IMO, Pat Fleming and accu-stats have not killed the sport, it is attitudes such as yours that has done it.

 

[cleary]

I disagree with you and I suspect I'm not alone, in your condemnation of Accu-Stats. I think they have provided a valuable service to our sport by recording matches that would otherwise be lost to history. So much of the lore of Pool is an oral history due to the fact that no one was around with a camera. Over the last twenty years, Pat Fleming and Accu-Stats have changed all that. We now have a video history of the last generation of pool players.

One reason Efren will remain a legend long after he retires is that fifty years from now, someone will still be able to see how he played. I personally don't like a "knocker" and that is exactly what you are, all offense intended. If you think you can do better, go get your cameras and crew and have at it. That's what Theactionreport and Propoolvideo have done. Rather than complain about the events not being covered, they got off their asses and did something. What have you done other than criticize Accu-Stats? What are your credentials, other than a big mouth? How would you do it any better? I'd like to know.

What are my credentials? Lets just say, if you watch tv.... you have seen my work. Ive made something for almost every major network....MTV, Comedy Central, HBO, NBC, CBS, Discovery Channel, A&E, ESPN, as well as countless other clients. I think I know what Im talking about when it comes to quality. One of the biggest reason why poker is so popular right now is because of "the world series of poker"....... a show I have done work for. I know what it takes to make something worth watching to the general public and if someone has the funding, Ill be right there.

 

[cleary]

???

First,
Accu-Stats and Pat Fleming do an awesome job along with Billiard Club Network (Rob Sykora) to bring the action from the events into our homes. Jorge Torres is also doing a great job with propoolvideo. I think they all do a great job. I enjoy the commentary and the production is first class and very professional.

Second, Grady is not crying in the forums, and your comments are extremely disrespectful towards one of the legends in our game. Grady is not only a player, he is also a promoter of the game and he has financed his events on his own dime. For that, and for his accomplishments as a player, he has my respect and the respect of many others.

IMO, Pat Fleming and accu-stats have not killed the sport, it is attitudes such as yours that has done it.

Look buddy, Im not attacking Grady. Im simply saying if he wasnt invited... and he wanted to play that bad, he should have qualitfied. Instead of talking about it, he should do something about it. I was by no means taking a shot at Grady. I understand who he is and what he has done....I was just saying if he is upset about it, do something about it. WIN YOUR BATTLES ON THE TABLE.

 

[jay helfert]

What are my credentials? Lets just say, if you watch tv.... you have seen my work. Ive made something for almost every major network....MTV, Comedy Central, HBO, NBC, CBS, Discovery Channel, A&E, ESPN, as well as countless other clients. I think I know what Im talking about when it comes to quality. One of the biggest reason why poker is so popular right now is because of "the world series of poker"....... a show I have done work for. I know what it takes to make something worth watching to the general public and if someone has the funding, Ill be right there.

Congratulations. And you're still a KNOCKER! Big time! I don't care if you filmed the coronation of the last Pope, you don't get my vote. If you truly cared about the coverage of Pool, you would be doing something other than criticizing Accu-Stats. I have a novel concept, Mr. big time television producer. Why don't you offer to help Pat out, and share some of your expertise with him. Oh, that's right, you want to get paid. How silly of me.

I would rather hear your opinion on the coverage of Pool that's being done for ESPN. Maybe you didn't realize that Accu-Stats does not make television programming. They make DVD's. Somehow I am beginning to get a "read" on you. You aren't the producer of anything are you. You are a working stiff, maybe a technician or even a cameraman. You're a wannabe producer, and a part time knocker. Good luck with your new career. Guys like you are a dime a dozen.

P.S. If that's you in the photo, I can see you can't play a lick either. Also a part time pool imposter as well. Tell us how good you play.