disgraceful is what it is!!!!

[John Barton]

John,

I was invited. Are you saying that I can't play?

I did not say that those who were invited can't play. I said that some of them, including you, don't have but a fraction of Grady's stature in the pool world. Grady Matthews should have been invited ahead of you.

Nick Varner
Mike Sigel
Ray Martin
Jim Rempe

All these and more should have received invites, and I don't know that they didn't, before you, Bo Ram Cha, Megan Minerich, and I am sure a few others.

But honestly there shouldn't have been any invites at all. All of the players who participated should have earned their spots through play. If someone is the reigning European Champion then they are qualified. The reigning world champion in other disciplines is qualified. Otherwise let the players battle it out to determine who makes to the final day with no taint of favoritism.

Honestly David, while you are a fixture on the forums and have a little celebrity here, and also posess lots of knowledge and insight, do you have any credentials that are even close to that of Grady Matthews whereupon an invitation to participate in a World Championship event rests on?

If we agree that the title of World Champion is prestigious and worthy then we should also agree that those who get the right to contest for should also have earned that right. You have done nothing to earn it. Craig Riley has done nothing to earn it. SJM, whom I respect so very much, has done nothing to earn the right to contest for the title of World Champion. If any of those players or you were made to start at the local level and progress through regionals and nationals then you would certainly have earned the right to compete for the World Championship title if you managed to win at those levels.

Having a World Championship event where unqualified and untested players are invited and where obviously qualified and proven players are passed over sullies the title needlessly.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

I did not say that those who were invited can't play. I said that some of them, including you, don't have but a fraction of Grady's stature in the pool world. Grady Matthews should have been invited ahead of you.

Nick Varner
Mike Sigel
Ray Martin
Jim Rempe

All these and more should have received invites, and I don't know that they didn't, before you, Bo Ram Cha, Megan Minerich, and I am sure a few others.

But honestly there shouldn't have been any invites at all. All of the players who participated should have earned their spots through play. If someone is the reigning European Champion then they are qualified. The reigning world champion in other disciplines is qualified. Otherwise let the players battle it out to determine who makes to the final day with no taint of favoritism.

Honestly David, while you are a fixture on the forums and have a little celebrity here, and also posess lots of knowledge and insight, do you have any credentials that are even close to that of Grady Matthews whereupon an invitation to participate in a World Championship event rests on?

If we agree that the title of World Champion is prestigious and worthy then we should also agree that those who get the right to contest for should also have earned that right. You have done nothing to earn it. Craig Riley has done nothing to earn it. SJM, whom I respect so very much, has done nothing to earn the right to contest for the title of World Champion. If any of those players or you were made to start at the local level and progress through regionals and nationals then you would certainly have earned the right to compete for the World Championship title if you managed to win at those levels.

Having a World Championship event where unqualified and untested players are invited and where obviously qualified and proven players are passed over sullies the title needlessly.

I agree with your post that the spots should have been earned, but: Didn't SJM win a qualifier?

 

[John Barton]

just curious, but how good was Grady in his prime?(in straight pool) i'm not a pool historian, and don't know much about him. if somebody more computer savvy then me could list some of his accomplishments as a player it would be appreciated!...........Jeremy

Lets put it this way - as far as 14.1 goes. Grady used to have a standing offer to the room owners where he did exhibitions that if he did not run 100 balls before the exhibition was over then it was free. I never heard of Grady having to give a free one.

Lots of folks like to put Grady on a second tier, but in his lifetime he has quite a list of victories in tournaments and in backroom sessions that puts him on firm ground as a worldbeater.

 

[Blackjack]

I did not say that those who were invited can't play. I said that some of them, including you, don't have but a fraction of Grady's stature in the pool world. Grady Matthews should have been invited ahead of you.

Nick Varner
Mike Sigel
Ray Martin
Jim Rempe

All these and more should have received invites, and I don't know that they didn't, before you, Bo Ram Cha, Megan Minerich, and I am sure a few others.

But honestly there shouldn't have been any invites at all. All of the players who participated should have earned their spots through play. If someone is the reigning European Champion then they are qualified. The reigning world champion in other disciplines is qualified. Otherwise let the players battle it out to determine who makes to the final day with no taint of favoritism.

Honestly David, while you are a fixture on the forums and have a little celebrity here, and also posess lots of knowledge and insight, do you have any credentials that are even close to that of Grady Matthews whereupon an invitation to participate in a World Championship event rests on?

If we agree that the title of World Champion is prestigious and worthy then we should also agree that those who get the right to contest for should also have earned that right. You have done nothing to earn it. Craig Riley has done nothing to earn it. SJM, whom I respect so very much, has done nothing to earn the right to contest for the title of World Champion. If any of those players or you were made to start at the local level and progress through regionals and nationals then you would certainly have earned the right to compete for the World Championship title if you managed to win at those levels.

Having a World Championship event where unqualified and untested players are invited and where obviously qualified and proven players are passed over sullies the title needlessly.

John

I don't have anywhere near the credentials that Grady has, or most of the pros for that matter. I am mostly a 14.1 player and there hasn't been much going on lately with 14.1. I believe I play the game at a high enough level to compete with even the very best of players - I know this because I have played with most of them - and I have won a lot of those battles. My only plans for attending the event in 2007 was to help with commentary on the dvd's. From what I was told there was not going to be any produced. I'm glad Jorge got some of it on film. I think he did a great job.

We play the game of 14.1 because we love it. That is why I get a little miffed when somebody does put on an event - out of their own pocket - and people try to discount it or say how it could have been better. Bottom line, John, is it would have been better if more people gave a $hit before the event instead of after. The events need money. The events need sponsorship, and exposure that they are not getting. The players are there to play their best, not to be PR representatives.

There can be better ways of putting the event on in 2008, especially with the qualifiers. Truth be told, one of the reasons I could not attend was because I received such short notice - I was called after all of the qualifiers were played - I really was caught off guard timewise and moneywise. I do agree that there needs to be a better way of organizing the qualifiers ... but then again, its not our event, it's Randy's.

If we work together and offer suggestions, than perhaps the event for next year can be a success. Perhaps you can be one of the sponsors of the event - helping to promote it and burying the hatchet with Randy. Progress is gained through cooperating with each other and exchanging ideas. That is the only way for us to move forward successfully.

Best of luck.

 

[John Barton]

I agree with your post that the spots should have been earned, but: Didn't SJM win a qualifier?

Yes he did. A qualifier set up by the same folks who staged the invitation tournament. Stu knows what I mean. He is the board's biggest proponent of giving credit based on the merit of one's accomplishments rather than on a few victories or emotional basis.

Was a qualifier offered in Grady's home state? Or any other state for that matter? You can easily see where this gets quite murky.

 

[instroke75]

thanks for the info John! but that's why i asked because i was told by a decent source, that he was more second tier in 14.1, but at the same time this person called Grady the best One pocket player in the world! so i didn't think they were trying to disrespect him. and even before i asked around i had only heard Grady's name being sinonimous with one-pocket! so i thought i would ask more informed people...Jeremy

 

[Ktown D]

As far as no longer competitive goes:

Mike Lebron won the US Open at like 50 something

I seem to remember there being a little controversy over that one.

You make good points and there are many players over 50 that are still very competitive. There are also very few players over 60 that are still competitive and therein lies the problem. If you invite people based on ability to win then there would be many people that would not have received an invite.

I am under the opinion that Grady should be respected enough as a player and promoter to warrant an invitation to the high profile events. He has paid his dues over the course of many years. Unfortunately, given the circumstances and the abrasive fashion Grady takes when dealing with situations like this, I doubt he and CW will never see eye to eye.

I hope Grady does well with his future endeavors involving the bank and 1P events.

 

[rayjay]

I have seen a few people in this thread question Grady's displeasure at not being invited to the 14.1 tournament. They wonder why he should be invited, as they feel that he is no threat to win the tournament and the future of pool is the hands of the younger players. While this may be true, it is certainly not the correct or only answer.... imo

Tonight I watched the first episode of this year's WSOP (World Series Of Poker) $10,000 Main event. 74 year old Doyle Brunson was playing in a field of over 6300 players, most of them much younger and the players that will carry poker on to new heights. Doyle Brunson won the WSOP Main event two years in a row ('76 & '77). It has been THIRTY YEARS since he has won the event and he was unlikely to win it this year, but he played and tried.

Doyle was knocked out early in the tournament by a younger player. As he rose to leave, a small smattering of applause began. Without encouragement, the applause grew to a crescendo of thunderous proportions, as the entire room applauded loudly (with many standing). The horde of people applauded Doyle, not for winning the tournament or making the Final table, but for simply participating. They applauded his past accomplishments, his Championships and what he brought to the game.

I think that Grady should be included (by invitation) to participate in 14.1 tournaments, as a sign of respect for what he has' brought to the game' during his lifetime. You might ask, if Grady, why not Varner, Rempe, Sigel, etc. ?
To this, I also ask, why not Varner, Rempe, Sigel, etc., they are all deserving of the applause and respect of the young players of today.

You can't sweep the older players aside, only to to put a younger face on pool. Sure, the younger players of today have some great stars among them, many with a bright future, but the road that they face ahead was paved by the blood, sweat and tears of the great players of yesteryear. Many of whom have passed on, but not all.

The competitive fire still burns in the old warriors and they may have a flashback and display some incredible feat. But, even if they don't, they deserve to leave the tournament floor to a rousing applause for their effort to perform at the highest level once again for the players and the spectators.

Grady, Billy, Rempe, Varner, Sigel, Hall, etc. are the ambassadors of our chosen sport and should be recognized as such. They should be applauded simply for walking into the venue and making an appearance. It doesn't cost ANYTHING to be respectful.
Doug
( this is MY opinon, do with it as you please )

TAPTAPTAP! Very well said and I couldn't agree more!

 

[allprobilliards]

Thank you. Of course it would be possible. With imagination. For example the pool tournament could be spread out over many venues. All of the venues could be overseen by a tournament committee that was responsible for making sure that all the tables in all the rooms are correctly outfitted.

Those would be the preliminary rounds and the final rounds could be held with those that made it through - those that EARNED it - in a dedicated venue with ample spectator accommodation.

The BCA, APA, and VNEA hold dozens of tournaments for 1000+ players each year and notably 3 which boast more than 5000 players. I am not saying it's easy but it is far from impossible and quite a ways from impractical to have an all inclusive event that no one is barred from and everyone has an equal shot at.

What you are suggessting would take a tremendous amount of work.
From what I can see Dragon Promotions are doing alot of work in the sport organzing events.

Everyone here justs sits on the computer and talks about events and what should be done, can be done,etc.

Actions speak a heckuva lot louder than words.

We can all conjecture and criticize as much as we want here, and we probably spend hundreds of hours here really accomplishing nothing for the sport and affecting very few.
On the other hand, its people like Charlie Williams, Cindy Lee & Dragon Promotions that are impacting the sport and growing it globally.

 

[cuenut]

Haven't you heard? Sex sells. Good pool does not. Therefore, it seems prudent to some pool promoters to hand-pick young girls from other countries to compete in "World" Championships, as they believe this attracts the masses.

At the IPT tournament, men had to endure wearing hard leather shoes, long-sleeved shirts, suits and ties. The women, on the other hand, could wear as much or little as they wanted to. There did not seem to be a dress code for women. In fact, the less they wore, the better, in some circles.

There is not much respect from some entities for pool champions, especially when they age. In fact, some UPA representatives/players have stated that it was their goal to get rid of the old-school players from the organization, which is why you don't see some older champions being invited to various tournament from time to time today by a handful of pool promoters. This was relayed to me by a UPA member who heard it from the mouth of a UPA player representative. I have never forgotten it.

JAM

Sounds extremely similar to Women's tennis when Anna Kournikova started playing in tournaments. Young and pretty sure carried alot more TV time than seasoned and great. I think she played for YEARS before she ever won a significant tournament, and I don't think it was a Grand Slam event.

 

[jay helfert]

What you are suggessting would take a tremendous amount of work.
From what I can see Dragon Promotions are doing alot of work in the sport organzing events.

Everyone here justs sits on the computer and talks about events and what should be done, can be done,etc.

Actions speak a heckuva lot louder than words.

We can all conjecture and criticize as much as we want here, and we probably spend hundreds of hours here really accomplishing nothing for the sport and affecting very few.
On the other hand, its people like Charlie Williams, Cindy Lee & Dragon Promotions that are impacting the sport and growing it globally.

Thanks for posting this. Take it from one who has been there and done that, it ain't easy to produce an event. Much harder than it looks.

Try finding a good location with suitable dates available at a reasonable price. Try finding the necessary sponsorship monies/backing to stage the event. Try putting together the advertising/p.r. campaign to promote the event. Try dealing with all the issues that dozens of pool player will present to you. Try coming up with a tournament structure that will suit everyone. Try finding lodging for all the players at a good rate. Try putting together a competent staff to run the event. Try getting all the necessary licenses and permits to conduct the event. Try arranging for pool tables, seating, exhibitor tables etc. etc.

And there's more! Try doing all the above and making money!

After you've done all this one time, then come back on here and offer your suggestions on how to put on a pool tournament. Trust me when I tell you that producing events like the World 14.1 has to be a labor of love. And then to come on here and see people tearing apart their efforts has to be disappointing to say the least.

I don't know Randy Goldwater all that well, but my hat is off to him. I KNOW that he and his partner worked hard to make this event happen, and probably lost money as well. I've been upside down more than once at the end of a pool tournament.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Sounds extremely similar to Women's tennis when Anna Kournikova started playing in tournaments. Young and pretty sure carried alot more TV time than seasoned and great. I think she played for YEARS before she ever won a significant tournament, and I don't think it was a Grand Slam event.

Maria Sharapova is better looking, and she can play too.

 

[Blackjack]

What you are suggessting would take a tremendous amount of work.
From what I can see Dragon Promotions are doing alot of work in the sport organzing events.

Everyone here justs sits on the computer and talks about events and what should be done, can be done,etc.

Actions speak a heckuva lot louder than words.

We can all conjecture and criticize as much as we want here, and we probably spend hundreds of hours here really accomplishing nothing for the sport and affecting very few.
On the other hand, its people like Charlie Williams, Cindy Lee & Dragon Promotions that are impacting the sport and growing it globally.

Tap-Tap-Tap!!!

It's like I said earlier, more people give a $hit after the event than before the event. We can all Monday Morning Quarterback every event we go to, but the fact remains that its hard work. I have watched Charlie and Cindy work into the wee hours of the night to make sure that events run smoothly. If we had this much interest in planning the event as we have in the after action report, then perhaps we'd have better events.

Charlie is a lot of things to a lot of people, but in my eyes he is a do-er, not a talker. I don't agree with everything he does, but he has the balls to make those decisions and stand by his decisions no matter what the outcome may be. I repsect him, and I also respect Grady and I believe if they put their differences aside and put their heads together we might get somewhere.

 

[John Barton]

Thanks for posting this. Take it from one who has been there and done that, it ain't easy to produce an event. Much harder than it looks.

Try finding a good location with suitable dates available at a reasonable price. Try finding the necessary sponsorship monies/backing to stage the event. Try putting together the advertising/p.r. campaign to promote the event. Try dealing with all the issues that dozens of pool player will present to you. Try coming up with a tournament structure that will suit everyone. Try finding lodging for all the players at a good rate. Try putting together a competent staff to run the event. Try getting all the necessary licenses and permits to conduct the event. Try arranging for pool tables, seating, exhibitor tables etc. etc.

And there's more! Try doing all the above and making money!

After you've done all this one time, then come back on here and offer your suggestions on how to put on a pool tournament. Trust me when I tell you that producing events like the World 14.1 has to be a labor of love. And then to come on here and see people tearing apart their efforts has to be disappointing to say the least.

I don't know Randy Goldwater all that well, but my hat is off to him. I KNOW that he and his partner worked hard to make this event happen, and probably lost money as well. I've been upside down more than once at the end of a pool tournament.

I guess by these standards I am qualified to put in my 2cts then as one who has run tournaments, leagues, setup and promoted exhibitions and clinics.

But honestly Jay, inviting players with no credentials at the last minute over players with far more stature?????

That's really what it's about - the fact that SOME tournaments are more of a clique than a competition.

Sure it takes a lot of work to put on any event - and I submit that it takes even more work to do it without any taint but doing it without a bad aftertaste is well worth the cost.

John

 

[Blackjack]

I guess by these standards I am qualified to put in my 2cts then as one who has run tournaments, leagues, setup and promoted exhibitions and clinics.

But honestly Jay, inviting players with no credentials at the last minute over players with far more stature?????

That's really what it's about - the fact that SOME tournaments are more of a clique than a competition.

Sure it takes a lot of work to put on any event - and I submit that it takes even more work to do it without any taint but doing it without a bad aftertaste is well worth the cost.

John

John,

There is no dispute that the event could have been done better - that could be said of every event. Saying that certain players invited to this event had no credentials is insulting, demeaning, and completely uncalled for. Megan Minerich has a documented run of 99 playing straight pool. My high run is 212 - documented. Hudji See didn't crawl out from under a rock either - and most people had never even heard of him before this tournament in much the same way nobody knew who Thorsten Hohman was before Cardiff in 2003, but the man can play and he showed that. As with any event, the cream rises to the top. I can live with the fact that Oliver Ortmann is the world champion as a result of the field of this tournament and Im sure if I had actually played in it that I would not have had much of an effect on the final outcome. FWIW, Shoot me and everybody else for wanting to try.

Randy put on the best event that he could with the resources that he had. He didn't invite Grady for one of two reasons:

1) He didn't want him there because of the things Grady had said publicly about him, this event, and Charlie Williams
2) See #1

You don't get an invite from people that you say these things about and Grady knows that. I am not discounting Grady's side of things, I am just trying to pain the picture a little clearer. From Grady's standpoint I can see why he is upset with the organizations and people he is upset with. I think starting his own events is a bg step in a positive direction, but I still don;t see him getting an invite next year (or a Christmas Card) from Charlie Williams. It is what it is, John. They don't like each other .

Also... SJM earned his qualifier by showing up and winning it - in NYC - the hotbed of straight pool. Don't discount it by saying that it was designed for him to win it - it wasn't. Stu is a great player, and a good man - and he earned his way into this event. He didn't deserve those comments. All of the players that played in this event are very good players, and I don't have a problem with Randy playing in his own event - it's HIS event.

 

[JAM]

That would be the correct way of doing it, no doubt.

32 qualifiers around the world, 2 players proceed from each and you have 64 winners to meet in New Jersey for the World Championship!

It would seem better to do it this way if it is labeled as "WORLD" championship, rather than having pretty young things with little or no track record in the discipline of 14.1 competing in a "WORLD" 14.1 championship, IMHO.

JAM

 

[jay helfert]

I guess by these standards I am qualified to put in my 2cts then as one who has run tournaments, leagues, setup and promoted exhibitions and clinics.

But honestly Jay, inviting players with no credentials at the last minute over players with far more stature?????

That's really what it's about - the fact that SOME tournaments are more of a clique than a competition.

Sure it takes a lot of work to put on any event - and I submit that it takes even more work to do it without any taint but doing it without a bad aftertaste is well worth the cost.

John

With all due respect John, who should decide? There is no true ranking system for 14.1 players currently. Far too few events.

I respectfully submit that the decision as to who should play in an Invitational event should be made by those producing the event, and putting up the prize money.

No matter who is, or who is not invited, somebody will be unhappy. If it were me (and it most clearly isn't), I would want the best players first and the most colorful players second, and the best women players third. Popular veteran players who might have a following would be given equal consideration as well.

 

[Blackjack]

It would seem better to do it this way if it is labeled as "WORLD" championship, rather than having pretty young things with little or no track record in the discipline of 14.1 competing in a "WORLD" 14.1 championship, IMHO.

JAM

Okay Jennie, explain the fact that someone in the IPT offices saw it fit to add Bernie Friend to the list of 150 over players such as CJ Wiley, Danny Harriman, and others. Its the same deal, only I don't consider Bernie a "pretty young thing".

It came down to who the IPT wanted in - and who they didn't want in. I know a lot about that and the specifics that deal with that - and I can back up everything I say with proof - it happened there - it happens anytime you close your doors and have to pick and choose who is in and who is out. Someone is always going to be left out and someone is always going to get pissed off about it.

We can all criticize, but I'm pretty sure that not many of us could have done any better.

 

[corvette1340]

With all due respect John, who should decide? There is no true ranking system for 14.1 players currently. Far too few events.

I respectfully submit that the decision as to who should play in an Invitational event should be made by those producing the event, and putting up the prize money.

No matter who is, or who is not invited, somebody will be unhappy. If it were me (and it most clearly isn't), I would want the best players first and the most colorful players second, and the best women players third. Popular veteran players who might have a following would be given equal consideration as well.

You are correct. In the absence of a 14.1 ranking system or tour, the invite list will always be subjective. Because of this, I feel that whomever puts on the tour and secures sponsors for the tour should have the final say in who is or who is not invited. If personal vendettas make it impossible for certain people to get invites then that is tragic, but that is also life. If I fronted the money for a tour or put a tournament together, you can be damn sure I'm gonna run it the way I want to and invite the people that I deem worthy. I would adhere to the masses and invite the most worthy, thereby making it more attractive to the audience, but ultimately the decision lies with those in charge. To all of the people challenging the UPA and its invites, rankings, procedures, etc... I suggest making your own tour and then you can do as you please. It seems Grady is adopting this philosophy and I hope it works out.

 

[JAM]

Okay Jennie, explain the fact that someone in the IPT offices saw it fit to add Bernie Friend to the list of 150 over players such as CJ Wiley, Danny Harriman, and others. Its the same deal, only I don't consider Bernie a "pretty young thing".

Well, Blackjack, as we have been round and round this topic ad nauseum, I'll provide my opinion once more, just in case you have selective memory problems.

The IPT was a brand-new organization. They publicized through the pool media that they were looking to get 150 members for the tour. Each pool player who was interested was requested to send in their portfolio and information to the IPT by September 30th, 2005. Unfortunately, not every pool player who desired to be a member of the IPT after the fact, followed through on this request before the fact. Therein likes why Bernie Friend and others got into the IPT. Their quick-thinking afforded them the opportunity of a lifetime.

Thing long, think wrong.

It came down to who the IPT wanted in - and who they didn't want in. I know a lot about that and the specifics that deal with that - and I can back up everything I say with proof - it happened there - it happens anytime you close your doors and have to pick and choose who is in and who is out. Someone is always going to be left out and someone is always going to get pissed off about it.

There were quite a few players who were not on the IPT initially that I thought should have been up for consideration as one of the 150 members. Ronnie Wiseman's name comes to mind.

One thing for sure, Kevin Trudeau didn't ignore the great ones of the sport for the launch of the IPT. In fact, he invited all of the BCA Hall of Famers to be a member, out of respect for pool as a sport, which is more than I can say about some of these other young whipper-snapper promoters.

I can think of several UPA members who got in the IPT who should not have been on the IPT. We could have this debate all day and then some.

We can all criticize, but I'm pretty sure that not many of us could have done any better.

When somebody takes money out of your pocket, Blackjack, placing hurdles and stop signs in front of you, preventing you from earning your livelihood, you just might feel a little differently than you do today sitting at home on your computer expressing your opinions. When you travel hundreds of miles to tournaments, making reservations, paying monies, traveling hours and hours to get there, only to find out that you cannot compete unless you sign a legally binding document, without benefit of counsel, it raises bright red flags.

Would you like to continue this dance, or should we move on to the next topic for discussion?

JAM