Does the table condition really matter??
- Thread starter Neil
- Start date
i think it can cut both ways. if the table is in bad shape and it's the first time both players have seen it, the match comes down to who can adjust the fastest. that club has to be in your bag by the way. if you get to a table that sucks and immediately start crying about it, and how it's not fair and the rooms too hot, and you let all that fester - you're done, no matter the table. if, however, it's a home table for one player that they are perfectly comfortable witht the loose felt and the funny roll that starts at the middle diamond on the top part of the long rail and rolls a ball from the headspot straight into the pockect - then you now have an advantage for one side. i don't know it should really matter but, i am a six in apa 8 and 9 ball and a 7 in bca 8 ball so i hang in the upper middle parts of the handicap systems. i have also gone to the section of az billiards where you can try and gauge what you'd be in the AZ. tournament ratings and i'd be pretty close to a 6 or 7 there is what i can figure.
I think it hurts the better players much much more than the weaker players.
Also hurts the better finese style players much much more than a better
player who plays more of a shooter style.
Here is an example I used once...
Take Tiger Woods and then any random bogey golfer of the street.
Each put the same 15 foot slight breaking put 20 times....
Bogey golfer picks his equipment and everything is identical
Tiger gets whats put in front of him and the balls are random weights. Also every few shots the green changes slope.
I would think that the bogie golfer does better or at least comes close to equal.
Thats with different conditions..
With the same bad condiditon I think it effects the guy that has perfected
his abilities while playing in good condiditions. If Tiger and the guy both put on the bad condition green then I think the playing field narrows. The lesser player might not notice slight changes therefore not effecting his game.
All this is in short races. If players play the same poor conditions long enough then the talent and ability to adapt will prevail.
Also hurts the better finese style players much much more than a better
player who plays more of a shooter style.
Here is an example I used once...
Take Tiger Woods and then any random bogey golfer of the street.
Each put the same 15 foot slight breaking put 20 times....
Bogey golfer picks his equipment and everything is identical
Tiger gets whats put in front of him and the balls are random weights. Also every few shots the green changes slope.
I would think that the bogie golfer does better or at least comes close to equal.
Thats with different conditions..
With the same bad condiditon I think it effects the guy that has perfected
his abilities while playing in good condiditions. If Tiger and the guy both put on the bad condition green then I think the playing field narrows. The lesser player might not notice slight changes therefore not effecting his game.
All this is in short races. If players play the same poor conditions long enough then the talent and ability to adapt will prevail.
Yes and no....ultimately, you are both playing on the same equipment....if it's a table neither of you play on and it's a long race, it'll all work out in the end....
On the other hand, in a short race, you could find out about a dead rail or table roll at the exact wrong moment.....and one shot could be the match......also, if it's a table with personality, and one of the players knows the tricks, there's another advantage that doesn't have to do with the ability to play pool...
For the most part, frustrations are shared on crappy equipment, so you suck it up.....it's just like pool rooms.....some people can adapt to heat, cold, smoke, lighting, atmosphere, music....all at little differently.....if you like it cold and it's 80 degrees, that can suck :frown:
I still would be pissed if I flew to Vegas to play on crappy tables
I agreee that it hurts the better playres more than the weaker ones, much like several other things in APA.
For instance, not being able to push in 9 or having to "take what you make" in 8. They serve as an additional handicap to thinking players.
A weak player is less likely to be affected by a bad roll on a table, because he is less precise with position. However, he is also less capable of compensating, perhaps with a drag shot.
Also, @jrt: I just thought I'd say that a six in APA 9-ball is NOT the upper levels of league play, nor does it improve or lessen the value of your opinion in this discussion.
Finally, I played on 30ish tables at the APA this year, and all but maybe 3 rolled straight. I also read that they were very slow, which wasn't the case. Some had slow rails, all had fast cloth afaik.
For instance, not being able to push in 9 or having to "take what you make" in 8. They serve as an additional handicap to thinking players.
A weak player is less likely to be affected by a bad roll on a table, because he is less precise with position. However, he is also less capable of compensating, perhaps with a drag shot.
Also, @jrt: I just thought I'd say that a six in APA 9-ball is NOT the upper levels of league play, nor does it improve or lessen the value of your opinion in this discussion.
Finally, I played on 30ish tables at the APA this year, and all but maybe 3 rolled straight. I also read that they were very slow, which wasn't the case. Some had slow rails, all had fast cloth afaik.
Is that supposed to be a good number? If 10% of the tables are unlevel, their equipment does not receive a passing grade, IMHO.
my 2 cents
i play in an apa league and every other week my team has to "travel" to another team's home room. i also play a small friday night "bar" tournament, plus i practice on my dynamo at home(which i recovered myself for the first time and my corner folds look better than what's being shown elsewhere) so i see a lot of different tables each week. some have loose felt, some dead bumpers, some the cloth seems to be made from satin sheets instead of wool felt they are so thin and slick. point being, as an apa player we all have to adjust to different (less than perfect conditions) each week.
the teams that do are the teams that win consistently at least in my area. i am currently ranked as a 5 in apa 8 ball (due to a faulty brian most of the time) and can adjust as need be so i would think that a good player shouldnt be handicapped to badly when playing a banger on poor equipment. just my opinion.
Mike:smile:
i play in an apa league and every other week my team has to "travel" to another team's home room. i also play a small friday night "bar" tournament, plus i practice on my dynamo at home(which i recovered myself for the first time and my corner folds look better than what's being shown elsewhere) so i see a lot of different tables each week. some have loose felt, some dead bumpers, some the cloth seems to be made from satin sheets instead of wool felt they are so thin and slick. point being, as an apa player we all have to adjust to different (less than perfect conditions) each week.
the teams that do are the teams that win consistently at least in my area. i am currently ranked as a 5 in apa 8 ball (due to a faulty brian most of the time) and can adjust as need be so i would think that a good player shouldnt be handicapped to badly when playing a banger on poor equipment. just my opinion.
Mike:smile:
This is exactly what I would have said were it not already posted.
A potter who shoots relatively hard and relies on potting ability is going to have less of a negative effect from a poor playing table then a finese shape player who shoots with a softer more controlled stroke and relies on pinpoint shape play to get out. Someone who plays breakouts on balls that go with shortside shape is going to have less of a negative effect then a person who normally has the touch to play onto that short side shape with success on good equipment.
I absolutely think that a bad table can effect people in different ways. Everyones definition of a bad table is different though. A lightning fast table is good for people with great touch and less stroke. A slow table is good for people with harder breaks and a better stroke.
For example a local bar that I play at just put in two 7' Diamond smart tables with simonis cloth with pro cut pockets. The tables play great in my opinion, but there are bangers that play on the valleys at the same place with slow cloth and big pockets that can't stand these tables. Some of these guys I play about even with on the Valley's and rob them on the Diamonds.
I have a friend who is a solid A player that plays a finesse game and if you put him on a table that doesn't roll right it will hurt his game much more than it will hurt mine. Sure he will adjust and hit the balls firmer but that takes a lot away from his game.
I have another friend who is also a solid A player with a break that is very soft. He controls the cue ball quite well but doesn't hit the balls very hard. On the new diamonds he almost always makes a ball and runs a lot more racks then he does on the Valley's with the slower cloth.
When I used to play in the APA eight ball many years ago I played as a six, now I think I might be a strong six or a weak seven.
For example a local bar that I play at just put in two 7' Diamond smart tables with simonis cloth with pro cut pockets. The tables play great in my opinion, but there are bangers that play on the valleys at the same place with slow cloth and big pockets that can't stand these tables. Some of these guys I play about even with on the Valley's and rob them on the Diamonds.
I have a friend who is a solid A player that plays a finesse game and if you put him on a table that doesn't roll right it will hurt his game much more than it will hurt mine. Sure he will adjust and hit the balls firmer but that takes a lot away from his game.
I have another friend who is also a solid A player with a break that is very soft. He controls the cue ball quite well but doesn't hit the balls very hard. On the new diamonds he almost always makes a ball and runs a lot more racks then he does on the Valley's with the slower cloth.
When I used to play in the APA eight ball many years ago I played as a six, now I think I might be a strong six or a weak seven.
I wasn't there so I don't know the conditions.
What's the purpose of playing the league spend a lot of money and play on tables you can find in a bar.
Wouldn't the question be its a national tournament and there's an expectation of first rate equipment? I wouldn't expect or demand a certain brand table but I would expect the table to be first rate.
The APA, BCA and VNEA experience is for amateurs to compete, Vegas and possibly win money or trophies people travel long distances at considerable expense.
I've been to Vegas many times so for me the reasons to go would be fine tables and players you would never play otherwise.
How would you like taking the family to Disneyland and 1/2 the rides worked?
What's the purpose of playing the league spend a lot of money and play on tables you can find in a bar.
Wouldn't the question be its a national tournament and there's an expectation of first rate equipment? I wouldn't expect or demand a certain brand table but I would expect the table to be first rate.
The APA, BCA and VNEA experience is for amateurs to compete, Vegas and possibly win money or trophies people travel long distances at considerable expense.
I've been to Vegas many times so for me the reasons to go would be fine tables and players you would never play otherwise.
How would you like taking the family to Disneyland and 1/2 the rides worked?
I think the table conditions do make a difference, especially for the players that play with top notch equipment all the time. I think these type of players are at a disadvantage, because they have never needed to adjust for dirty balls or dirty or worn cloth.
Neil:
First, I want to frame this by saying although I have quite a few friends that play APA (and I often tag along with them to an APA singles board to provide some stiff "practice competition" to get their mind wrapped around being in a subsequent match that really matters), I myself do not play in the APA. (I play several in-house leagues, and was a league operator for a couple of years at the now-defunct Boston Billiards branch in Danbury, CT.) So take this for what it's worth...
I would say, in a short race, table conditions *do* matter, and for some odd/strange/bewildering reason, favor the "banger" or the home team. This is even described in a particular chapter in R. Givens great work, The 8-Ball Bible. He talks of one particular instance where he put his opponent in "one ball hell," but that opponent was aware of a particular roll on that table whereby if you slow-rolled a ball down the rail past the side pocket, the ball would "fall sideways" into the side pocket. Of course the opponent called that shot, and ended up winning the game.
I myself have played games against bangers whereby I would play nearly picture-perfect position, but "nearly" wasn't quite enough as I didn't anticipate the lack of a cue ball rolling true amongst the congestion, and I got snookered behind one of my opponent's seven balls still on the table. Yet this same opponent would literally get up there and just slam the balls -- never a single shot with "touch" or precision applied, and somehow managed to either run out, or miss and subsequently get a lucky "wobble" of the cue ball whereby the very last roll of the cue ball was in a direction other than the direction it was originally traveling in (i.e. a curve at the last second, ducking behind one of my opponent's object balls). And here I am, trying to kick at something...
Anyway, in a long race, table conditions are essentially nullified. Whenever I get one of these "boasting bangers" on the line that won a single game or a short race with me, I hook 'em for a longer race, with much, MUCH more on the line (boo-coo $$$). And I get 'em just about every time, since a longer race *will* prefer the better player that ultimately adapts to the table conditions. I also to make sure I have a "crawfish-like" group of friends with me, to provide some, umm... "leverage," if Mr. Fish wants to get physical after the fact...
Anyway, I think the point of that other thread you mention was not sour grapes, but rather why on earth would the APA allow such horridly-configured tables on the floor of their premier event. (The pictures in that thread are quite laughable -- with the cloth folds on the OUTSIDE of the rail, instead of inside the pocket facing.)
Anyway, my $0.02, that I picked up off the floor...
-Sean
Neil:
I would say, in a short race, table conditions *do* matter, and for some odd/strange/bewildering reason, favor the "banger" or the home team.
I myself have played games against bangers whereby I would play nearly picture-perfect position, but "nearly" wasn't quite enough as I didn't anticipate the lack of a cue ball rolling true amongst the congestion, and I got snookered behind one of my opponent's seven balls still on the table. Yet this same opponent would literally get up there and just slam the balls -- never a single shot with "touch" or precision applied, and somehow managed to either run out, or miss and subsequently get a lucky "wobble" of the cue ball whereby the very last roll of the cue ball was in a direction other than the direction it was originally traveling in (i.e. a curve at the last second, ducking behind one of my opponent's object balls). And here I am, trying to kick at something...
Anyway, in a long race, table conditions are essentially nullified. Whenever I get one of these "boasting bangers" on the line that won a single game or a short race with me, I hook 'em for a longer race, with much, MUCH more on the line (boo-coo $$$). And I get 'em just about every time, since a longer race *will* prefer the better player that ultimately adapts to the table conditions. I also to make sure I have a "crawfish-like" group of friends with me, to provide some, umm... "leverage," if Mr. Fish wants to get physical after the fact...
this is a great post
It didn't seem to me the complaint about the poor equipment centered around the notion that it made it unfair for the better or more serious player. Of course the table is the same for both players and, all other things being equal, the player who adjusts to the table conditions better will have the advantage, whether it's a great table or a lousy one. I didn't think this was the point, and frankly is irrelevant.
For me the issue would be that if I'm playing in my league's national championship, especially the biggest league in the country, and I've incurred not so minimal expense and time to attend, I would expect to play on good equipment - excellent equipment in fact. I would, and I think rightly so, expect a better pool experience out of it than to go to the national championships, incur airfare and an 8-10 day hotel bill just to play on crap tables with bad cloth that were poorly set up.
You wouldn't find the USGA holding any of its national championships on a rag-tag muni with crappy greens and poorly maintained bunkers and fairways. Or if I go on a golf trip with a buddy to say, a location with a good reputation, pay good money to stay there only to find out the golf course is crap, I'd be bummed. It is irrelevant that my buddy and I are competing on the same course. We would both be pissed.
Anyway, that's the way I read the complaints people had. And I wasn't there so, for the record, I'm not complaining. But it does seem enough people posted about it that the quality of the equipment might have been in question.
For me the issue would be that if I'm playing in my league's national championship, especially the biggest league in the country, and I've incurred not so minimal expense and time to attend, I would expect to play on good equipment - excellent equipment in fact. I would, and I think rightly so, expect a better pool experience out of it than to go to the national championships, incur airfare and an 8-10 day hotel bill just to play on crap tables with bad cloth that were poorly set up.
You wouldn't find the USGA holding any of its national championships on a rag-tag muni with crappy greens and poorly maintained bunkers and fairways. Or if I go on a golf trip with a buddy to say, a location with a good reputation, pay good money to stay there only to find out the golf course is crap, I'd be bummed. It is irrelevant that my buddy and I are competing on the same course. We would both be pissed.
Anyway, that's the way I read the complaints people had. And I wasn't there so, for the record, I'm not complaining. But it does seem enough people posted about it that the quality of the equipment might have been in question.
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I agree that if a table plays horrible it does/can affect the match. I do have a hard time agreeing that it gives the lesser player an advantage but it could close the gap somewhat between players. Shot makers would have less of a problem also. But the better player should also be the better shot maker except between players of comparable abilities like two 7's or a strong 6 and 7.
However, I was at the nationals and played on many of the tables. Perfect they were not, but they were not horrible either. Sorry it sounds like sour grapes to me. I played on many of the tables and the worst ones were the ones most praised, Allison and Kelly Fisher's tables.
However, I was at the nationals and played on many of the tables. Perfect they were not, but they were not horrible either. Sorry it sounds like sour grapes to me. I played on many of the tables and the worst ones were the ones most praised, Allison and Kelly Fisher's tables.
most adaptable
The most adaptable player isn't necessarily the best player in pure shot making skills or even the one that would win the most games on a perfect table. Now many of us are used to bringing our own cues to play on perfect tables with perfect lighting and perfect climate control. We are fair weather runners and good, great, or bad players we aren't prepared to run in the mud or slop to compare today's players to race horses.
Forty years ago I didn't own a cue stick. If I won one I instantly sold it for what I had just bet or gave it to a friend, often on the spot to the pain of the person that had just lost it! Everywhere I went I had to adjust to a new stick, new tip, widely different weight sticks, seven, eight, pro eight, nine, and ten foot tables with wildly varying cloth and cushions, some with worse rolls than a putt-putt golf course, wide swings in lighting, air conditioning, no air conditioning, some places with respect for pool players, people totally ignoring that we were trying to play pool and leaning all over the pool table, dozens of mostly dead bugs on the table and a few live ones(a june bug deflects a cue ball a mile :grin: ) the list is endless.
We adapted to whatever we found wherever. Ripped cloth and stuff spilled on the table that we preferred not to dwell on what it might be were par for the course. One place I liked to play at the end of the world the pool table was the diaper changing station too. Need I say more?
Part of being a good player was adaptability just as many feel that stamina and the ability to grind should define a player now. I don't know that either criteria is really fair. Bad conditions or inconsistent conditions between tables don't really favor the better or worse player but the person most used to dealing with those conditions. That person is also the least rattled by the conditions too.
I have to admit that I went into a new place a few months back and discovered what appeared to be cheap home tables. The rails and cloth were pure garbage. I could have adapted my play to the tables but I made an instant decision that I didn't want to cobble up my game adjusting to these conditions the first time I drove a cue ball into the rail, I too am a fair weather runner to some extent these days!
Hu
The most adaptable player isn't necessarily the best player in pure shot making skills or even the one that would win the most games on a perfect table. Now many of us are used to bringing our own cues to play on perfect tables with perfect lighting and perfect climate control. We are fair weather runners and good, great, or bad players we aren't prepared to run in the mud or slop to compare today's players to race horses.
Forty years ago I didn't own a cue stick. If I won one I instantly sold it for what I had just bet or gave it to a friend, often on the spot to the pain of the person that had just lost it! Everywhere I went I had to adjust to a new stick, new tip, widely different weight sticks, seven, eight, pro eight, nine, and ten foot tables with wildly varying cloth and cushions, some with worse rolls than a putt-putt golf course, wide swings in lighting, air conditioning, no air conditioning, some places with respect for pool players, people totally ignoring that we were trying to play pool and leaning all over the pool table, dozens of mostly dead bugs on the table and a few live ones(a june bug deflects a cue ball a mile :grin: ) the list is endless.
We adapted to whatever we found wherever. Ripped cloth and stuff spilled on the table that we preferred not to dwell on what it might be were par for the course. One place I liked to play at the end of the world the pool table was the diaper changing station too. Need I say more?
Part of being a good player was adaptability just as many feel that stamina and the ability to grind should define a player now. I don't know that either criteria is really fair. Bad conditions or inconsistent conditions between tables don't really favor the better or worse player but the person most used to dealing with those conditions. That person is also the least rattled by the conditions too.
I have to admit that I went into a new place a few months back and discovered what appeared to be cheap home tables. The rails and cloth were pure garbage. I could have adapted my play to the tables but I made an instant decision that I didn't want to cobble up my game adjusting to these conditions the first time I drove a cue ball into the rail, I too am a fair weather runner to some extent these days!
Hu