Does this win change the narrative?

[jokrswylde]

For the last several years, after each Mosconi Cup loss, there have been very knowledgeable people on these forums pontificate at length on how the U.S. can no longer compete with the Europeans.

A variety of excuses have been put forth: the number of tournaments played on bar boxes, not fundamentally sound, lack of an established u.s. tour, too much emphasis placed on gambling matches, no amateur involvement, the list was long and varied.

Even this year, after the U.S. team beat the Russian team and the British team, there were several on here who downplayed the achievement. There were threads that argued against the efficacy of the boot camps, and Johan as a coach.

What I saw this week ( and even earlier at the us open), was a group of U.S. players that can compete with anyone on any given day. Cory even had a FB post from before he was even on the team that basically said (paraphrasing here) "don't believe all the experts who say the Americans cant compete internationally, the Americans have been beating them in tournaments all year."

So, my question, do ya'll think this win is a re- assertion of Americans as a legitimate force in professional pool for the next decade, or was it a fluke? Because at the end of the day, many of the things that folks were saying were holding the Americans back are still there. They still play a ton of bar box tourneys, they still like to gamble, for the most part they don't travel to international competitions, etc.

 

[Jaden]

The short answer????

For the last several years, after each Mosconi Cup loss, there have been very knowledgeable people on these forums pontificate at length on how the U.S. can no longer compete with the Europeans.

A variety of excuses have been put forth: the number of tournaments played on bar boxes, not fundamentally sound, lack of an established u.s. tour, too much emphasis placed on gambling matches, no amateur involvement, the list was long and varied.

Even this year, after the U.S. team beat the Russian team and the British team, there were several on here who downplayed the achievement. There were threads that argued against the efficacy of the boot camps, and Johan as a coach.

What I saw this week ( and even earlier at the us open), was a group of U.S. players that can compete with anyone on any given day. Cory even had a FB post from before he was even on the team that basically said (paraphrasing here) "don't believe all the experts who say the Americans cant compete internationally, the Americans have been beating them in tournaments all year."

So, my question, do ya'll think this win is a re- assertion of Americans as a legitimate force in professional pool for the next decade, or was it a fluke? Because at the end of the day, many of the things that folks were saying were holding the Americans back are still there. They still play a ton of bar box tourneys, they still like to gamble, for the most part they don't travel to international competitions, etc.

The short answer is they've always been full of shit. The Mosconi cup format is and always has been a toss up with players at this level.

Morons who have claimed that Europe is hands down better than the US are totally full of shit.

The fact that many of Europe's best play and live in the US is all the evidence anyone should've ever needed for that.

Jaden

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Also of note, is that the US Mosconi Cup team played in a Euro Tour stop this year, and I think 3 or 4 of them made the quarterfinals, and SVB ended up winning it.

That was very telling in that if US players could afford to travel and play regularly, not only would they get better pedigree and seasoning, but they would be winning regularly over the European players.

I think that Euro tour stop, and the two matches against team Russia and team England highlighted the fact that when broken down by country, the US is the big boy on the block and that mentality definitely carried over into the Mosconi Cup.

Also, Coach Johan said in the closing remarks after the win that they started out with 30 players and narrowed down to 5. There are 25 other players who have trained in this system and have seen that it pays results. So there is a future here for American pool it just needs to use this HUGE victory as a foundation to build another level.

 

[wayne]

The short answer is they've always been full of shit. The Mosconi cup format is and always has been a toss up with players at this level.

Morons who have claimed that Europe is hands down better than the US are totally full of shit.

The fact that many of Europe's best play and live in the US is all the evidence anyone should've ever needed for that.

Jaden

Yeah, Europe just got lucky for 9 years *

 

[BasementDweller]

For the last several years, after each Mosconi Cup loss, there have been very knowledgeable people on these forums pontificate at length on how the U.S. can no longer compete with the Europeans.

A variety of excuses have been put forth: the number of tournaments played on bar boxes, not fundamentally sound, lack of an established u.s. tour, too much emphasis placed on gambling matches, no amateur involvement, the list was long and varied.

Even this year, after the U.S. team beat the Russian team and the British team, there were several on here who downplayed the achievement. There were threads that argued against the efficacy of the boot camps, and Johan as a coach.

What I saw this week ( and even earlier at the us open), was a group of U.S. players that can compete with anyone on any given day. Cory even had a FB post from before he was even on the team that basically said (paraphrasing here) "don't believe all the experts who say the Americans cant compete internationally, the Americans have been beating them in tournaments all year."

So, my question, do ya'll think this win is a re- assertion of Americans as a legitimate force in professional pool for the next decade, or was it a fluke? Because at the end of the day, many of the things that folks were saying were holding the Americans back are still there. They still play a ton of bar box tourneys, they still like to gamble, for the most part they don't travel to international competitions, etc.

Great questions.

I've been pointing the finger in the direction of poor fundamentals for years and I think that's the one and only thing that has been holding the US team back. One can point to playing on bar tables as the main reason that top US players get away with loosey-goosey technique and there's some value in that view but overall I don't have as much of an issue with bar table play as many on here do. Bar table tournaments have grown in recent years but the bar table has been a staple of US pool play for generations and a serious part of it at that. There's really nothing wrong with pros playing on them from time to time. In a world where we had a healthy professional tour, all the talk about bar table play would evaporate into thin air. The problem has just been there hasn't been as much exposure to big tournaments for our top pros. That seems to be changing though.

Back to the fundamentals things....I've analyzed the Mosconi Cup year after year and I would see the same fundamental mistakes year after year. The obvious flaws would jump out of the screen and anyone who was paying just a bit of attention could see that our players weren't as technically proficient as their European counterparts. Something was certainly different this year with the US players and it was obvious that their technique was better. There was no jumping up on the shots. There was no one stroking the ball. Their demeanor at the table was better too in that they weren't overly celebrating a single rack victory. Instead they left that type of thing to Shaw and it ended up biting him in the rear. They also weren't scurrying around looking for the chalk while playing doubles like they showed up to the event with only a single piece of chalk to share.

One thing that I've also said several times over the years is that the Mosconi Cup is NOT about how good you can play but about how BAD you can! The thing that determines how poorly you are capable of playing at your worst is your technique. Here I think Tyler Styer proved this point very well. He is not an accomplished player. He does not yet have a single major victory under his belt. Well, I guess he now has this one but prior to this -- nothing of note. What he proved is that with good technique -- you can play your game. You can play your 750 Fargo game and that can get you there in the Mosconi Cup. Whereas, there are more accomplished guys who in this environment can't play their 780 game but instead they play their 720 and that doesn't get it done. So technique matters a lot and my hats off to Johan for getting these guys to see this.

 

[Island Drive]

The short answer is they've always been full of shit. The Mosconi cup format is and always has been a toss up with players at this level.

Morons who have claimed that Europe is hands down better than the US are totally full of shit.

The fact that many of Europe's best play and live in the US is all the evidence anyone should've ever needed for that.

Jaden

.......................................:boring2:

 

[MattPoland]

I don’t think it changes the narrative much. Short races mean anything can happen. It eliminates the story the the European B Team can stomp the USA A team 10 out of 10 times. But I kinda think this was the European B team as far as the cup goes. It proves to me what we saw in the USA already. Point-ranked events don’t produce the best Mosconi Cup players. Albin played flawless pool as a wildcard. Kaci and Kazakis folded bad. If they didn’t tank so hard, this match goes the other way. Heck, put Mario He, Chris Melling, or Joshua Filler in their places and I think USA loses. Look at AtLarge’s data, Ouschan, Shaw and Feijen played equal-to-better in most stats. And Kaci won’t stay a weak link for much longer.

I like what I see with Sky, Tyler and Billy. Lots of promise. We need more of them. We can’t keep going to the well with Deuel, Hatch, Morris, Archer and other veterans. Heck, the case for SVB has been challenged but we have a while longer still. So we definitely need more young blood to come up.


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[trob]

It doesn’t change much. Let’s see how they come back in the coming years. Can they maintain that high level of play. I think they will. We have two very young players that played lights out and our only going to get better. They euro’s have been much better in past years....period. The difference this year is when we had a chance to get out we did where in past years we didn’t and the Euro’s always seemed to take advantage of every mistake or break they got. I personally think the warm matches made a HUGE difference in thier preparation and confidence. I didn’t down play them at all. They were big wins. For now I’m going to enjoy our win and let the captain worry about next year.

 

[dkleather]

I think this does change the narrative. I agree with basement dweller re fundamentals. I look at this US Team and almost gone are the poor fundamentals of the past. They are shaping up more like snooker players and delivering the cue with more accuracy than I have send any US team in the past.

This is a great achievement from the captain and from all the players who bought into this over the last couple of years. I think this will increase the standards throughout the game as the Europeans will now realise they are up against a team as good as themselves and strive to improve.

I also think the US team showed a lot of team spirit and class which has also been lacking in the past.

 

[garczar]

Doubt it. Look at all the other players the Euros could play: Filler, Gorst, Chinahov, Makkinen, etc. I just think Europe in general is much deeper pool-talent wise than the U.S. Maybe having the Open in Vegas will generate some more pool interest here. Hope so 'cause our "feeder" system is lame compared to the Euro model.

 

[lfigueroa]

Who knows.

The table was wonky, and yeah I know both teams had to play on the same equipment, but if MR decides to tighten things up again I believe that will favor the Europeans. What I also saw, as discussed in another thread, was the US getting some rolls AND on several occasions not getting punished for missing some very makable shots.

Lastly, about the coaching, it sounds to me like, perhaps, this year the coach was given more latitude and resources than in previous years. (Renting a house around London for the players?) I certainly didn't see evidence of any change in technique or strategy from the US side as some posters are claiming. The US players played the way they play, to include Corey still having hallucinations during his shot selection. So I don't think it's knowable how much of an impact coaching had and whether you can attribute this year's success in that direction.

In any case, congrats to the team. Well done, particularly SVB, who finally got the MC monkey he's been carrying around off his back.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Swighey]

The Mosconi cup format is and always has been a toss up with players at this level

This is not true. There are many coin flip elements to the Mosconi Cup, as there are in all competitions of any kind. Understanding that also means understanding that the Mosconi Cup is best team wins.

 

[Swighey]

I also think the US team showed a lot of team spirit and class which has also been lacking in the past.

They played as a team. And their team spirit was a joy to watch. They get what the Mosconi Cup is about and I’m stoked for them.

 

[Black-Balled]

Imo, the cup has the perfect game and format for what it is...a stress laden event that could potentially be won be either team.

9b in itself is like a car race that is capped at low speed..a lotta people can be competitive. Add that to the short game total and you have a likely unpredictable outcome.

The only thing that detracts form the unpredictability is when one team jumps to a big lead and it gets toward the end, and I hav no idea how to circumvent that.

Good show, by jove.

 

[RickLafayette]

And then there's this: Sadly, there are members here who belong to a large segment of our population who will always talk smack about anything American. They don't support us in international play such as in the Olympics, or international soccer, et al, and pool is no exception. It's really a shame. They are so anti-American that their prejudice just automatically kicks in, regardless of who the players are. It's so fashionable in their circles to oppose American sports teams or players when the competition is a different nationality. The more anti-American stance they take, the more creds they have with others of their ilk.


Go USA. Well done.

 

[franko]

Yes

I think this does change the narrative. I agree with basement dweller re fundamentals. I look at this US Team and almost gone are the poor fundamentals of the past. They are shaping up more like snooker players and delivering the cue with more accuracy than I have send any US team in the past.

This is a great achievement from the captain and from all the players who bought into this over the last couple of years. I think this will increase the standards throughout the game as the Europeans will now realise they are up against a team as good as themselves and strive to improve.

I also think the US team showed a lot of team spirit and class which has also been lacking in the past.

I agree with all said here especially the last statement about team spirit.

 

[garczar]

And then there's this: Sadly, there are members here who belong to a large segment of our population who will always talk smack about anything American. They don't support us in international play such as in the Olympics, or international soccer, et al, and pool is no exception. It's really a shame. They are so anti-American that their prejudice just automatically kicks in, regardless of who the players are. It's so fashionable in their circles to oppose American sports teams or players when the competition is a different nationality. The more anti-American stance they take, the more creds they have with others of their ilk.


Go USA. Well done.

I follow and root for every American sport/player but sometimes you have to be a realist. I'd
love to see the U.S. go on a roll and win the MC 4-5 times on the trot but i just don't see it happening. If you look at the Euro method of bringing up talent its light-years ahead of anything we do here. Will that ever change? Who knows. We've got a long way to go in terms of developing talent in this game. Did you watch the AtlanticCup? We got our asses HAMMERED. "Nuff said.

 

[Jaden]

exactly...

This is not true. There are many coin flip elements to the Mosconi Cup, as there are in all competitions of any kind. Understanding that also means understanding that the Mosconi Cup is best team wins.

best TEAM wins. That hasn't been the argument by the American hating retards. Their argument has been that the euros are better players which is horseshit...

Jaden

 

[Get_A_Grip]

The coach stated in the post event interview that the team worked really hard for 6 months. That seemed to be his rationale for why they won this year. This of course begs the question -- did this team really prepare and work so much harder than previous teams? I really don't know. But if they did, then this seems like as good of a rationale as any for why they won this year.

 

[jokrswylde]

I have never bought into the idea that the Americans as a whole are light years behind the Europeans and Asians. And yes I realize we just got drilled in the amateur Atlantic Cup, but I think the young guns from the US acquitted themselves quite well.

Kacie, is world number 1 according to the Mosconi announcers. Is there anyone who thinks he is exponentially better than skyler? Justin? Thorpe? Heck maybe he wins a majority of the time against them, but it would be competitive.

How many other Tyler Styers are out there doing their thing in the bars and pool halls? Heck a lot of people think Dechaine would be top ten in the world if he dedicated himself to the game.

To quote Twain, the rumors of the death of American pool have been greatly exaggerated. I think Johan found the missing ingredient in getting our guys to come together as a team. The future is bright.