Dropping your elbow

[ENGLISH!]

He may mean near max velocity while accelerating

Maybe like what would be if a ball were not in the way.

Just kidding.

Acceleration is the change in velocity. So the greatest acceleration could be when the cue goes from zero at the 'pause' or change of direction to the midway point & may not actually be at contact although it could still be accelerating but just doing so at a slower rate of acceleration.

Or... with a certain wrist or finger action the cue could have it's highest rate of acceleration right before contact.

There is a term used in golf. It's tempo. There are players like Fred Couples that very slowly & gradually builds speed, sort of like a constant rate of acceleration. Then there are others that while not really much faster or even slower at impact make a much quicker swing. There rate of acceleration is most probably higher than Couples' but at at slower velocity at impact.

Just as there are many different golf swings, there are many pool strokes.

The thing is that the golf swings have been extensively studied. Any amateur golfer can walk into a Edwin Watts Golf Shop & have certain aspects of there golf swing analysed by computers.

Pool/Billiards is 'light years' behind golf... & tennis...& baseball, etc.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[BasementDweller]

I taught all my children how to walk without bending their knees. They look a little funny and all their friends make fun of them but their steps are so much more repeatable.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran,

I 'd like to hear and discuss your statement. It sounds interesting.

Best,
Mike

It is indeed very interesting. I studied it for quite awhile before I implemented into my game for certain shots. I've posted this before ---- that I trained myself to not drop my elbow, so this was a major change. I now have a fairly small repertoire of shots where I drop my elbow prior to contact. The results are awesome. I continue to experiment with that stroke and I may yet add more shots to my arsenal.

Someday, if we're in the same place at the same time, or can arrange to do so, I will be happy to show it to you and Rick (English) and some others who post here who I like. I won't discuss it here because there are too many people who whine and complain about it but never bothered to put in the time to experiment with it. But also, this is one of those things where demonstration is key.

 

[Mikjary]

It is indeed very interesting. I studied it for quite awhile before I implemented into my game for certain shots. I've posted this before ---- that I trained myself to not drop my elbow, so this was a major change. I now have a fairly small repertoire of shots where I drop my elbow prior to contact. The results are awesome. I continue to experiment with that stroke and I may yet add more shots to my arsenal.

Someday, if we're in the same place at the same time, or can arrange to do so, I will be happy to show it to you and Rick (English) and some others who post here who I like. I won't discuss it here because there are too many people who whine and complain about it but never bothered to put in the time to experiment with it. But also, this is one of those things where demonstration is key.

I understand what you're saying. These threads can be a pill for no reason at times. We have a roundabout connection with Gerry and Karen. I'll have to look forward to that information and instruction in the future. :thumbup:

Best,
Mike

 

[The Renfro]

It is indeed very interesting. I studied it for quite awhile before I implemented into my game for certain shots. I've posted this before ---- that I trained myself to not drop my elbow, so this was a major change. I now have a fairly small repertoire of shots where I drop my elbow prior to contact. The results are awesome. I continue to experiment with that stroke and I may yet add more shots to my arsenal.

Someday, if we're in the same place at the same time, or can arrange to do so, I will be happy to show it to you and Rick (English) and some others who post here who I like. I won't discuss it here because there are too many people who whine and complain about it but never bothered to put in the time to experiment with it. But also, this is one of those things where demonstration is key.

If I ever run into you at one of the events Fran I would love to see what YOU have found for yourself thru trial and effort....

I am of the old school of put a little on your plate and try something before you knock it... I alter my planes and attack angles constantly in efforts to make the cueball do what I want... The cue is a lever and your bridge hand is a fulcrum I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would think that dropping the back of the cue won't have an impact on force vectors....

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

He may mean near max velocity while accelerating

Well, if he's hitting the CB at near max velocity, that means he had to decelerate at some point in the stroke, whether or not he is accelerating the cue at the instant of impact. :wink:

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Ronnie O'Sullivan thinks of hitting the cue ball with his elbow.....many people can benefit from trying this technique, it works for me and many I've suggested it to over the last year.

I've always visualized hitting the CB with my back hand, but once you mentioned this I tried to visualize hitting it with my elbow and my stroke improved immediately. Whether or not I'm dropping my elbow before contact when doing this I'm not sure, but by looking at the cue in front of my bridge hand, I can see that my stroke is moving straighter when I do.

Thanks for bring this to our attention, it has been a great tip for me.:smile:

 

[ronlovespool]

Ive never been to an instructor... can you tell me why they teach not to drop the elbow.

Less moving parts less to go wrong.

 

[The Renfro]

Less moving parts less to go wrong.

Nah Easier to teach so the student goes away with something they can do out of the gate... They will develop their own stroke after they have hit enough balls... IMHO

 

[DTL]

.......................

 

[Bob Jewett]

Well, if he's hitting the CB at near max velocity, that means he had to decelerate at some point in the stroke, whether or not he is accelerating the cue at the instant of impact. :wink:

If you go by the standard definitions of acceleration and velocity used in physics, deceleration can only occur after the maximum velocity for anything like a normal stroke position/velocity/acceleration/time profile.

 

[DTL]

....................

 

[Pidge]

Try reading post #21. No one is insisting that dropping the elbow is inherently bad. If you would bother to notice, all of the arguing about it is because some people want to make statements that just aren't true. Like you have above.

Why some on here feel they always have to "take sides" on any issue, without comprehending what is actually stated about topics, is beyond me.

Just because I spent time describing how CTE works, all of a sudden I'm put into a "CTE camp" that must insist that any other method is not as good or doesn't work. Same here with the pendulum stroke. Just because I have stated in the past the benefits of it, and why instructors teach it, then I must be against dropping the elbow at any time for any reason. Few bother to even read what is actually said. It's just plain ridiculous.

You guys have at it. No point posting anything when most on here don't bother reading anyways. Have fun.

Neil, untwist your knickers and wipe your eyes. You're a grown man FFS.

I wasn't acknowledging anything you had said. It just so happens that you had taken offence by what I wrote because it doesn't agree with what you say. You do that a lot.

 

[FranCrimi]

If I ever run into you at one of the events Fran I would love to see what YOU have found for yourself thru trial and effort....

I am of the old school of put a little on your plate and try something before you knock it... I alter my planes and attack angles constantly in efforts to make the cueball do what I want... The cue is a lever and your bridge hand is a fulcrum I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would think that dropping the back of the cue won't have an impact on force vectors....

Right. I'll be happy to show you.

Think about this as you experiment:

Shooting with no elbow drop is a pulling motion.

Shooting with an elbow drop after contact is still a pulling motion up to and including contact.

Shooting with an elbow drop prior to contact is a pushing motion.

I think this is why so many non-droppers are resistant to the change, or even experimenting with it. Changing the feel of pulling to pushing puts you instantly out of your comfort zone. Most people won't even bother after a try or two. It feels too strange to them.

I'd like to know why all those people say it's okay to drop your arm after contact and that for some, it's natural for this to happen. To me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense how a player can change his armswing from pulling to pushing in the same stroke. I don't think it's natural at all. In fact, I think it's the hardest to do of the three possibilities --- not just that, but I think that it may even constitute a second stroke after contact.

 

[peter_gunn]

If I were teaching a beginner or intermediate player I'd want them to stroke the cue like this: see the 2 shots on the Blue and Yellow starting at 19:25 and ending at 19:43.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59E0cdnz_OI

he actually bend the cue on that yellow lol :yikes:

 

[dr_dave]

If you go by the standard definitions of acceleration and velocity used in physics, deceleration can only occur after the maximum velocity for anything like a normal stroke position/velocity/acceleration/time profile.

For those interested, here's a video demonstration (with super-slow-mo and measurements) that shows how velocity and acceleration change during typical strokes:

HSV B.40 - Stroke speed and acceleration analysis, with Bob Jewett

There often seems to be confusion with the terms velocity and acceleration. The video illustrates and demonstrates them fairly well.

For most good strokes, the speed is maximum and acceleration is actually close to zero at CB impact. There are actually speed-control benefits to doing this, and it actually comes naturally. As mentioned on my stroke acceleration resource page, what most people really mean by "accelerate into the ball" or "finish the stroke" is: "don't decelerate into the ball" (i.e., don't slow the cue before CB contact). Decelerating into the ball can result in very poor speed control.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Slh]

snooker players don't drop the elbow is just a myth. Most of them drop the elbow during the backstroke ( this keeps the cue level ) and after contacting the cueball.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

he actually bend the cue on thst yellow lol :yikes:

That's interesting! Pretty firm chin contact to do that.

 

[ENGLISH!]

snooker players don't drop the elbow is just a myth. Most of them drop the elbow during the backstroke ( this keeps the cue level ) and after contacting the cueball.

I think most call that a scissor stroke.

If one pushes the cue back & keeps the hand low, so as to also keep the butt end low & the cue more level than if the hand were to swing up, the elbow will lower. As the hand is pulled forward the elbow will rise.

Then on the forward stroke if the hand is again kept low to again keep the butt low & the cue more level than if the hand were to swing up, then the elbow will again lower.

To some it's very much about keeping the cue as level as possible & not rocking up & down like a seesaw.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
Rick

 

[dr_dave]

snooker players don't drop the elbow is just a myth. Most of them drop the elbow during the backstroke ( this keeps the cue level ) and after contacting the cueball.

I think most call that a scissor stroke.

FYI, most people (in the instructional pool world, anyway) call this a piston stroke.

Snooker players typically guide and keep the cue on the chest during the stroke to help create the piston action.

Regards,
Dave