Drug Testing?

[Snapshot9]

Too many issues ...

are at hand to try to deal with drug testing. I agree, it is
premature at this time. Even if they did do it, I think it
should be random, and only apply to the top 8 finishers,
who cares about the rest UNLESS they having someone
playing in the tournament that is obviously under the
influence of drugs, then that could fall under the random
testing regulation.
I have seen players so keyed up on natural juices though,
and they appear to be on drugs, but they aren't.
What about the players that do nothing during a tournament,
but test positive because they did some recreational drug
2 days before, and it is still in their system?

 

[Jimmy M.]

Now the ORG that is paying for the tests has to validate med info? 2nd opinion you say, at your own cost? How much does this club cost?
What do they ask...is the juice worth the squeeze?!

I think that, as a business decision for the IPT, it wouldn't be a bad idea to spend the money to ensure that all of their players are tested. If nothing else, to protect their own integrity - especially now in the early stages of its creation. The only people who won't want drug testing are the ones who use drugs. Otherwise, what would be the problem? Personally, I always like it when an employer requires drug screening. It lets me know that I won't be working in a bad environment (at least as far as drugs are concerned) and it also gives me the opportunity to show myself in a positive light to my new employer.

By the way, I'm really not sure what you were saying in your post. I was just answering the question "is the juice worth the squeeze".

 

[Jimmy M.]

And the question I asked before that went unanswered: If there is currently no problem drug(s) being used, why start any new problems in the shakey pool world by introducing testing?

Jeff Livingston

Your question makes an assumption based on no facts. How do you know if there are no drugs being used? I guess if your assumption were correct, then sure, why bother? Your assumption may or may not be correct though.

 

[onepocketchump]

Interesting comment, Shawn.

As a pro, could you tell me if drugs, that actually enhance players' abilities, are used in pro tournaments? And what are those drugs and exactly how do they enhance play? I use an herb and alcohol occasionally but I'd hardly call them "enhancement" drugs, but for some I suppose they could be.

I ask because I can't think of a good drug for improved pool, but I'm certainly no expert on the subject and have little contact with pro players to know what they prefer. Someone mentioned beta blockers for their calming abilities, but there's tons of products that can promote similar results, so should testing be done on everything that helps calm nerves and increase concentration (cigs, alcohol, ginseng, ginkgo, calcium, L-theanine, ashwagandha, beta sitosterol, L-tyrosine, B complex, etc. etc.) or just on some substances?

Since you want to see this implemented, may I ask you where would you draw the line and which products should be tested for?

Thanks,

Jeff Livingston

OMG are you kidding? Pain pills for one. They take away all fear and physical pain so you can be relaxed and loose. Speed can give you intense focus. Cocaine sharpens your senses. Valium relaxes you. I never really paid much attention to the amount of drug use among pool players but let me tell you that in the last few years I have seen that it is pretty rampant. I can't imagine the times I have had to fade a guy who is doing coke or meth and comes out shooting lights out.

I very much doubt that there are many top notchers who haven't tried to play juiced up. I never did until a few years ago when I ended up with a bulging disk and I discovered, through pain pills, what it's like to play free from pain and anxiety. It is definitely something attractive to anyone who plays this game competitively. But, the downside is that you can easily become dependent on the feeling and think that you need it to play. I try to play on the natural as much as possible. To me that is the best high that you can get is to win with no chemical help at all. Unfortunately I can somewhat understand why people do it.

One of the funniest stories I ever read was about Jimmy Reed agreeing to play Buddy Hall 6 ahead for 500. Jimmy pops some uppers and gets ready to play. Buddy wins the flip and runs a six pack on Jimmy, finishing just as the uppers are kicking in. Jimmy turns to Buddy and says, "that's the rottenst thing anyone has ever done to me."

As to drug testing in the IPT. Well, I suppose that given the premise of the main sponsor's platform, it would not be out of the realm of possiblilty to think that there would be some form of drug testing. Then again, I am sure that there is a natural substitute for whatever synthetic combination a player might want to take. Might be a good idea for those that choose that path to read the book.

 

[Black-Balled]

It is not an unreasonable policy at all, and the same standards are used in all sports, games, etc. Nobody is pointing fingers, it is just a necessary part of the procss. If you think its a joke, well I wont try to change your opinion. Im just presenting the facts that I have about the subject, don't shoot the messenger.

Oh no- I certainly wouldn't think you bear any of the accountability for the current standards/ policies!

The question, "To test or not?" is as simple to answer as ask...

 

[Jimmy M.]

I hop they do.
I might be the only player left on tour.
some players excluded, you know who you are.

I was thinking the same thing. There might be room left for me in that list of 150 after all if they start testing! LOL!

 

[2arm_bandit]

the problem is that if these guys know they're going to be tested then they can take a few days and the get the toxins out of their systems. lets face it, i would say the most popular drug around pool players is crystal meth. or atleast in my area it is, it takes 3 days (sometimes less) for crystal meth to be out of your system and then it appears that you're totally clean. except for the physical aspect of it. i just dont think its worth spending the money on testing so these guys can lay low a couple days, get clean for the test, and then start hittin the pipe again once they've been ok'd

 

[Jimmy M.]

Interesting comment, Shawn.

As a pro, could you tell me if drugs, that actually enhance players' abilities, are used in pro tournaments? And what are those drugs and exactly how do they enhance play?

LOL! Looking for something to try?

Desoxyn (or "desi's", as the pills are referred to as) was real popular. Take two of those and call me in the morning. Let me know how you did in the weekly tournament.

I had one player that I won't name tell me that he "won't go into the box without a 'desi'". Yeah, there are no problems. lol.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Here is a link to the World Confederation of Billiards Anti Doping Rules (ADR)


http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/Doping.pdf

It is not an unreasonable policy at all, and the same standards are used in all sports, games, etc. Nobody is pointing fingers, it is just a necessary part of the procss. If you think its a joke, well I wont try to change your opinion. Im just presenting the facts that I have about the subject, don't shoot the messenger.

Hi Blackjack,
It's your opinion that the IPT unifying with the IOC bureaucracy would be a good thing, not a fact. It's your right to have that opinion and I guess you'd get wide support from most quarters.

However, I think becoming a part of the IOC would be a big mistake. I would prefer to see the IOC go out of business. I believe their structure inhibits the growth of the sports that become heavily reliant upon them. There is plenty of evidence to support this idea too.

In the traditional Olympic sports, there has been a stiffling on entrepreneureal development. Athletics, swimming, gymnastics, and a bunch of others where athletes rarely get a chance to make any money out of their sport.

If pool were in the olympics we'd be lucky to see 1 minute of it in a highlights package. It would get lost among the crowd of low profile sports.

It connects political power to sports, a thing to be avoided I believe.

Regarding the drug testing issue, the IOC has been proven to have lied many times. Their anti-drug political campaign has probably led to the death of millions of people in the last 20 years through its effect on detering investment into research of enhancement drugs which have great potential in aiding recovery from disease, injury and surgery.

And yet the top athletes never stopped taking drugs, they've always been a step ahead of the slow-moving bureaucratic IOC.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

As to drug testing in the IPT. Well, I suppose that given the premise of the main sponsor's platform, it would not be out of the realm of possiblilty to think that there would be some form of drug testing. Then again, I am sure that there is a natural substitute for whatever synthetic combination a player might want to take. Might be a good idea for those that choose that path to read the book.

Interesting point. Considering the "Title" tour sponsor is "Natural Cures" it would certainly seem consistent or to their benefit to have documentation that their players are "on the natch".

 

[Blackjack]

Oh no- I certainly wouldn't think you bear any of the accountability for the current standards/ policies!

The question, "To test or not?" is as simple to answer as ask...

I provided a link to the World Confederation of Billiard Sports Ant-Doping Rules, did you read any of it? I say test. The standards call for the following to be tested:

5.7.1
a) The Winner
b) The athlete that establishes, ties, or breaks the World Record
c) A random selected ember of a team that wins
d) One or more athletes by random so that at least 3% of the athletes in each competition will be tested, or if there are more than 128 participants, at least 5 athletes.
e) Target testing as decided by the WCBS Board of Directors or its representative at a competition.

5.7.2
Athletes may be selected for out of competition testing through a process that substantiallycomplies with the international standard for testing in force at the time of the selection.

5.7.3
WCBS affiliated national federations and organizing committees for international competitions or events shall provide access to independent observers at events as directed by the WCBS.

The WCBS outline the international standards and also sets their own standards which can meet or exceed those standards. As Jimmy pointed out, it is to maintain the integrity of the competition, not to single people out and point fingers.

It s also important to point out that WPA recognizs these standards as well and is part of the World Confederation of Billiard Sports (refer to the organization chart). When Ian Anderson spoke out against the IPT in August, it was because the WPA falls in line with the WCBS policies and practices and must uphold that. Many are aying that the WPA wanted to get rich off the IPT (which isn't true), it goes much further than money, I have said that all along. Any money that goes into the WPA goes right back into the sport internationally. This would be a way for the IPT to help promote teh sport on a gloabal level. There are certain criteria that needs to be met internationally and all they are asking for is for the IPT follow the international guidelines. They have chosen not to. Here is a link to the entire statement issued by Ian Anderson, not the condensed version that was released by others, this is a link to the complete statement.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=localnews&newsid=42

In this statement Ian urges the international federations to "encouarge ITP to work together with us for everyone’s benefit."

Here is a quote from Ian's statement (08-19-05):
We have to make and amend policies to maintain our Olympic recognition, something which I’m sure you would all be aware is important to us. Many a nation receives benefits as a result of WPA’s membership to the IOC. Fortunate players from these countries are already receiving great assistance from their governments and National Olympic Committees and this number is growing all the time. And for any of you that may not count this as being so important, just ask the thoughts of players who took part in the recent World Games.

The hard work has already been done in laying down the foundation for this to become a reality. I am proud to ave been a part of that and I will continue to move forward to further assist in organizing billiards on the international and global level. One of the ways to help out from where you are at is to get involved yourself.This testing policy has been in place in international billiards for a very long time - its not new, nor is it intended to be intrusive. It is merey the standards that billiards (pocket billiards, snooker, carom bole) have to meet to be recognized by the National and International Olympic Committees. The Olympic Training Centers would welcome billiards, and I (and many others) believe we would be an excellent attraction, it would gain unmeasurable exposure, and it would greatly impact participation.

 

[Colin Colenso]

And the question I asked before that went unanswered: If there is currently no problem drug(s) being used, why start any new problems in the shakey pool world by introducing testing?

Jeff Livingston

Hi Jeff,
There are many drugs players take that they think helps their performance, or because they are addicted to some degree and can't perform up to their usual abilities without them. These range from marijuana, speed, coke to beer and cigarettes.

There are also a range of downners such as muscle relaxants, anti-depressents, pain killers etc that some can use to relieve nervousness.

The one drug I know that is sometimes used and was prevalent among similar sports such as archery and shooting is beta-blockers (such as propranolol), that basically block the production of adrenaline, helping people to stay calm in tense situations.

But I don't feel these substances have benefits to top level professionals who can deal with their nerves and don't want the negative influences of these drugs affecting their thinking during matches.

And to Jimmy, there are reasons for being against testing other than self-protection, as I have been trying to point out.

I have nothing to fear from it myself, I take no banned substances, but I have been involved in the process before in track and field and in pool in Australia where testing was brought in. The real effect was that it brought the police state one step closer to our doors. It spread suspicion, fear, distrust, wasted time and money and lost people jobs.

Getting long winded..time for a break

 

[CrownCityCorey]

LOL! Looking for something to try?

Desoxyn (or "desi's", as the pills are referred to as) was real popular. Take two of those and call me in the morning. Let me know how you did in the weekly tournament.

I had one player that I won't name tell me that he "won't go into the box without a 'desi'". Yeah, there are no problems. lol.

I was talking to Ryan McCreesh at the Derby in 2004 about a certain "Ohio-an" road player (nothing against the fine state of Ohio) that was constantly in action there. I played him twice some time back, mind you I certainly felt I "liked" the game having watched his run-out patterns and such. He would not play me right away. He left the poolroom and came back a few hours later and proceeded to drill me outta about $1200. Never missing a ball, running around the table like sprinter. His run out patterns still sucked, but he never missed. I played him again in Reno with the same scenario and lost another $400.

When I was talking with Ryan about it, we both agreed that if this player were "on the natch", he can flip it up anytime! However, he is never "on the natch"!

His enhancement of choice was obviously some sort of "speed". Don't know which one.

You know who Jimmy, he came & played Bryce in AZ a few years back.

The drugs they should look for are the illegal and prescription ones. If you have prescription ones in your system, then you must provide a legitimate medical reason (doctor's note) for it. If not, bye, bye

 

[Colin Colenso]

I (and many others) believe we would be an excellent attraction, it would gain unmeasurable exposure...

A most appropriate and ironic freudian slip.

I for once agree with you regarding the effect of joining the IOC...ROTF

Better the IPT then goes it alone and gains immeasurable exposure!

 

[Colin Colenso]

Interesting point. Considering the "Title" tour sponsor is "Natural Cures" it would certainly seem consistent or to their benefit to have documentation that their players are "on the natch".

Well, I think the opposite is true.

As Natural Cures is attacks the authority of the medical industry, it seems ridiculous to seek approval from these related bodies that would shut him down in a heartbeat if they could.

Keep Independent KT!

 

[Blackjack]

A most appropriate and ironic freudian slip.

I for once agree with you regarding the effect of joining the IOC...ROTF

Better the IPT then goes it alone and gains immeasurable exposure!

Instead of attacking semantics, stick with the isues, or is that too difficult? I am more than willing to have an intelligent conversation about this with intelligent people. If you want to be regarded as an intelligent person, then act as such. Don't try to throw the conversation in another direction, it just shows how much you truly know about the topic.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Instead of attacking semantics, stick with the isues, or is that too difficult? I am more than willing to have an intelligent conversation about this with intelligent people. If you want to be regarded as an intelligent person, then act as such. Don't try to throw the conversation in another direction, it just shows how much you truly know about the topic.

See my posts above directed to you which I believe fill the requirements of your request.

I think you are way off the boat in your faith in the IOC.

I don't intend to argue this in a vitriolic manner, but it is something I believe strongly in, and think you may change your mind about.

 

[rackmsuckr]

I have nothing to fear from it myself, I take no banned substances..

I'm like Colin. I take no banned substances or even prescription drugs at all and am very vocal about being anti-drug and nicotine. I only drink socially a couple times a year. I do however feel that, depending on how stringently they want to test, that it could go too far.

Usually, at the day's end of matches, people do congregate in the bar and relax and drink a few. We are not driving, most of us, and even if I do have my limit of 2 wines or champagnes, I start feeling the effects after only a couple sips. (I know, I'm a lightweight!) Given the example stated above where a 220 pound person can only drink 2 or 3 beers per hour to stay under the limit, that would be really hard for me to do. Detoxification can take a couple days before it is all out of the liver, not sure of the bloodstream.

If they were to test the next day, most people would fail. Are we then to never drink at these tournament venues, even after-hours? And I shudder to think what the smokers are going to think. Now there are only 2 reasons I can see to drug test - to enhance performance or on-the-job safety. The 3rd corollory reason is so that people don't act like idiots, which as we have all seen, some are going to do anyway. And I guess another would be to see who is breaking the law with illegal substances.

Whatever the IPT decides to do, it will be fine for me, but I'm not so sure about at least half of the other members. That number is high because of drinking and smoking, not because of illegal drug use. And if they are testing for legalized drugs - cigarettes and alcohol - then it seems a bit much.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

But I don't feel these substances have benefits to top level professionals who can deal with their nerves and don't want the negative influences of these drugs affecting their thinking during matches.

The above statement seemed a little naive. At this moment in pro pool the use of drugs for performance enhancement and recreation is widespread. Yes Colin, even in the top ranks.

Ideally, (and perhaps in other more profitable sports) the top level athletes of a sport would be clean and enjoy the greater long term benefits of that. However, Pool Player athletes are relatively short sighted. I believe due to the financial state of Pro Pool.

The negative influences you speak of don't come in to play within the matches. They come in to play in the rest of their lives (health, family and home).

All most of the guys out there know is, that they need to win this match to make it to the next tournament and that takes precedent. I don't blame any of them for what they do, however it needs to stop somewhere and sometime, why not now!?!

 

[rackmsuckr]

I'm like Colin. I take no banned substances or even prescription drugs at all and am very vocal about being anti-drug and nicotine. I only drink socially a couple times a year. I do however feel that, depending on how stringently they want to test, that it could go too far.

Usually, at the day's end of matches, people do congregate in the bar and relax and drink a few. We are not driving, most of us, and even if I do have my limit of 2 wines or champagnes, I start feeling the effects after only a couple sips. (I know, I'm a lightweight!) Given the example stated above where a 220 pound person can only drink 2 or 3 beers per hour to stay under the limit, that would be really hard for me to do. Detoxification can take a couple days before it is all out of the liver, not sure of the bloodstream.

If they were to test the next day, most people would fail. Are we then to never drink at these tournament venues, even after-hours? And I shudder to think what the smokers are going to think. Now there are only 2 reasons I can see to drug test - to enhance performance or on-the-job safety. The 3rd corollory reason is so that people don't act like idiots, which as we have all seen, some are going to do anyway. And I guess another would be to see who is breaking the law with illegal substances.

Whatever the IPT decides to do, it will be fine for me, but I'm not so sure about at least half of the other members. That number is high because of drinking and smoking, not because of illegal drug use. And if they are testing for legalized drugs - cigarettes and alcohol - then it seems a bit much.

Just to prove my point, here is a picture of Allsion, Jennifer Chen and others relaxing with alcohol (I actually did NOT have anything in my hands, even though it looks like it!) and Helena was also at the table. What would have happened if they had been tested the next day???