Efren Reyes vs. Ronnie Allen

thebighurt said:
Just FYI Jay, Buddy Hall also told me efren is the best 1 pocket player ever.
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I have no problem with that comment and I totally respect Buddy's opinion.
I just don't happen to agree, for many of the reasons mentioned on this post.
Ronnie was a unique talent and competitor. And it took more than pure ability to beat him. IMHO
 
gulfportdoc said:
Jerry, Millikens was the joint in Bellflower, wasn't it?

Doc
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No, it was in Norwalk.

The Billiard Palace was in Bellflower. Originally opened by Verne Peterson, the great 14.1 player. And then Butch ? took it over in the late 60's.
 
Ronnie's kicking ability

I got a lot of heat on this one part of my post and I want to explain my reasoning here. You got a moment.

Yes, Efren kicks better and more accurately than anyone ever in my opinion. But in One Pocket, Ronnie used kicking as an offensive weapon (of mass destruction). He understood how to kick into the pack and send balls toward his hole better than anyone else by far. To see him kick two rails out of the corner and into the bottom of the pack, and send multiple balls rolling toward his hole was pure Pool wizardry. And he could kick two and three rails from out of his own hole and reverse the game. It was unbelievable to watch what he could do, AND DID!

To this day, I have never seen anything like it. You (we) have all seen Efren's amazing kicking ability. He absolutely revolutionized Pool! But unless you saw Ronnie play one Pocket and kick balls, you really shouldn't tell me I'm crazy. He had the ability to kick balls toward his hole and hide the cue ball. Who do you see shooting these shots today?

I stand by my statement that no one kicked better than Ronnie at One Pocket. And in his prime, I would have bet on Ronnie against Godzilla. Between his amazing ability, his gift of gab and enormous heart, he was unbeatable for years. And the bigger the bet, the better he played.

On a personal level, I have much more respect for Efren. But that is not the purpose of this post, is it.
 
jay helfert said:
I have no problem with that comment and I totally respect Buddy's opinion.
I just don't happen to agree, for many of the reasons mentioned on this post.
Ronnie was a unique talent and competitor. And it took more than pure ability to beat him. IMHO
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Danny Diliberto also thinks Efren is the best 1 pocket player ever.
 
thebighurt said:
Do you really think Ronnie would have given Cliff 8-7 9-7 like Efren. Think about it
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Yep, but Cliff couldn't bet enough as the spot got up there the bet had to also.
 
Island Drive said:
Yep, but Cliff couldn't bet enough as the spot got up there the bet had to also.
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I love these guys that live in the past. Not only Ronnie wouldn't have beaten efren, he could not of beaten Jose in his prime.
 
Mike Carella

thebighurt said:
Do you really think Ronnie would have given Cliff 8-7 9-7 like Efren. Think about it
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Ronnie gave Mike Carella 9 to 7 in California. Before that Carella was spotting guys in Detroit 30 to 6 and 50 to 12 playing one pocket and running 20 and 25balls in one pocket. Even I dont believe it and I know it happened.
the Beard
 
freddy the beard said:
Ronnie gave Mike Carella 9 to 7 in California. Before that Carella was spotting guys in Detroit 30 to 6 and 50 to 12 playing one pocket and running 20 and 25balls in one pocket. Even I dont believe it and I know it happened.
the Beard
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Carella was not near the same player outside the Congress playing top players. at the Congress Ronnie might not of won even. When you are playing cripples 30 to 6 and 50 12 it does not matter what room your playing, but when you are playing a champion that is a different story
 
jay helfert said:
I stand by my statement that no one kicked better than Ronnie at One Pocket. And in his prime, I would have bet on Ronnie against Godzilla. Between his amazing ability, his gift of gab and enormous heart, he was unbeatable for years. And the bigger the bet, the better he played.
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Gotta agree with you, Jay. Ronnie would have shaken Efren up so bad, he'd be standing there scratching his head, trying to remember his backer's phone number.:D

Doc
 
thebighurt said:
Danny Diliberto also thinks Efren is the best 1 pocket player ever.
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Once again, I am not necessarily disagreeing. I just think Ronnie had some unique talents and may have surprised even a great player like Efren.

In my opinion. great as Efren is, he would not be a lock over R.A. circa 1970's to early 80's.
 
thebighurt said:
I love these guys that live in the past. Not only Ronnie wouldn't have beaten efren, he could not of beaten Jose in his prime.
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Hey, in my opinion, Jose in his prime was maybe the best money player ever, Efren included. Maybe we can agree on that.

Unless you saw Ronnie in his prime, then it is hard to gauge their respective abilities.
 
thebighurt said:
And as far as betting, Efren would make Ronnie bet so high the piss would swell up in Ronnies eyes
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You couldn't bet high enough to make Ronnie happy. Only better gambler than him I ever saw was Cornbread. And that's a close call.
 
gulfportdoc said:
Gotta agree with you, Jay. Ronnie would have shaken Efren up so bad, he'd be standing there scratching his head, trying to remember his backer's phone number.:D

Doc
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These guys don't get it. The opinion I'd like to hear is from Jersey Red and Kelly, the next two best, outside of Chicago. Gotta stay on Freddie's good side. i may need to bite him in Lousiville.
 
jay helfert said:
These guys don't get it. The opinion I'd like to hear is from Jersey Red and Kelly, the next two best, outside of Chicago. Gotta stay on Freddie's good side. i may need to bite him in Lousiville.
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These debates are entertaining but they settle nothing. I believe there are far more top players in the world today than 30 years ago. There may not be as many colorful characters from the world of gambling, but there are more top players, and I won't bother arguing it. I still say the better all-round player would emerge as the best one-pocket player - if he played it as much as the one-hole specialist. One-pocket is as good as any game, maybe better - but it's a specialty game, easier to dominate than games that are popular and played by more people.

Tommy Joe
 
I am a die hard Efren fan. I love to watch him play and I also admire his demeanor at the table. However, that said, Ronnie did possess a tremendous heart. It's hard to really guage just how good someone is if they don't have an opponent that takes them to the edge of the cliff.

Ali had Frazier. Joe louis had Billy Conn. Tiger has Mickelson and others. Ronnie had Red, Bugs, Taylor and others. Efren really doesn't have one player that can take him to the edge of the cliff. Speaking of Cliff, he's supposed to be the second best 1h player right now and he didn't even get Efren close to the cliff.

I feel like Ronnie probably had more gamble in him than Efren does. I don't think that's Efren's fault because he doesn't have anyone to test him. One thing about Efren though, he's over 50 and he's still pretty damn strong. Being in those gambling wars like Ronnie was didn't do him any favors in the health dept.

If the Efren of today would have played the Ronnie of the mid 70's, early 80's, I would put my money on Ronnie the first match up. The second time they met, I'd flip a coin. The third time they played, I just don't know but one of them would start beating the other, I think.
 
Rickw said:
I am a die hard Efren fan. I love to watch him play and I also admire his demeanor at the table. However, that said, Ronnie did possess a tremendous heart. It's hard to really guage just how good someone is if they don't have an opponent that takes them to the edge of the cliff.

Ali had Frazier. Joe louis had Billy Conn. Tiger has Mickelson and others. Ronnie had Red, Bugs, Taylor and others. Efren really doesn't have one player that can take him to the edge of the cliff. Speaking of Cliff, he's supposed to be the second best 1h player right now and he didn't even get Efren close to the cliff.

I feel like Ronnie probably had more gamble in him than Efren does. I don't think that's Efren's fault because he doesn't have anyone to test him. One thing about Efren though, he's over 50 and he's still pretty damn strong. Being in those gambling wars like Ronnie was didn't do him any favors in the health dept.

If the Efren of today would have played the Ronnie of the mid 70's, early 80's, I would put my money on Ronnie the first match up. The second time they met, I'd flip a coin. The third time they played, I just don't know but one of them would start beating the other, I think.
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For those of you with amnesia Ronnie could not beat Bugs. Bugs robbed!! him for $ 20,000 in Detroit around 1979
 
thebighurt said:
For those of you with amnesia Ronnie could not beat Bugs. Bugs robbed!! him for $ 20,000 in Detroit around 1979
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It amazes me that you people don't realize that you are witnessing the greatest pool player that ever lived right before your eyes and you don't want to admit it. I would love to see kevin trudeau put up $ 1,000,000 for anyone that breaks Mosconis 526 run in straight pool. Within 1 month efren would put up an unbelievable and unreachable number. It is real simple, with 15 balls on the table he is the best that ever lived.
 
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