Efren Reyes vs. Ronnie Allen

[Deadon]

Jay;

Correct me if I am wrong. I played alot in the late 60s and though the 70s, primarily on the West Coast. I have seen Ronnie play many times, and all games. I remember that because of the way Ronnie played, so offensive, the players from the East/South had little respect for his game for many years. Although the game has changed, more offensive, that notion is still still alive to some extent today, as I hear many people talk about the defensive moves dominating the game. Perhaps some of the older East/South players still haven't figured it out yet.

BTW, can't recall hearing Ronnie lose 20K to Bugs in 1979, perhaps the spot was to much. Do you know about that?

Mike

 

[Deadon]

It amazes me that you people don't realize that you are witnessing the greatest pool player that ever lived right before your eyes and you don't want to admit it. I would love to see kevin trudeau put up $ 1,000,000 for anyone that breaks Mosconis 526 run in straight pool. Within 1 month efren would put up an unbelievable and unreachable number. It is real simple, with 15 balls on the table he is the best that ever lived.

I would agree with that, and I have seen Efren play many times. Put up enough money and his game will go up a notch. Endurance nowadays, I don't know.

 

[freddy the beard]

No spot

Jay;


BTW, can't recall hearing Ronnie lose 20K to Bugs in 1979, perhaps the spot was too much. Do you know about that?

Mike

It may have been later than 79', I'm not sure. But there was NO SPOT involved. They played even. I think Ronnie may have then won the next day. I cant recall. I will have to ask Bugs.

the Beard

 

[ironman]

It amazes me that you people don't realize that you are witnessing the greatest pool player that ever lived right before your eyes and you don't want to admit it. I would love to see kevin trudeau put up $ 1,000,000 for anyone that breaks Mosconis 526 run in straight pool. Within 1 month efren would put up an unbelievable and unreachable number. It is real simple, with 15 balls on the table he is the best that ever lived.

I believe that a lot of players today could run 526 on a 4x8 table. What is the point.

 

[ironman]

It may have been later than 79', I'm not sure. But there was NO SPOT involved. They played even. I think Ronnie may have then won the next day. I cant recall. I will have to ask Bugs.

the Beard

But, who did beat Bugs in those days. I was recently in Detroit and John Henry simply wore me out telling me stories about Bugs. The fact that anyone had the stones to play Bugs in those days amazes me.
Was Ronnie the best? Or, how about Jersey Red, Efren, Ed Kelly, Eddie Taylor, Grady, or a few others? I have been lucky in my lifetime to have seen them all play, & I sure would like to lock them all uup in one room and well, see what happens.

 

[KCarson]

Ronnie Fan

Its great to look back on RA's era and hear stories about the players from that time. What a match it would be. As much as I like RA and the aura that surrounds him, I can't help but remember that Color of Money match between Efren and Strickland. They played a long time and even with the Strickland chit-chat going on, Efren came through. Efren is without a doubt that greatest all around player that ever lived. Again, what a match it would be!

 

[Island Drive]

Its great to look back on RA's era and hear stories about the players from that time. What a match it would be. As much as I like RA and the aura that surrounds him, I can't help but remember that Color of Money match between Efren and Strickland. They played a long time and even with the Strickland chit-chat going on, Efren came through. Efren is without a doubt that greatest all around player that ever lived. Again, what a match it would be!

Comapartive to Earl, didn't Varner a few years back go to the Phillipines and play Efren over a three day period and beat him in 9-Ball?

 

[hemicudas]

Prime

Ronnie Allen's prime was late 60s through the 70s. It is totally conceivable that Buggs could have beaten him, playing even, in the 80s. But,,,who won every match they ever played? No one. How many people do you think could say, "Buggs beat me"? A ton. There is a good reason he too is in the OPHOF. From the original class of OPHOF inductees, who got the most votes? Ronnie Allen. There is a good reason. The people voting on the first inductees had/have seen them all play. They thought Ronnie was the best.

I too believe Efren is the greatest cueist in the history of the game. I believe he could have, at any time in his playing career, broken the 526 record on a 4X8, had he tried. I agree that a hand-full of others, John Scnmidt's, speed and up could beat that record on a 4X8.

 

[Egg McDogit]

off topic...but has anyone seen Bustamante play 1-pocket? he's another guy that knows too much and can execute anything

 

[TannerPruess]

off topic...but has anyone seen Bustamante play 1-pocket? he's another guy that knows too much and can execute anything

In 1999 at the Hardtimes Summer Jamboree, Bustamante played Reyes. IIRC, Reyes won, it has been a while since I watched that one.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Comapartive to Earl, didn't Varner a few years back go to the Phillipines and play Efren over a three day period and beat him in 9-Ball?

Was that 3-days?
I thought it was one tv match back in 93' or early 94.
Efren won the US Open against Nick in '94 as payback.

 

[thebighurt]

There is only one real way to determine who was the greatest when athletes are from different times. That is how well you dominated your era. Older players in general are always going to look back at their contemporaries and say they were better than current players. Top pool players have tons of pride just like any top athletes, and it takes alot for some of them to step back and say the current players are better than when they played. It is not even clear who the best one pocket player of the 60's and 70's is. How many Johnson City 1 pocket titles did Ronnie have? Efren wins the Derby City 1 pocket every year he plays plus there is no doubt he is by far dominant in 1 pocket over all of today's players, it is not even close.

 

[ironman]

Ronnie Allen's prime was late 60s through the 70s. It is totally conceivable that Buggs could have beaten him, playing even, in the 80s. But,,,who won every match they ever played? No one. How many people do you think could say, "Buggs beat me"? A ton. There is a good reason he too is in the OPHOF. From the original class of OPHOF inductees, who got the most votes? Ronnie Allen. There is a good reason. The people voting on the first inductees had/have seen them all play. They thought Ronnie was the best.

I too believe Efren is the greatest cueist in the history of the game. I believe he could have, at any time in his playing career, broken the 526 record on a 4X8, had he tried. I agree that a hand-full of others, John Scnmidt's, speed and up could beat that record on a 4X8.

Dang. Thanks $Bill. That is what I was trying to say.

 

[bartolus]

RA in 1970's

I first saw RA in 1971 at a straight pool tournament at Weenie Beenie's place Jack and Jill in Virginia. Wimpy was there, along with Richie Florence, Mizerak, Pete Margo, Squirrel, Earl Shriver, Nick Varner, Boston Shorty, Mike Sigel, Eddie Taylor, and others. After midnight there was action, including some one-pocket between Richie Florence and RA. It was the first time I had seen someone do things on the pool table that I could not imagine being done and didn't understand at all how they were done. RA ran out from everywhere, usually like one or two balls after the break. He would look at something in the stack which no one else even considered and bang the pack open and as the waves parted a ball would either trickle back into his pocket or rocket across the table one rail and that was it. He did the same thing one handed in the air playing against good shortstops, which were plentiful at that time, two handed. No one would think of playing him without an outrageous spot. He cut balls backwards one handed from frozen on the rail down the table, butsted up the pack three rails and ran out time and again. After watching for about four or five hours I realized that I wasn't playing the same game

 

[Island Drive]

There is only one real way to determine who was the greatest when athletes are from different times. That is how well you dominated your era. Older players in general are always going to look back at their contemporaries and say they were better than current players. Top pool players have tons of pride just like any top athletes, and it takes alot for some of them to step back and say the current players are better than when they played. It is not even clear who the best one pocket player of the 60's and 70's is. How many Johnson City 1 pocket titles did Ronnie have? Efren wins the Derby City 1 pocket every year he plays plus there is no doubt he is by far dominant in 1 pocket over all of today's players, it is not even close.

I don't think Ronnie ever really cared about the tournament stats, he used them as a platform for business, and there weren't many one hole tourneys that I recall + in Johnston City if I remember correctly it was a race to 3 which is pretty short for the caliber of players from the depression era.

 

[gulfportdoc]

There is only one real way to determine who was the greatest when athletes are from different times. That is how well you dominated your era. Older players in general are always going to look back at their contemporaries and say they were better than current players. Top pool players have tons of pride just like any top athletes, and it takes alot for some of them to step back and say the current players are better than when they played. It is not even clear who the best one pocket player of the 60's and 70's is. How many Johnson City 1 pocket titles did Ronnie have? Efren wins the Derby City 1 pocket every year he plays plus there is no doubt he is by far dominant in 1 pocket over all of today's players, it is not even close.

I don't believe the original proposition was which player would prevail in a tournament match. In the 60's no one could make a living playing tournaments. Tournaments were basically what drew players together to gamble after hours. Playing for cash and playing for glory (at Coolie dough) are two very different things. The current Hold'em tournament fad is a good example. There are some excellent tournament players who simply can't cut it when it comes to playing for real money in a cash game.

If you never had the opportunity to see Ronnie Allen play in his prime for big money, not titles, then you have no way to judge the outcome between these two players. I'm not suggesting that Efren can't play well for cash; but Allen in his prime would have been better than even money to get the cheese.

Doc

 

[jay helfert]

Jay;

Correct me if I am wrong. I played alot in the late 60s and though the 70s, primarily on the West Coast. I have seen Ronnie play many times, and all games. I remember that because of the way Ronnie played, so offensive, the players from the East/South had little respect for his game for many years. Although the game has changed, more offensive, that notion is still still alive to some extent today, as I hear many people talk about the defensive moves dominating the game. Perhaps some of the older East/South players still haven't figured it out yet.

BTW, can't recall hearing Ronnie lose 20K to Bugs in 1979, perhaps the spot was to much. Do you know about that?

Mike

Funny things happened in Detroit at The Rack. Check with Freddie, but Ronnie may have played 9-8 and 10-8. He did lose a couple of other times too. Marvin Henderson beat him right after he won the World Title in Vegas.
They played a Race To Five for $6,000 and Marvin won easily, like 6-2 or 3.
It was a gimmick game in that Marvin had played for weeks on the table and Ronnie walked in fresh and hit balls for maybe 15 minutes.

Afterward Ronnie tried several times to get Marvin to play an Ahead Set for 10K but Marvin was busy visiting the bars of Hollywood. I know because I was with him many nights. Ronnie did beat Taylor playing even in Vegas in either '69 or '70. They played 500 a game and Ronnie won six or seven games. I vaguely remember Ronnie talking about a match with Bugs. In fact I'm sure they played a few times. I just put a call in to him and will report after we talk.

My recollection is that even the East Coast guys like Jersey Red, Shorty and Ervolino had a lot of respect for Ronnie's ability. No one was jumping to play him. Before Ronnie, an even better player may have been Clem, who was a defensive specialist with offensive capabilities. And the old timers like Beenie and Earl Shriver put Philadelphia Rags (White Rags/John Fitzpatrick) on a pedestal as the best ever in the 50's.

 

[jay helfert]

It may have been later than 79', I'm not sure. But there was NO SPOT involved. They played even. I think Ronnie may have then won the next day. I cant recall. I will have to ask Bugs.

the Beard

You ask Bugs and I'll ask Ronnie and we'll see how the stories jibe. That should be fun.

 

[jay helfert]

I first saw RA in 1971 at a straight pool tournament at Weenie Beenie's place Jack and Jill in Virginia. Wimpy was there, along with Richie Florence, Mizerak, Pete Margo, Squirrel, Earl Shriver, Nick Varner, Boston Shorty, Mike Sigel, Eddie Taylor, and others. After midnight there was action, including some one-pocket between Richie Florence and RA. It was the first time I had seen someone do things on the pool table that I could not imagine being done and didn't understand at all how they were done. RA ran out from everywhere, usually like one or two balls after the break. He would look at something in the stack which no one else even considered and bang the pack open and as the waves parted a ball would either trickle back into his pocket or rocket across the table one rail and that was it. He did the same thing one handed in the air playing against good shortstops, which were plentiful at that time, two handed. No one would think of playing him without an outrageous spot. He cut balls backwards one handed from frozen on the rail down the table, butsted up the pack three rails and ran out time and again. After watching for about four or five hours I realized that I wasn't playing the same game

That's what I'm talking about. And I watched that shit for 15 years. Never saw anything like it before or since. And yes, Efren IS the greatest cueist ever. But Ronnie wrote the book on One Pocket and Efren is still on chapter five. When the balls are open, Efren is unbeatable. But in the beginning of the game, Ronnie owned the balls and the table. And when he got a shot (or even without one) it was game over, ten and out.

 

[jay helfert]

I don't think Ronnie ever really cared about the tournament stats, he used them as a platform for business, and there weren't many one hole tourneys that I recall + in Johnston City if I remember correctly it was a race to 3 which is pretty short for the caliber of players from the depression era.

You are correct. The BIG money was in the backroom, and that's where Ronnie was King. He was known to snooze a match while he was playing someone out back. They would come back to get him for the match, and he would say "Let him have it".