Efren's 3 way shot!!

I have to agree

hemicudas said:
I said this in an earlier post, Tom but will iterate here. Efren tried to throw the 6 ball in off the frozen 3 ball. He knew it didn't have to go, very tough angle. So, he looked at the billiard on the 5 ball, even pointing to the spot he had to hit with the cue ball to make it. He hit the shot with the proper speed that would bring the 3 ball off the rail and into the open so as to not be hooked on it. As you know, all Efren needs is to be able to see the object ball, which he made and ran out. Bottom line is he tried to make the 6 ball and the 5 ball.
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I just got back from a couple of days at DCC. I was watching Efren again, as usual if he's nearby. I watched him giving up some weight in one pocket to some guy I didn't know. Always something new when you watch him play.
Not that this will do any good Bill, but I agree totally with your opinion on this shot. He was playing the 6, with the billiard on the 5. His billiard background, and his precision with cue ball, gives him great odds on that 5 ball.
 
I'm no Efren, but I have played that 5 ball shot, usually when it is the 9. :D I do believe he wanted to guarantee a shot and by the way he went down to look at the 5, I have to think he intended to pocket it and the 6, and possibly the 3 as well.
 
rackmsuckr said:
I'm no Efren, but I have played that 5 ball shot, usually when it is the 9. :D I do believe he wanted to guarantee a shot and by the way he went down to look at the 5, I have to think he intended to pocket it and the 6, and possibly the 3 as well.
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I agree with you 100%, Linda. He could have even been playing the 3 ball in the side but he did it with such speed that if it didn't go it would bounce out enough to be available to shoot. This shot could easily be, as stated, a 3 way shot. If all three balls had fallen he was straight in on the 7 ball. There should be one thing we can all agree on, Efren is the greatest cueist in any of our lifetimes.
 
Well, I think I'm gonna reverse my position on this. I am now going to say that he was playing the 3.

I watched the initial video on another computer, and it for some reason didn't show the top of the screen. After seeing all this debate, I decided to take another look. His eyes, which were now visible to me, go right to the 3 ball in the side. I can't imagine why he would do this if he weren't playing it... it's just natural to follow the ball that you are aiming for.

Another clue is the speed with which he plays it... originally, I figured he was looking to miss the 5 and go 3 rails to center, but he clearly did not hit it with enough force to do this. If he weren't going for the 3, he'd have to play position on it, and he's obviously not doing it at that speed.

So if he makes the 3, he'll either have position on the hanging five, or possibly some sort of position on the 6 (which he expected to either make or hang) if he also makes the 5.

For me, the two major clues are his eyes and the speed.

- Steve
 
Never ever argue with any of us old timers on what Efren did! Bill is 1000% correct! I once saw efren play one pocket giving up weight to a good one pocket player in 1988 he never ever missed a ball,bank,combo,or billiard at his pocket. The only time he had to give up his inning, he never made a ball on the break or played bad shape. Yes people, he was capable of misjudging the speed of a table back then. This went on for 10 hours straight, nothing but pure torture for Buddy Dennis and his stake horse, went off for 10k. All he kept saying to me was you dont understand how good Buddy plays one pocket. When it was over I reminded my friend who staked Buddy that he did not over estimate Buddy's game but he sure as hell underestimated the great play of Efren! I only charged him a dime on the side for his error.:D
 
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Steve Lipsky said:
Well, I think I'm gonna reverse my position on this. I am now going to say that he was playing the 3.

I watched the initial video on another computer, and it for some reason didn't show the top of the screen. After seeing all this debate, I decided to take another look. His eyes, which were now visible to me, go right to the 3 ball in the side. I can't imagine why he would do this if he weren't playing it... it's just natural to follow the ball that you are aiming for.

Another clue is the speed with which he plays it... originally, I figured he was looking to miss the 5 and go 3 rails to center, but he clearly did not hit it with enough force to do this. If he weren't going for the 3, he'd have to play position on it, and he's obviously not doing it at that speed.

So if he makes the 3, he'll either have position on the hanging five, or possibly some sort of position on the 6 (which he expected to either make or hang) if he also makes the 5.

For me, the two major clues are his eyes and the speed.

- Steve
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I'm not lucky enough to be able to view the video, but this is definitelyt possible, and the key point here is how Efren felt about the six. As I noted in my last post in this thread:

sjm said:
.....if you start with the assumption that Efren knew that the six and three would miss, you can at least begin to consider the possibility that he played the carom five, but, even then, it's still iffy, as the carom three (possibly with draw to change the carom angle) in the side looks the easier of the two available caroms, and offered far better position prospects....
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Hence, I'm buying that if Efren wasn't sure about the six, he would play the three over the five. If he had his doubts about both the three and the six, and it sure is hard to imagine Efen being uncertain of two things on any shot in his entire playing career, then playing the five made more sense, for the exact reason noted by Hemicudas, to maximize his likelihood of retaining control of the table.
 
I neither know what Effren was thinking nor I have the ability to guess what he might be thinking.But it definitely appeared like Effren was targetting the 5 ball than anything else.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Well, I think I'm gonna reverse my position on this. I am now going to say that he was playing the 3.

I watched the initial video on another computer, and it for some reason didn't show the top of the screen. After seeing all this debate, I decided to take another look. His eyes, which were now visible to me, go right to the 3 ball in the side. I can't imagine why he would do this if he weren't playing it... it's just natural to follow the ball that you are aiming for.

Another clue is the speed with which he plays it... originally, I figured he was looking to miss the 5 and go 3 rails to center, but he clearly did not hit it with enough force to do this. If he weren't going for the 3, he'd have to play position on it, and he's obviously not doing it at that speed.

So if he makes the 3, he'll either have position on the hanging five, or possibly some sort of position on the 6 (which he expected to either make or hang) if he also makes the 5.

For me, the two major clues are his eyes and the speed.

- Steve
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Yes, I have a convert! :p

Good point on the speed, BTW.
 
I watched that a few times the other night. I happen to agree with Steve. First off I don't think Efrin believes the 6 will go. I also think he may have been caught up in two balls at once. Even this could happen to the great Efrin. He shoots this a little to firm for the 6. I think he did this to get whitey down table in case he missed the three.

It appears a soft draw shot could have made the three and the six but then it is a dead sell out if he misses. We'll never know but I think he may have had a bit of lady luck on his side, however he slam dunked that three in no problem. Darn good out no matter his original intentions.

Rod
 
its clear it was a 2 way shot the 3 or 6 if either one goes in he is golden, the fact they both went was luck, i'm not taking anything away from the shot he is the greatest player ever-i have said that since i first saw him but, i'm not going to make more out of it than it is, if it was a hill-hill shot then yes perhaps more thought would have went into it. he jacked up on the 2 and then came off the shot and jacked up again, he tried to break them up and didnt he screwed that up-granted it is a hard shot because the 2 is frozen, so when he didnt and the balls were tied up it was a 2 way shot, nothing more or less, the 5 in the side wasnt in the plan the pocket happened to be there-if it went then mike massy has a new trick shot to learn.
 
sjm said:
Let's add ...all these table talk threads are making the forum a little more fun, I hope others will follow the lead of myself, cuetable, and onepocket73 by posting some thought-provoking shots.
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I concur!:D
 
Nice Pics

cuetable said:
I will ask him at his first free convience.. :)

Btw, I just put up 4 snapshots of this evening here:
http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=249#post249
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Nice pics, cuetable. Thanks for posting them. I also agree with, SJM, this is a great thread. Threads like this make people think. How many of you guys have tried to set up this shot and shoot it yourselves? If you haven't, do. It can only improve your game.

For those who aren't sure how to throw a frozen ball, freeze two balls together. Point the non-object ball straight in a pocket. Put your cue ball a foot or two behind the object ball, also straight in. Forget about english. Hit the object ball dead center. If you have it set up straight in it will go in the pocket. Set it up again, same way. Again, using no english, hit it the object ball on the edge, either side, and watch how the non-object ball reacts. If it is set up far from the pocket, the ball will not go in. It will throw to one side or the other. It is not the english that throws frozen balls. It is what side you hit the object ball on.

I would like to thank all the posters on this thread for showing such class. It is great to have a discussion/debate about a shot without name calling. Thank all of youzzzz guys.
 
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hemicudas said:
Nice pics, cuetable. Thanks for posting them. I also agree with, SJM, this is a great thread. Threads like this make people think. How many of you guys have tried to set up this shot and shoot it yourselves? If you haven't, do. It can only improve your game.

For those who aren't sure how to throw a frozen ball, freeze two balls together. Point the non-object ball straight in a pocket. Put your cue ball a foot or two behind the object ball, also straight in. Forget about english. Hit the object ball dead center. If you have it set up straight in it will go in the pocket. Set it up again, same way. Again, using no english, hit it the object ball on the edge, either side, and watch how the non-object ball reacts. If it is set up far from the pocket, the ball will not go in. It will throw to one side or the other. It is not the english that throws frozen balls. It is what side you hit the object ball on.

I would like to thank all the posters on this thread for showing such class. It is great to have a discussion/debate about a shot without name calling. Thank all of youzzzz guys.
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I would like to add after reading steve comments about the speed that the 3 ball is key here to trying to figure out what was in Efrens mind. IF Efren thought he would sure to make the 3 then he may indeed have played the 5, I have to concede he did look like he was eying the 5. I just don't think Efren or any pro would plan to leave the cb in the jaws and the object ball down table. I actually think he thought he was going to miss the 6 and make the 3 now lol!

Interesting thread though
 
I think he did like I always do. Close my eyes and shoot hard! ;)

I think he saw that he could make all 3 of them, so he aimed for it because most likely at least one of them will go and he will still be at the table.

He definitely aimed for the 5, he looks at the 6-ball before shooting and probably thinks that the 3-ball is the hardest ball so that's why he looks at it after the shot.

If all 3 had been pocketed, he would have had perfect position on the 7.

However, he did pocket both the 2 ball and 3 ball so easy that it makes me mad! :D
 
NOW,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Who thinks Efren didn't play the billiard on the 5 ball?
 
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Second guessing Efren

Apart from a very good grasp of the game, the nice thing about hemicudas' analysis was that the document/video on hand was actually dissected on a frame by frame basis before he came out with his "opinion". Post #36 was supportive of that. Most other analyses merely relied on what the fleeting video as a whole presented. The eyes are just not fast enough.

The wonderful thing about watching Efren Reyes play pool is his chess-like approach to the game. Like chess, all the pieces are there for everyone to see, nothing is hidden. The creativity in the "moves" he make is what put him above the rest.

Watch how Efren made a dingbat out of this commentator in the 2003 WPL. Just when the announcer thought Hohmann "ensured the bank shot was taken away", lo and behold, came the double bank!
 
hemicudas said:
NOW,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Who thinks Efren didn't play the billiard on the 5 ball?
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Nice screen shot, this is the frame of the video that caused me to change my mind about the 5 ball. But it also compelling evidence of what Efren's intentions may have been for the 3 and 6 balls.

I think we can safely say that if he was ONLY intending on making the 5 ball he would have played the billiard of the LEFT side of the cluster instead of the right side because it is a MUCH easier shot.

Therefore IMO I think it's a safe bet that Efren was pretty sure he was going to make at least ONE other ball. The second thing this screen shot shows is just how far off aligned the 3-6 ball combination is to the corner (if I recall correctly there is another shot in the video that better highlights this). It looks like it's only slightly past the first diamond past the side pocket. Given that and the position of the balls I am still convinced that Efren must have intended to make the 3 ball and NOT the 6 ball. :o
 
Fatboy said:
its clear it was a 2 way shot the 3 or 6 if either one goes in he is golden, the fact they both went was luck, i'm not taking anything away from the shot he is the greatest player ever-i have said that since i first saw him but, i'm not going to make more out of it than it is, if it was a hill-hill shot then yes perhaps more thought would have went into it. he jacked up on the 2 and then came off the shot and jacked up again, he tried to break them up and didnt he screwed that up-granted it is a hard shot because the 2 is frozen, so when he didnt and the balls were tied up it was a 2 way shot, nothing more or less, the 5 in the side wasnt in the plan the pocket happened to be there-if it went then mike massy has a new trick shot to learn.
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i saw the colors wrong on my lap top to be clear i think he was playing the ball hanging in the pocket and throwing the 6, the ball going towards the side pocket wasnt in the plan at all
 
Just got done discussing this shot with Efren using Cuetable layout while here at the DCC. He couldn't figure out which balls were which at first, but he caught on pretty quickly and looked like he was digging it. Anyhoos, he discussed his thoughts on the shot with one simple sentence. "I try to make all three balls."

We also showed him the infamous zigzag two-railer against Earl in Reno '95 out there in Youtube land. Again, he summed it up in a simple sentence. "It was magic." He also said that on the safety, he knew he was going to hit the 8-ball with the 5-ball, but didn't know that 8-ball was going to go in. "You see magic in money games all the time but not in tournaments."

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=35

Fred
 
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