egotistical mania and disengagement of human biases in pool instruction

W

WhatsTheSpot

Banned
I've brought up the M5,000 method to many people. For those of you that don't know it, it is a theory that states in order to master a skill, you need to fail 5,000 times.

A common response is that it is impossible to learn anything from missing. You will even hear some pool instructors say things like this.

Objection to the M5,000 method shows a lack of understanding of human biases, a lack of critical thinking, perhaps supported by egotistical mania. I do not judge anyone or their methods. The quickest way to know nothing is to spend your time judging other people. I know someone is worth my time when they are critical of THEIR OWN KNOWLEDGE. Someone who is always trying to prove their own knowledge wrong. Never thinking that they are right with 100% certainty.

Getting back to M5,000. All through your younger life, you use M5,000 in most everything you learn. When you were taught to ride a bike, were you given a DVD of specific angles to hold your hands and feet? No. When you took the training wheels off, you were forced to fall many times before you could succeed. There was no attempt to FORCE SUCCESS on each attempt. Eventually you mastered the skill. And there were probably not many children in your neighborhood who were NATURALS, and were able to ride the bike on their first attempt.

When you begin playing baseball, you are given instructions on how to hold the bat, and the process of the swing. The child will then often swing and miss hundreds of times. The child is allowed to fail many times, until he begins to succeed.

When you are in college and attempt to do public speeches, you do alot of preparation. You can spend money on DVD's, coaches, and all sorts of assistance to help you speak in public. But it is highly likely that on your first effort you will not fare too well. Once you have a number of mediocre speeches under your belt, you will likely improve.

But in pool, it seems that this type of training is not supported. I don't really know the reason why yet. It will be a very interesting discussion to say the least. I look forward to your responses.
 
No disrespect, but my BS meter just spiked at "10". Unless of course you are using the number 5000 figuratively in some way.

Fail 5000 times to master a skill? Try that in surgery. If you want to talk about teaching and learning skills there is no higher plain, and I can assure you....there is no way that 5000 failures would happen in the endeavor to learn any surgical skill. You learn it and very likely do it damn near perfect the first time....and many, many times after that.

Sure...you practice hand and instrument ties over and over outside surgical theater.......but not anything like 5,000 times.

Further, I teach both academically and clinically at the graduate and post graduate levels. That being the case I am a certain amount of expertise in such matters as training, teaching, and learning.

Yes, surgical skills are very similar. Hand/eye coordination. Precision motions. Accuracy. Repetition. Planning. And pressure. But of course it is at an even higher level, and hence more demanding, yet people learn it much faster than 5000 mistakes would require. Choke at the pool table and you lose a game, maybe some money. Choke in the operating theater and somebody dies.


I understand what you are saying, I really do. But the 5000 number is ridiculous for anybody except the most miserable underachiever.

It could be said that the people I am dealing with have been "weeded out" several times to get where they are and are only the most capable, dedicated, and highest aptitude available.....but I don't know.....is there that much of a gap be tween the average person attempting to learn skills at the pool table and a person who wants to learn to be a doctor? I dunno......

I do agree of course with the notion of practical training, but I think that is a truism for something like cue sports. I don't think it's arguable. Perhaps that is simply what you are espousing and I just let that number, 5000, get in the way......

Just my opinion and thoughts on the matter of course.

.
 
Chopdoc said:
No disrespect, but my BS meter just spiked at "10". Unless of course you are using the number 5000 figuratively in some way.

Fail 5000 times to master a skill? Try that in surgery. If you want to talk about teaching and learning skills there is no higher plain, and I can assure you....there is no way that 5000 failures would happen in the endeavor to learn any surgical skill. You learn it and very likely do it damn near perfect the first time....and many, many times after that.

Sure...you practice hand and instrument ties over and over outside surgical theater.......but not anything like 5,000 times.

Further, I teach both academically and clinically at the graduate and post graduate levels. That being the case I am a certain amount of expertise in such matters as training, teaching, and learning.

Yes, surgical skills are very similar. Hand/eye coordination. Precision motions. Accuracy. Repetition. Planning. And pressure. But of course it is at an even higher level, and hence more demanding, yet people learn it much faster than 5000 mistakes would require. Choke at the pool table and you lose a game, maybe some money. Choke in the operating theater and somebody dies.


I understand what you are saying, I really do. But the 5000 number is ridiculous for anybody except the most miserable underachiever.

It could be said that the people I am dealing with have been "weeded out" several times to get where they are and are only the most capable, dedicated, and highest aptitude available.....but I don't know.....is there that much of a gap be tween the average person attempting to learn skills at the pool table and a person who wants to learn to be a doctor? I dunno......

I do agree of course with the notion of practical training, but I think that is a truism for something like cue sports. I don't think it's arguable. Perhaps that is simply what you are espousing and I just let that number, 5000, get in the way......

Just my opinion and thoughts on the matter of course.

.
Click to expand...

I cannot speak about medical procedures. I am sure the two could be similar. There may differences in the way success is determined, and the tolerances for each skill.

For example, on a long difficult shot in pool, you may be able to miss by 1.5 degrees and still succeed by pocketing the ball.

If you are 16 and learning to drive, you will likely not take your turns very smooth, and you will accelerate awkwardly, among many other mistakes that new drivers make.

Eventually you will gain enough skill to earn a driver's license. You could say that getting your license is succeeding, but that does not make you a good driver by any means. Proof of this can be seen on the roads.

There are differences I'm sure, but I'm not comfortable commenting on medical procedures as I don't know much about them.
 
WhatsTheSpot said:
I've brought up the M5,000 method to many people. For those of you that don't know it, it is a theory that states in order to master a skill, you need to fail 5,000 times.

A common response is that it is impossible to learn anything from missing. You will even hear some pool instructors say things like this.

Objection to the M5,000 method shows a lack of understanding of human biases, a lack of critical thinking, perhaps supported by egotistical mania. I do not judge anyone or their methods. The quickest way to know nothing is to spend your time judging other people. I know someone is worth my time when they are critical of THEIR OWN KNOWLEDGE. Someone who is always trying to prove their own knowledge wrong. Never thinking that they are right with 100% certainty.

Getting back to M5,000. All through your younger life, you use M5,000 in most everything you learn. When you were taught to ride a bike, were you given a DVD of specific angles to hold your hands and feet? No. When you took the training wheels off, you were forced to fall many times before you could succeed. There was no attempt to FORCE SUCCESS on each attempt. Eventually you mastered the skill. And there were probably not many children in your neighborhood who were NATURALS, and were able to ride the bike on their first attempt.

When you begin playing baseball, you are given instructions on how to hold the bat, and the process of the swing. The child will then often swing and miss hundreds of times. The child is allowed to fail many times, until he begins to succeed.

When you are in college and attempt to do public speeches, you do alot of preparation. You can spend money on DVD's, coaches, and all sorts of assistance to help you speak in public. But it is highly likely that on your first effort you will not fare too well. Once you have a number of mediocre speeches under your belt, you will likely improve.

But in pool, it seems that this type of training is not supported. I don't really know the reason why yet. It will be a very interesting discussion to say the least. I look forward to your responses.
Click to expand...


I kinda see what you're saying, but I'm not sure about 5,000 misses, even of any particular shot. Anywhos, here's my take on misses:

I think the answer is to try and look at these misses in a totally different
 light -- after all, they're whispering something to you.

When you miss an
 easy one, don't get all pissy about the fact that you missed, instead:
 "listen" closely.
 That "something" you might hear is the game telling you that you don't know the
 shot as well as you thought you did, and/or, that you have a flaw in your
 mechanics that has just manifested itself. Unless it's just one of those
 days when I'm pounding everything into the rail (and I don't play 3C) I like
 to look at these misses as signposts the game has laid out for me as I
 putter along, trying to figure out my way to the top of the mountain. In
 other words, these misses are the game's way of quietly telling me what I
 need to work on so that eventually, I'll have the tools and skills to make
 it further up the peak.


When you blow a hanger, try and remember it. Not only the shot setup, but
 what position you were trying to play and whether you over-cut or undercut
 the shot. It's also worth remembering where the cue ball ended up and
 whether or not "you got there." Afterwards, set the shot up and practice it.
 Usually, what I've found when I miss an easy one, is that the position play
 I was trying to achieve had something to do with the miss. Maybe I was
 unsure how the cue ball would react, or I was uncomfortable shooting the
 shot at that particular speed, or the cue ball may have been in a spot that
 required making a bridge that I don't use frequently. Or it could be
 something else. Over time I've corrected several fundamental flaws in my
 game, all because of: missing the easy ones.


I guess I like to consider the misses the game's way of helping me... you
 just have to quiet down long enough to hear the advice, instead of howling
 at the sky :-)


Lou Figueroa
 
Until you define the pass/fail line, I don't see how you can come up with the 5,000 failures as the number.

My description of mastery is that the skill can be performed unconsciously, without having to think of each step in the process of completing the entire act. Striving for unconscious competence is the goal.

Here's an example. If you learn to drive a car with an automatic transmission, you eventually find yourself driving without paying strict attention to what's going on. You're driving with unconscious competence.

Now go learn to drive a manual transmission. Something you didn't have to think about, becomes a difficult, new skill to be mastered. You find yourself having to think through each step (depress the clutch, shift the gear, release the clutch to the friction point, press on the accelerator, etc) in order to be competent. In this case, you first become consciously incompetent (stall, chirp the tires, etc) before gaining competence again.

If you continue to drive a manual transmission for a period of time, you eventually stop having to think about what you're doing and achieve unconscious competence, again. I own a vehicle with each and I don't think about what I'm doing. I just get in and drive.

In any case, I don't believe failure drives mastery. I believe repeatable success drives it.

My 2 cents. Your mileage my vary.

Brian in VA

P.S. I train people for a living.
 
lfigueroa said:
I kinda see what you're saying, but I'm not sure about 5,000 misses, even of any particular shot. Anywhos, here's my take on misses:

I think the answer is to try and look at these misses in a totally different
 light -- after all, they're whispering something to you.

When you miss an
 easy one, don't get all pissy about the fact that you missed, instead:
 "listen" closely.
 That "something" you might hear is the game telling you that you don't know the
 shot as well as you thought you did, and/or, that you have a flaw in your
 mechanics that has just manifested itself. Unless it's just one of those
 days when I'm pounding everything into the rail (and I don't play 3C) I like
 to look at these misses as signposts the game has laid out for me as I
 putter along, trying to figure out my way to the top of the mountain. In
 other words, these misses are the game's way of quietly telling me what I
 need to work on so that eventually, I'll have the tools and skills to make
 it further up the peak.


When you blow a hanger, try and remember it. Not only the shot setup, but
 what position you were trying to play and whether you over-cut or undercut
 the shot. It's also worth remembering where the cue ball ended up and
 whether or not "you got there." Afterwards, set the shot up and practice it.
 Usually, what I've found when I miss an easy one, is that the position play
 I was trying to achieve had something to do with the miss. Maybe I was
 unsure how the cue ball would react, or I was uncomfortable shooting the
 shot at that particular speed, or the cue ball may have been in a spot that
 required making a bridge that I don't use frequently. Or it could be
 something else. Over time I've corrected several fundamental flaws in my
 game, all because of: missing the easy ones.


I guess I like to consider the misses the game's way of helping me... you
 just have to quiet down long enough to hear the advice, instead of howling
 at the sky :-)


Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

good post.
 
I'm not much "into" philosophy, but the title of this thread was certainly a mouthful :thumbup:!!!

Maniac
 
I'm still trying to digest this comment:

"Objection to the M5,000 method shows a lack of understanding of human biases, a lack of critical thinking, perhaps supported by egotistical mania."

Seriously?
 
I think he's just picking a number out of thin air. I do know it took me 5 years give or take to master a skilled trade. Multi faceted skilled trades. Less then perfect was not acceptable to advance.
The concept is relatively sound but the numbers are flawed IMO.
 
About the surgeon comment, I suspect that most surgeons make several small mistakes in each surgery -- maybe a cut a little too short or long, maybe stitches in not quite the right place, maybe not quite enough anesthetic, maybe the wrong kidney removed. The good surgeons will note the errors and improve.

About learning how to ride a bicycle, the act of riding a bicycle is a constant series of corrections. If you didn't make the corrections, you'd fall over in a few seconds.

The technique of Progressive Practice puts the pool practicer near the limit of his comfort zone. See http://www.sfbilliards.com/progpract.pdf for an introduction and practice diagrams. If you adopt this method, you will miss about half the shots you shoot at. (The actual percentage can be adjusted within the system.) That means if you shoot 10,000 shots, which I would take to be about 100 short practice sessions, you will miss 5000 times. (Here, "miss" means to fail to do the shot correctly. Sometimes the important part of the shot is to position the cue ball.)

Sometimes I see players practicing the same easy shot over and over. Unless they have a secret goal, such as freezing the cue ball to the cushion or putting the object ball in the dead center of the pocket, I think they are wasting their time.

Good judgement comes from experience, often, experience comes from bad judgement.
---Rita Mae Brown​
 
PocketPoint? Is that you......... but seriously, of course success is built on failure. duh.
 
Need to learn why you missed..........

WhatsTheSpot said:
I've brought up the M5,000 method to many people. For those of you that don't know it, it is a theory that states in order to master a skill, you need to fail 5,000 times.

A common response is that it is impossible to learn anything from missing. You will even hear some pool instructors say things like this.

Objection to the M5,000 method shows a lack of understanding of human biases, a lack of critical thinking, perhaps supported by egotistical mania. I do not judge anyone or their methods. The quickest way to know nothing is to spend your time judging other people. I know someone is worth my time when they are critical of THEIR OWN KNOWLEDGE. Someone who is always trying to prove their own knowledge wrong. Never thinking that they are right with 100% certainty.

Getting back to M5,000. All through your younger life, you use M5,000 in most everything you learn. When you were taught to ride a bike, were you given a DVD of specific angles to hold your hands and feet? No. When you took the training wheels off, you were forced to fall many times before you could succeed. There was no attempt to FORCE SUCCESS on each attempt. Eventually you mastered the skill. And there were probably not many children in your neighborhood who were NATURALS, and were able to ride the bike on their first attempt.

When you begin playing baseball, you are given instructions on how to hold the bat, and the process of the swing. The child will then often swing and miss hundreds of times. The child is allowed to fail many times, until he begins to succeed.

When you are in college and attempt to do public speeches, you do alot of preparation. You can spend money on DVD's, coaches, and all sorts of assistance to help you speak in public. But it is highly likely that on your first effort you will not fare too well. Once you have a number of mediocre speeches under your belt, you will likely improve.

But in pool, it seems that this type of training is not supported. I don't really know the reason why yet. It will be a very interesting discussion to say the least. I look forward to your responses.
Click to expand...

Some players are very good at learning why they missed when they understand what happened on a particular shot. If you don't know why the same thing continually happening.

Missing.

A good instructor will be able to help a player see why he or she is missing. Why the cue ball isn't going where it needs to go.

We are all self taught to a certain extent in this game of pool. We see something and then we try to work it into our game whether it be from a friend, opponent or instructor.

The faster a player can learn the fast the improvements can be.

Once you learn something that obviously works well you need to make that a permanent part of your game. Lock it in forever. Pretty soon you have a collection of many shots and techniques that work well.

Players sometimes refer to this as another club in their bag. Most players regardless of skill have hundreds of clubs in their bags. Just that some are really good and some need to be straightened out a little bit.


The fun part of pool is improving. That's why teaching is so rewarding.

Seeing a player having fun with the game we all love.

Have a great day geno.........
 
WhatsTheSpot said:
Objection to the M5,000 method shows a lack of understanding of human biases, a lack of critical thinking, perhaps supported by egotistical mania. I do not judge anyone or their methods. The quickest way to know nothing is to spend your time judging other people. I know someone is worth my time when they are critical of THEIR OWN KNOWLEDGE. Someone who is always trying to prove their own knowledge wrong. Never thinking that they are right with 100% certainty.
Click to expand...

Have you ever, just once, stopped to read the things that you write? If so, did you read only for errors?

Since you're obviously PocketPoint or some variation thereof, you're worthless drivel is going to the ignore bin.. you type well, but think horribly.
 
I think the "failing" part is wrong. You don't need to fail 5,000 times but you need to try to do it right 5,000 times. It's easy to get something wrong 5,000 times and never learn anything if you don't know what the success looks like.

It should be "do something 5,000 times and you will get good at it".

The failing 5,000 times is a bit too zen sounding.

Let's put it that way, if you have sex 5,000 times but no-one ever tells you you're doing it wrong, that 5,001st person will still be disappointed.
 
Yes you have to fail in order to succeed, but the simple act of failing isn't going to develop you into a great player. There are plenty of bangers that played for decades and have missed probably more balls than they actually made, but they are still bangers.

If you aren't constantly trying to build upon your mistakes and push your mechanics forward then you will plateau. In fact I think a lot of players hit a wall because they think their fundamentals are fine and expect that simply going through the motions of drills and matches will improve their game.
 
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