Enough MC talk. It's irrelevant
- Thread starter leto1776
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In order to travel the world and compete against all the best international players, one must have money and/or sponsors.
MOST American professional players couldn't afford the taxi ride to the Greyhound bus station...how are they going to travel to and play in these events?
In order to have a sponsor, you must WIN events.
Kind of a double-edged sword if you ask me.
American pool players are going to have to LEARN that 90% of ANYTHING that happens to improve their livelihoods and fortunes is going to depend a LOT upon THEM. They CAN'T sit back and moan and groan "woe is me" all the time. They need to get off their asses and do something that brings POSITIVE exposure to themselves and the game.
Go to a school and offer to help with a pool program. Participate FOR FREE in clinics, exhibitions, and demonstrations. Invite the town sports writer for the paper to attend a tournament...pay his way into the event if need be.
If all that DOESN'T work, then set up your own business where you teach people for a fee. If they see improvement, the word will spread and you will get business. If not...GET A REAL JOB!
Shane is the only American that has a chance and even he has to make his way through dozens of opponents at or near his level in a land and time zone that are unfamiliar to him.
I agree, I can't think of another American player who can do it. Shane's won the US Open three times and he hasn't played another American player in the finals yet.
Shane is in a good place right now as far as American professional pool, no question about that.
My thoughts are that many aspiring pro-caliber pool players never advance or take that next step because the expenses are too brutal to compete professionally. If the BCA organization had made an attempt to help professional pool instead of looking out for industry members only, things might be different today. Instead, they ditched all association with professional pool. They truly should change their name, as they are *not* a congress of anything billiards.
And I will never, ever forget the BCA sending Mika Immonen to China on an American BCA slot. That is outrageous, considering how long American professional pool has been suffering. OUTRAGEOUS! :angry:
If a young aspiring pro-caliber American player decided to follow the professional tournament trail full-time, he/she would be met with numerous problems of survival, especially today when most regional tours ban pro-caliber players or restrict their attendance altogether. There are not too many venues for a pro-caliber player to strut their stuff. So why bother going through with being a professional pool player? is the question.
Mosconi Cup is the golden ring that most pro pool players want to grab. Is it because of the *guaranteed" payday, or is it because it looks good on their pool portfolio? Or, in the alternative, is it patronage? I'm sure the answer is different for the Americans today than it was 10-plus years ago. This is a sign of the times, more so than American pros are no-good bums without jobs. The American pros are doing what they feel is right to survive in a fractured pool industry. Some of their behavior has been self-destructive, but I can see the reasons why some have gone in that direction, to include Bonus Ball. I don't agree with all of it, but I can empathize with it.
In times gone by, there were a half-a-dozen events for American pros to get those precious Mosconi Cup ranking points. This year, 2014, there's, what, three pro events in America?
So now we are talking about choosing the American Mosconi Cup coach well in advance, almost a year, of the event. I believe those who are pushing Mark Wilson to be that coach have good intentions and want what is best for the Mosconi Cup. There is, however, a generational divide between Mark Wilson and the existing lot of already-established American pros. If the pros don't respect Mark and vice versa, "Houston, we gotta problem." I'm not sure if bringing in all green pro players for America/North America is the answer, either.
I don't mind talking about this topic becuase it does raise some good food for thought. So, me personally, I think this subject matter is relevant to the status quo and future of American pool. I wish I had a crystal ball to see what we will be discussing this same time next year after York. :grin:
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Great perspective, Hawaiian Eye.
It's going to take some real insight and resourcefulness at the individual level in order to make it as a (American) pro player.
No matter, the U.S. pro player MUST have some sort of income on the side.
One in which he/she can work on their own schedule.
This is so he/she can get to tourneys when needed.
It's a difficult endeavor, but it CAN be done.
All it takes is intelligence, creativity, and desire.
And of course, a belief in oneself.
You can't live off of love. It's a little more complicated than intelligence and desire, I'm afraid.
The mosconi cup is the pinnacle of pool for a lot of people. It is THE event as far as television is concerned with out a doubt!
Probably similar in prestige/difference between the world series of baseball and the wold championships of baseball..
like the world series
please
other than on this thread i never met anyone who even watches these shows
i honestly have never watched the Mosconi cup
after 50 years of being around pool,i wonder if i am typical of the pool players
i once went to a world championship in Reno
during the finals i matched up and played harry p for big stakes one pocket
about 600 people crowded in the room to watch 2 people gamble
almost every player in the tournament,over 50 big names,hall of fame players,
including some posting or pictured above as well as many world champions themselves
only about a dozen people stayed in the ballroom to watch t5hefinals of the 9 ball
world championship
i thought then and still think that 9 ball tournament pool is dull
now i am not looking for a fight,i just find it dull and so do
most of the people i know
on the other hand i have paid big money to watch willie mosconi
my feeling is,why should we try to support all this,who cares?
the prizes are small,the players are broke,the gates are small
and the promotion don't promote
we had a tournament in Dallas,i had several big name players,table manufacturers,
cue makers and even players that didn't even watch
of course you couldn't see it very good,you had to stand in back of rows of people to see it
i would recommend to the players to quit dreaming and get a job
hustling is an alternative,but plan on dying broke,friendless and without wife or family
Ronnie,Titanic and many others are proofs
Lets face it,pool is not a very good profession
it's like amateur golf,without the class,prestige or contacts
now I love pool,its fun to play,but a spectator sport it ain't
at least the way it is today
why would you think I should support it? why even give a good player a pool cue?
They usually sell it ,Is the image of professional pool so good that a sponsor
expects to profit
I once heard Mark griffin discussing a plan to promote pool
it smacked of common sense,vision and practicality but for some reason
we keep patronizing promoters that don't pay the winners,or stall
am i the only one who feels this way,is it old fashion to get a job and quit dreaming,
at least unrealistic dreams
let the hate mail begin
please
other than on this thread i never met anyone who even watches these shows
i honestly have never watched the Mosconi cup
after 50 years of being around pool,i wonder if i am typical of the pool players
i once went to a world championship in Reno
during the finals i matched up and played harry p for big stakes one pocket
about 600 people crowded in the room to watch 2 people gamble
almost every player in the tournament,over 50 big names,hall of fame players,
including some posting or pictured above as well as many world champions themselves
only about a dozen people stayed in the ballroom to watch t5hefinals of the 9 ball
world championship
i thought then and still think that 9 ball tournament pool is dull
now i am not looking for a fight,i just find it dull and so do
most of the people i know
on the other hand i have paid big money to watch willie mosconi
my feeling is,why should we try to support all this,who cares?
the prizes are small,the players are broke,the gates are small
and the promotion don't promote
we had a tournament in Dallas,i had several big name players,table manufacturers,
cue makers and even players that didn't even watch
of course you couldn't see it very good,you had to stand in back of rows of people to see it
i would recommend to the players to quit dreaming and get a job
hustling is an alternative,but plan on dying broke,friendless and without wife or family
Ronnie,Titanic and many others are proofs
Lets face it,pool is not a very good profession
it's like amateur golf,without the class,prestige or contacts
now I love pool,its fun to play,but a spectator sport it ain't
at least the way it is today
why would you think I should support it? why even give a good player a pool cue?
They usually sell it ,Is the image of professional pool so good that a sponsor
expects to profit
I once heard Mark griffin discussing a plan to promote pool
it smacked of common sense,vision and practicality but for some reason
we keep patronizing promoters that don't pay the winners,or stall
am i the only one who feels this way,is it old fashion to get a job and quit dreaming,
at least unrealistic dreams
let the hate mail begin
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Well said!
Working and playing is tough if you want to attend international tournaments, but working and picking the top 3-4 national tournaments is very doable, if working is something that is seen as the solution to being broke?
Working and playing is tough if you want to attend international tournaments, but working and picking the top 3-4 national tournaments is very doable, if working is something that is seen as the solution to being broke?
That is where the matching up gets involved.
If you let another pro get all your cash, then maybe you shouldn't attend all those expensive tournaments anyway.
Well, that's why we have less and less pros today.
NOBODY CAN AFFORD IT! You need to win, place, or show to break even in most tournaments.
This is certainly well reasoned but also disconcerting.
International competition is critical and Americans not named Shane have largely dealt themselves out when it comes to competing in WPA World Championships.
This is making it harder and harder for American professionals to catch up with a world of pool that is, for the moment, outdueling America most of the time. The real problem is that Americans not named Shane don't get to play against the truly elite often enough.
Actually, there is another American that consistently finishes high in the events having the toughest fields and that's Mike Dechaine, the only American who had a top 10 finish in each of the 2013 DCC 9-ball, 2013 Ultimate 10-ball, 2013, 2013 US Open 10-ball and the 2013 US Open 9-ball. Mike, if memory serves, was also the #1 ranked player on the Joss tour in 2013.
As many have noted, though, even a player with a track record as strong as Mike's can't easily make the economics of participation add up for the biggest WPA events overseas.
This excerpt from JAM's post really hits the mark as far as the current situation for American pros:
It is this respect in which the original post is in error. The size of the Mosconi payday relative to the prize money available in American events makes the internationally televised Mosconi Cup continually relevant and, might I add, that for all elite American pool professionals but Shane, it's practically their only real chance for international exposure.
Interesting thread.
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Generational divide.... How so? You are saying Mark is too old?
Respect..... What leads you to believe that Mark doesn't respect them or vice versa?
I think these are both non-issues because you are speaking of a problem that I don't think exists. What do you feel the coaches age needs to be in order to be effective? Do you think it is better to have a person there who is a coach only in name?
I think you are misinterpreting my remark.
An established pro, one who has numerous championship titles, may not work well with Mark Wilson, whether that established pro is 10 years old or 80 years old.
A green pro, one with little exposure to the professional pool world, may be eager to work with Mark Wilson and accept direction well.
Mark Wilson's age has nothing to do with it.
Ok, then why say a generational gap? I may very well be confused! (it wouldn't be the first time!)
You do know that Mark is a established pro himself right?
If you are saying that someone who has already been on the team and played many times may not want to take instruction than why even have a coach? Or (please forgive me if I am wrong) are you saying that Mark isn't established enough for them to see him as competent enough to teach them?
What other instructor is more qualified than Mark to teach/coach a pro in your opinion?
JAM - I want to understand your line of thinking as you have repeated it several times so maybe you could explain further. Did the pros this year work well with Buddy Hall or Johnny Archer (those two have as big of a pro caliber resume as anyone in the US)?
I know you gave the example of Keith's 'response' when he was questioned whether a shot could be executed. But you are confusing apples and oranges. I have posted this before - people that support Mark Willson are not saying that he is going to teach SVB, Earl, Rodney or whoever how to shoot pool. They obviously already know that. I am sure that if Keith took a lesson from Mark he wouldn't tell Keith to change his stance which is obviously unorthodox in pool. What Mark will teach them is how to act like a professional, how to represent their sport with class, respect their opponents and the fans watching, and compete as a team. If some pro thinks because he can draw his ball better than Mark was ever capable of doing, that he shouldn't have to work with someone like Mark Wilson than he shouldn't be on the Mosconi Cup team.
I know you gave the example of Keith's 'response' when he was questioned whether a shot could be executed. But you are confusing apples and oranges. I have posted this before - people that support Mark Willson are not saying that he is going to teach SVB, Earl, Rodney or whoever how to shoot pool. They obviously already know that. I am sure that if Keith took a lesson from Mark he wouldn't tell Keith to change his stance which is obviously unorthodox in pool. What Mark will teach them is how to act like a professional, how to represent their sport with class, respect their opponents and the fans watching, and compete as a team. If some pro thinks because he can draw his ball better than Mark was ever capable of doing, that he shouldn't have to work with someone like Mark Wilson than he shouldn't be on the Mosconi Cup team.
Maybe the "generational gap" would have been better worded by me to mean the pro players themselves, not the coach. It seems like on a forum, one's words are often misinterpreted, resulting in extensive back-and-forths with people explaining the words they had written to others.
I never said Mark is not established enough.
I do not believe some established pros will take direction from Mark Wilson -- or any coach for that matter -- if the coach is going to instruct them how to shoot pool.
Pomp and circumstance is whole nother topic. I'm not referring to that. I am referring to established pros taking direction from someone who isn't in their wheelhouse at the present time. There needs to be a relationship established between a coach and a team.
BTW JAM, I know that we won't change each others mind on this subject and that okay, I just didn't understand where you were coming from. To me it almost read like it was personal or there is another agenda driving your feelings about Marks credentials. (Again, I wouldn't be surprised if I was misreading you, I do that a lot on here unintentionally)
I just don't get how someone would consider him unqualified. Pro or not.
Edit: I posted the above before reading your last comment. After reading it I guess we will just differ on this opinion. I think the team needs a leader, not a buddy that they are comfortable with. That buddy thing hasn't worked so far in my opinion.
I just don't get how someone would consider him unqualified. Pro or not.
Edit: I posted the above before reading your last comment. After reading it I guess we will just differ on this opinion. I think the team needs a leader, not a buddy that they are comfortable with. That buddy thing hasn't worked so far in my opinion.
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Again, I never said he was not qualified. I did say that established pros may experience difficulties taking direction from someone such as Mark Wilson, who has been away from the professional tournament trail for sometime. It doesn't mean Mark Wilson cannot teach pool or coach.
I really don't know any other way I can explain it, other than to say most players who achieve a championship-like status have STRONG self-esteem, to include egos. That is actually needed for some players to go as far as they do go in competitive sports.
For a coach who hasn't been involved in *their* professional pool world for a long time to walk in and start barking directions, some of these players may find this difficult to swallow. Whereas, a young eager player with strong skills, green to the professional pool world, may gobble down every Mark Wilson nugget and want more.