Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
If you are looking at a four ball combo, you should be looking for another shot.
Nothing has been proven. Fact is that SOME players MAY look at the CB last. Whether they actually do or not is up for debate, which could only be proven with slow-motion, stop-action video analysis of their eye movements.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Well, looks like we agree on this. People posting pics or talking about watching a player in person - its EXTREMELY difficult to tell what they are looking at last. Scott's comments above are what it would take to determine this.
Mike
Update
The original post was regarding my findings in my personal experiment with looking at the cue ball while delivering the stroke. I started this experiment on 01-04-2013. It has been almost six weeks now and I am beyond the "Placebo" effect.
My game has improved!
What to attribute that improvement to?
Part of the improvement I can attribute to a solidified aiming process. Much like Johnny Archer stated in the TAR interview, I am getting the aim nailed down before my bridge hand touches the table. Once my bridge is on the table, I am sighting down the cue and confirming the line I want the cue ball to travel to the object ball. Once this is confirmed I can strike the cue ball with confidence knowing my stroke is straight and will go on the line I have established. (Ok I have not delved into the basics of developing the rock solid stance/bridge and straight smooth repeatable stroke.) So now it does not mater where I look as far as my accuracy on making the shot. That is now a mechanical matter.
Looking at the cue ball as I am delivering the stroke allows me more control over the precise placement of the tip on the cue ball. It also gives me a better feel for how long I carry the ball on the cue tip. This has improved my control of the cue ball. I have had to make an adjustment on my draw shots as I am now able to pull the cue ball back from a much longer distance. Aside from that I now experience more precise placement of the cue ball.
This all adds up to greater confidence in my game, which could be the largest factor in the whole equation.
I have seen some analogies, asking what you look at in other sports. My analogie would be to play one handed jacked up and see which ball you look at last.
The original post was regarding my findings in my personal experiment with looking at the cue ball while delivering the stroke. I started this experiment on 01-04-2013. It has been almost six weeks now and I am beyond the "Placebo" effect.
My game has improved!
What to attribute that improvement to?
Part of the improvement I can attribute to a solidified aiming process. Much like Johnny Archer stated in the TAR interview, I am getting the aim nailed down before my bridge hand touches the table. Once my bridge is on the table, I am sighting down the cue and confirming the line I want the cue ball to travel to the object ball. Once this is confirmed I can strike the cue ball with confidence knowing my stroke is straight and will go on the line I have established. (Ok I have not delved into the basics of developing the rock solid stance/bridge and straight smooth repeatable stroke.) So now it does not mater where I look as far as my accuracy on making the shot. That is now a mechanical matter.
Looking at the cue ball as I am delivering the stroke allows me more control over the precise placement of the tip on the cue ball. It also gives me a better feel for how long I carry the ball on the cue tip. This has improved my control of the cue ball. I have had to make an adjustment on my draw shots as I am now able to pull the cue ball back from a much longer distance. Aside from that I now experience more precise placement of the cue ball.
This all adds up to greater confidence in my game, which could be the largest factor in the whole equation.
I have seen some analogies, asking what you look at in other sports. My analogie would be to play one handed jacked up and see which ball you look at last.
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89% of shots missed because the tip contacts CB at different spot than intended. Therefore, the only big beneficial results by looking at CB last is it made you aware of this fact and you are conscious about where tip goes.
Thanks for the update, Greg!
89%? Is this a real number or just something you are whipping out?
Ken
That's great Greg. I'd agree that you're well past the placebo effect stage.
I'm a CB-last person too, although mine is due to a physical limitation that arthritis in the neck keeps me from lifting my head high enough to see the OB. It makes PSR and set-up everything in making the shot.
I'm a CB-last person too, although mine is due to a physical limitation that arthritis in the neck keeps me from lifting my head high enough to see the OB. It makes PSR and set-up everything in making the shot.
My age could be a factor as well.
No doubt this is not for everyone. :grin: It did seem very counter intuitive at first. After all I had been playing object ball last for 35 years.
My eyesight is not what it used to be and my shotmaking has declined over the years. Now I think back and remember the old farts grumbling about my "young eyes", when I was 28 and making shots they would not even attempt. Now I am an old fart and wish I had those "young eyes" again. Cue ball last has improved my shot making and given me renewed confidence in my game.
No doubt this is not for everyone. :grin: It did seem very counter intuitive at first. After all I had been playing object ball last for 35 years.
For whatever it is worth, I look at the cueball last. I've shot this way for many years. I am basically aiming from my tip position at the backswing, to the cue ball. I want to hit an extremely precise location on the cueball. I am aware of the object ball in my peripheral vision. But what is interesting is that it is the vagueness of that awareness that seems to *improve* my accuracy. I have already aimed the shot before I bend down. I confirm my aim by fixating on the *line* the cueball will take from standing up, all the way down, and during my practice strokes. But once it is time to pull the trigger, all I want to do is send my tip *ALONG THAT LINE* directly at the smallest most precise spot I can imagine on the cueball...straight through that spot. I have never heard of anyone else aiming this way. I would consider myself a pretty accurate shot maker. I also feel that my more delicate no rail position shots benefit a lot from this. But there is no better application of this technique than when the cue ball is far from the object ball, in such a way that I can't see both at the same time. I just swing right through the cueball, and the object ball seems to go in by magic. I guess the "magic" is that this method promotes a very straight stroke. Not sure if this is useful to anyone, but thought I'd share.
KMRUNOUT
KMRUNOUT
That is a perfect explanation of what is working for me now. :thumbup:
It really did seem magical at first that I was hitting the object ball so accurately while looking at the cue ball. Now it makes perfect sense, like you said it promotes a very straight stroke.
adjusting and fine tuning your stroke, speed, and shot angle.
The most important thing is whether you're watching the object ball go in the pocket after contact. It's very important to see what part of the pocket your object ball hits so you can immediately receive the feedback for calibration towards your next shot. At the highest levels you will always be adjusting and fine tuning your stroke, speed, and shot angle.
If you don't do this you may unconsciously be undercutting or overcutting your shots - if you are, it will reduce the margin of error in your "pocket zone". To be as accurate as possible you want to be directly connected {visually} to the feedback produced by the object ball/pocket relationship.
This is an advanced technique and if it doesn't make sense, please place it on a shelf for further reference and I'll elaborate on this topic in the next few days. 'The Game is the Teacher'
The most important thing is whether you're watching the object ball go in the pocket after contact. It's very important to see what part of the pocket your object ball hits so you can immediately receive the feedback for calibration towards your next shot. At the highest levels you will always be adjusting and fine tuning your stroke, speed, and shot angle.
If you don't do this you may unconsciously be undercutting or overcutting your shots - if you are, it will reduce the margin of error in your "pocket zone". To be as accurate as possible you want to be directly connected {visually} to the feedback produced by the object ball/pocket relationship.
This is an advanced technique and if it doesn't make sense, please place it on a shelf for further reference and I'll elaborate on this topic in the next few days. 'The Game is the Teacher'
CJ,
On one of your dvd's you said something that really resonated with me. You talked about how on all shots, the *cue ball* was your primary target, and the object ball was a secondary target. I very much agree with this concept, and it was nice to hear considering my odd method of aiming. I actually practice a lot with those green rubber pocket reducers. There is no chance of success with those unless you shoot the object ball *exactly* where you need to. On tables that have giant bucket pockets, you can still cheat a little even with the reducers in. But on an average tightness table, those reducers effectively eliminate "which part of the pocket" you shoot into. There is only "in"...or not. I find this helpful for "calibrating" as you say, because you can really only make the ball one way...so you get pretty clear and instant feedback from a miss. I have come to "feel" when I hit the ball too full or too thin almost before I see the ball miss. This has really helped me a lot, because it has created a connection between what I *see* while aiming, and the *feeling* of aiming "right" and how my stroke makes this connection.
Does this make any sense?
Thanks for the great info and insight CJ,
KMRUNOUT
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Greg!
Thanks for a great thread. Lots of interesting conversations here. I have often used CB last (in practice) to hone my stroke, and I'll admit that I've used it for many competition shots over my (relatively short) 15-year pool playing "career."
I'm perfectly happy that you have found something to bring back your spark, and I think you've brought back something that most of us should experiment with, at least in practice, if not in a few matches.
I hope that by joining in on this thread, I can convince a few others to join the conversation and help all of us explore this concept a bit further. I was reminded of so many things I'd forgotten over time, like the (generally good) advice to at least try CB last on touchy shots like shooting over a ball or a rail, or on the break.
Honestly, I look at the OB last for 99.9% of my shots (including the break), and I still do believe that's best for me at this time, but I am definitely going to explore this concept.
I responded in a related thread about the eye activity on the break, before I found this gem of a thread. I truly believe that even if some folks out there don't want to change their game to use this technique, it ABSOLUTELY CAN be (at least) a very good practice exercise, and a valuable stroke refinement tool.
What the heck, let's give it an acronym: CBL (Cue Ball Last). Just kidding, I know what happens to acronyms on AZB.
Anyway...
As some may already know from some recent threads I posted, I DO have a quality slow-motion camera, and I would be thrilled to use it for the greater good here. I'm not implying that anyone cares about my particular break or shot technique, but I think it would at least be interesting to see some SloMo of this humble AZBer's eye movements. Maybe I'll learn something that could change my game!
In that "CBL break" thread ( ) I offered to provide a video of my complete break routine, including my eye movements. I will definitely shoot some slow motion video of both OBL and CBL, on the break and other shots, and if any of you would like to see the resulting video, I'd be happy to provide it. Just let me know, please. Heck, I'd like to see that myself!
Thanks again, Greg, for providing a new spark for my game. I look forward to following your continued progress and learning even more from you.
Sincerely,
-Blake
Thanks for a great thread. Lots of interesting conversations here. I have often used CB last (in practice) to hone my stroke, and I'll admit that I've used it for many competition shots over my (relatively short) 15-year pool playing "career."
I'm perfectly happy that you have found something to bring back your spark, and I think you've brought back something that most of us should experiment with, at least in practice, if not in a few matches.
I hope that by joining in on this thread, I can convince a few others to join the conversation and help all of us explore this concept a bit further. I was reminded of so many things I'd forgotten over time, like the (generally good) advice to at least try CB last on touchy shots like shooting over a ball or a rail, or on the break.
Honestly, I look at the OB last for 99.9% of my shots (including the break), and I still do believe that's best for me at this time, but I am definitely going to explore this concept.
I responded in a related thread about the eye activity on the break, before I found this gem of a thread. I truly believe that even if some folks out there don't want to change their game to use this technique, it ABSOLUTELY CAN be (at least) a very good practice exercise, and a valuable stroke refinement tool.
What the heck, let's give it an acronym: CBL (Cue Ball Last). Just kidding, I know what happens to acronyms on AZB.
Anyway...
As some may already know from some recent threads I posted, I DO have a quality slow-motion camera, and I would be thrilled to use it for the greater good here. I'm not implying that anyone cares about my particular break or shot technique, but I think it would at least be interesting to see some SloMo of this humble AZBer's eye movements. Maybe I'll learn something that could change my game!
In that "CBL break" thread (
) I offered to provide a video of my complete break routine, including my eye movements. I will definitely shoot some slow motion video of both OBL and CBL, on the break and other shots, and if any of you would like to see the resulting video, I'd be happy to provide it. Just let me know, please. Heck, I'd like to see that myself! Thanks again, Greg, for providing a new spark for my game. I look forward to following your continued progress and learning even more from you.
Sincerely,
-Blake
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Oh yea, I am getting the feed back. I am hitting center pocket more often now. I have a Global table and balls hit center pocket tend to bounce straight back up and look around before going down. I am seeing lots more of those now. I also find that I am making balls that I thought I had missed slightly, giving me a feel for the 3 part pocket. :thumbup:
I ALWAYS strive to hit center pocket with the TOI
That makes a lot of sense. I would only suggest you not play "TOO" much with those pocket reducers unless you can still move your cue ball around ok. It sounds like you're doing this just fine.
I liked the way you're describing your experience. The Cue Ball is the primary target, the object ball is the secondary target and where the OB hit's the pocket is your feedback.
I ALWAYS strive to hit center pocket with the TOI (this means my alignment point is to the inside of the pocket), and if I'm even a hair off I still make a slight adjustment for the next shot. This may sound a bit severe, however, this is how I totally absorb into the game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
That makes a lot of sense. I would only suggest you not play "TOO" much with those pocket reducers unless you can still move your cue ball around ok. It sounds like you're doing this just fine.
I liked the way you're describing your experience. The Cue Ball is the primary target, the object ball is the secondary target and where the OB hit's the pocket is your feedback.
I ALWAYS strive to hit center pocket with the TOI (this means my alignment point is to the inside of the pocket), and if I'm even a hair off I still make a slight adjustment for the next shot. This may sound a bit severe, however, this is how I totally absorb into the game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I just started looking at the cueball last but only on longer shots or shots that required a lot more accuracy.
It helped my game a lot. Not saying it's the right thing for everyone, but it seemed like the right thing for me.
It helped my game a lot. Not saying it's the right thing for everyone, but it seemed like the right thing for me.
Greg!
Thanks for a great thread. Lots of interesting conversations here. I have often used CB last (in practice) to hone my stroke, and I'll admit that I've used it for many competition shots over my (relatively short) 15-year pool playing "career."
I'm perfectly happy that you have found something to bring back your spark, and I think you've brought back something that most of us should experiment with, at least in practice, if not in a few matches.
I hope that by joining in on this thread, I can convince a few others to join the conversation and help all of us explore this concept a bit further. I was reminded of so many things I'd forgotten over time, like the (generally good) advice to at least try CB last on touchy shots like shooting over a ball or a rail, or on the break.
Honestly, I look at the OB last for 99.9% of my shots (including the break), and I still do believe that's best for me at this time, but I am definitely going to explore this concept.
I responded in a related thread about the eye activity on the break, before I found this gem of a thread. I truly believe that even if some folks out there don't want to change their game to use this technique, it ABSOLUTELY CAN be (at least) a very good practice exercise, and a valuable stroke refinement tool.
What the heck, let's give it an acronym: CBL (Cue Ball Last). Just kidding, I know what happens to acronyms on AZB.
Anyway...
As some may already know from some recent threads I posted, I DO have a quality slow-motion camera, and I would be thrilled to use it for the greater good here. I'm not implying that anyone cares about my particular break or shot technique, but I think it would at least be interesting to see some SloMo of this humble AZBer's eye movements. Maybe I'll learn something that could change my game!
In that "CBL break" thread (
Thanks again, Greg, for providing a new spark for my game. I look forward to following your continued progress and learning even more from you.
Sincerely,
-Blake
I would love to see the eye pattern of some of the major pros! In this thread CJ was asked about having his eye pattern videoed but not sure he ever saw it.
Thanks for the first slo mo video too. I really enjoyed watching it. How much does a camera like that run?
Good stuff!
Ken