Fight at Hardtimes in Sacramento?

we used to have a 24/7 pool hall in Denver, one early morning (I wasn't there), some guys got 86'd for giving alcohol to an under aged girl. The proceeded to beat the pool hall manager in the face with pool cues. As they were leaving a friend of mine fired a javelin shot with a pool cue, hit one guy in the temple, took out his eye, when he started to get into the car the same guy fired a cue ball, hit him in the head, knocked him out of the car. The girl took off, ran the guy over, broke his leg. He got arrested for beating up the manager, sitting in jail with no eye, broken leg, 20 some years in prison for attempted murder to boot. The cops watching the videos were cracking up saying "who's the old guy kicking everybody's ass"
 
Ah, David Carradine

cuesblues said:
They proceeded to beat the pool hall manager in the face with pool cues.

As they were leaving a friend of mine fired a javelin shot with a pool cue, hit one guy in the temple, took out his eye, when he started to get into the car the same guy fired a cue ball, hit him in the head, knocked him out of the car.

The cops watching the videos were cracking up saying "who's the old guy kicking everybody's ass"
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That's easy.....Kwai Chang Caine !!!

Smorgass "General Tso's Chicken" Bored :)
 
One of the first Jamboree's i attended at Hard Times there was a big fight DURING TOURNAMENT PLAY! In the tournament room! It was over a stupid $50 bet. Security did eventually break it up but no one was 86 for fighting. The parties involved were allowed to sit in the tournament room. A better policy has to be established and outdoor security has to be organized.
I personally never had any trouble at Hard Times except for some wise ass remarks by kids. But Chuck was always a great guy. Always welcoming and friendly.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
the bigdog..

Yes, I remember and I learned my lesson. Thanks for the reminder
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Tom,

You don't have anything to be sorry about. I was sitting next to you when you got the phone call about Raphael. You tried to verify it and it seemed to be from a very reliable source. What were you supposed to do, not mention to anyone that one of the best players in the world might be dead? As far as I'm concerned, you handled that very responsibly, so don't be sorry!
 
About the violence at Hardtimes, they do have quite a bit of security and I wouldn't want to mess with any one of their security staff because they're big and tough looking. That said, Hardtimes gets absolutely packed on Friday and Saturday nights. The sheriff's dept could have been there and it still probably would have gotten out of control. What's Chuck supposed to do when it gets that crowded? Sacramento is a very tough town and when you get a big crowd like that, anything can happen.

The nice thing about this place is that the tournament room is in the back and usually safe from all the craziness that occurs. I remember I was there once and was in the tournament room. I was just leaving out of the exit doors of the tournament room and there was a huge fight at the front door. The fight was just finishing up when I walked out. I never would have known about the fight had I not walked out at that time. This place is very big and if you're a serious pool player and stay in the tournament room, the odds are good that you might never even see a fight.
 
A similar incident took place back in around '89 or '90 at Hard Times in Bellflower. Chuck owned it back then. Luckily, there were no guns involved but Chuck was right there in the middle of it trying to chase the rioters off. He did get maced by his own security guard who was mace happy and spraying anyone who got close. It was able to go on for quite a long time before the cops arrived because, if you can believe this, there was a similar incident taking place at the same time at a bowling alley down the street.
 
Fights happen ever day all over the country. In fact I heard there was a major riot at the Sacramento Fair Grounds just a few weeks back and they had to shut the Fair gounds down, it that true? A few years back Bucktooth was at Pleasanton Fair gounds in Contra Costa County with his relatives just having a good time when gun shots went off and he and everyone had to duck for cover. I don't know the outcome of that day but there were problems at that Fair also.

Where ever young people gather there is going to be fights that occur at some point in time. Given today's gangs which are all over the nation often guns also come into play.

Lets all support the local businessman, Hard Times, and the sport as needed and hopefully the bad guys will be caught and prosecuted and put in a place for a long time where the walls are only 5' x 8' apart, so they can think about the problems they often create for others.
 
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People fight in malls, people fight in supermarkets, people fight in parking lots......does a fight at the mall stigmatize shoppers??? no, they say wow some dumb@$$ got in a fight at the mall, then they buy another pair of bad shoes. Fights happen everywhere and at anytime, unfortunate this happened in a pool hall, but I can safely bet there was a fight at a convinience store the same night, a supermarket the same night, a bowling alley the same night, a dance club the same night.....
 
tomincincy,

In this case, you have shot the messenger. Tpdm was just paraphrasing a news article, and then added his opinion. I think you were a little harsh, especially from such a level headed and responsible poster as yourself.

Rg
 
i was the tournament director at hardtimes in sac from the opening month in june of 98 to around 2000. chucks son mike is the majority owner . i asked him one time why he works so many employees at a time and he told me it was safer for everybody there if customers always seen an employee at all places in the building. on a weekend night theres at least 2 bar tenders, one cook, one clean up guy, on person at the ball control counter,2 waitresses, a manager(usually chuck too), and 3 or for security guards.
but when you take into consideration that the place is 14k square ft. with 30 tables, darts and a full arcade, and is the spot in town where all of the 17 to 24 age group of people are tryin to have a good time, well sh@t happens. it is unavoidable. and the residents around there should worry about the 3 strip clubs , and several bars within oh idunno, 3 blocks of them before hardtimes.
dont give tom too hard of a time, he has a unique job , and one that takes ,well lets say a balancing act and im leaving it at that!!
BIG DADDY.
 
VonRhett said:
Actually, what keeps pool and pool halls "stigmatized" is the fact that we've had yet another fight in yet another pool hall!

I haven't heard, seen or read about many fights, guns, etc., on a golf course or tennis courts.

My understanding is that there was indeed a gun shot; whether someone was hit or not.

But the fact remains that it was yet another big ass brawl in a Pool Hall, and the Owner is absolutely in the hospital. THAT'S what keeps the public opinion rather low.

Can you blame them??

Hell, after all these years we are still our own worse enemy.

-von
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Actually, what keeps pool and pool halls "stigmatized" is the fact that we've had yet another fight in yet another pool hall!

I have to disagree with you here, violence can occur anywhere. Next to the Pool Hall I own is a Donut Shop. Around six months ago, a man and lady entered the Donut Shop to buy some Donuts. Little did they know that the Lady's ex-husband was following them. While they were waiting for their Donuts, the exhuaband walks up to a window at the side of the Donut Shop and fires eight 9mm rounds through the window and hits both of them.

Do you think due to this problem that other people will be stigmatized and not buy Donuts in the future? The truth is random acts of violence can and on a daily basis happens in any setting.

I haven't heard, seen or read about many fights, guns, etc., on a golf course or tennis courts

The above statement is very true, but why is it? In days past Pool and Billiards was also like Golf and Tennis, in respect to the people that were the target audience. Around the turn of the Century, people of all walks of life would fill auditoriums to watch matches by Professional Pool and billiard Players. Then the demographics and the big business backing of all cue sports changed throughout the United States. Cue Sports became a form of entertainment that was enjoyed in Bars and Pool rooms away from public eyes. Also during this time all forms of gambling were looked down upon, by the general public and this is how Cue Sports survived.

Now, the impact a pool room can have on a community is certainly directly due to the owner of the establishment. If the room owner takes a personal interest in keeping the bad element out, the employee's will also act in a like manner, or they will be looking for other forms of employment.
I opened my room in September of 2004, my room is all ages, although I do serve alcohol (Beer). Now with that said, many people would suspect that having an all ages room is going to be trouble. This is not case, I have not had a single problem in the 3 years that I have been open. In fact the teenagers have no problem following rules if they are aware of them, if they are treated with respect, and if they are given an environment when they do not have to look over their shoulders. By keeping the bad element out all these things can work, and work very well. So, over all I have to say Pool Rooms are what the owner makes them and know one else is responsible for the problems that occur due to the actions of the patrons. Its kinda like a toilet, one big turd can stop up the pipes, but any turd can be flushed if the right pressure is applied.
 
manwon said:
Its kinda like a toilet, one big turd can stop up the pipes, but any turd can be flushed if the right pressure is applied.
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Craig,
There's absolutely nothing I can add to this! :p
-von
 
As a previous poolroom owner this annoys me to no end.

This is not a poolroom issue, it goes way beyond that. What this is, is a result of our entire society being scared of their shadow when it comes to political correctness, addressing moral values and standing behind individuals who are willing to call a spade a spade.

If it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, its a ##$$in duck.

If you look like a trouble maker, if you talk like a trouble maker, if you act like a wise ass, then thats EXACTLY what you are.

GET THE HELL OUT OF THE POOLROOM. That was my creed. I'd kick em out before they could ask for a table. Go dress like a human being, and talk like you have at least a third grade education, and then come back and try to get in again.

Since those values will never outwardly be shared, the good people in our society will be stuck worrying about scum like this whenever and where ever there is some type of public gathering. It doesn't matter where.
 
[QUOTE If the room owner takes a personal interest in keeping the bad element out, the employee's will also act in a like manner, or they will be looking for other forms of employment.
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Manwon,

I agree with you 100%. But Many owners do not that.Some owners with their weird logic resulting from pea brains/greediness/rigidity/insecurity/political and religious beliefs,think that they still can have a successfull buisiness even if the rowdy elements are present.They do not attempt to nip it in the Bud and later cry when it becomes a wild flower with bad odor and destroys the place

hired help is a big problem and for the low wages one ends up getting employees who may be crack heads or other misfits/unwanted elements of society.
Pool hall buisiness can be rewarding if it is run like a buisiness.:cool:
 
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As big a place as Hardtimes is, I don't think you could adequately screen everyone. Besides, some people are fine as long as they're stone sober. Give them a couple of beers and they might just turn into monsters.

The movie "Roadhouse" with Patrick Swayze is a good movie to watch to figure out how best to deal with problem people. Always talk soft, never get excited, and take it outside right away. You never want to get excited in the poolhall in front of everyone. It's kind of like stampeding a herd of cattle!

I worked in a ph for 3 years and we never had a problem. I had 5 guys in there once and they started acting out a little and I just motioned for the ring leader to come over to me. I talked to him very softly but what I told him was very deadly, knock it off or leave. He knew I wasn't playing. Had I confronted all five of them, I would have had a big fight on my hands.
 
As a previous owner/partner in several large poolrooms, I can tell you the emphasis is always on keeping an eye on what's going on inside the room. I constantly walk around the place and check out the people and see what's happening in every nook and cranny. If someone is getting too loud, I will walk over and just watch them for a while. Usually they get the message without me saying anything.

My philosophy is that the poolroom is neutral territory, where all people can mingle safely. I don't care what a guy does on the outside, in here he must mind his manners. He can be a gang leader or a dope dealer (I can't screen everybody) but when he is in my room, he must respect my equipment and the other customers. PERIOD!

The word gets around quick what you can or can't get away with in a place. The worst thing you can do to someone who wants to hang around your spot, is kick them out. So they mind their manners because they want to stick around. I have no problem confronting the biggest guys (and we had them at Hollywood Park) and telling them they have to keep it down, or not to sit on the tables, or don't set their drinks on the rails. I think they respected the fact that I would approach them myself with no bodyguards or other help.

My philosophy is that this is my place and I pay the bills. So the only one that is going to run it is me. I had one encounter with a gang member once where he said he would kick my ass if I bothered him anymore. He had three gangster buddies with him and they were playing pool, drinking beer and raising hell. I looked at him and told him he would have to kick my ass and eat me too. They all started laughing and that was the end of it.

So that's how I took care of things inside. Outside is another story. Sh-t happens in parking lots that can be out of your control. Hollywood Park had security to the max outside and still there were occasional fights, robberies and even a shooting or two. The most exciting part of my day was walking out at night with the days receipts in my pocket. It was after two in the morning and I was alone. Yes, I was packing my little .25 but I watched all around me to see if anyone was following me or hiding somewhere. I never parked in the same spot two nights in a row.

I know the brothers all respected me, but there were still a lot of outlaws in that neck of the woods. Just being extra careful was all I needed. And I was, every single night for four years. I was well aware of the potential dangers in being complacent.
 
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I'll echo what Jay said, and add to it, Hard Times in Sactown used to be a MUCH worse place than it is today. Chuck and Mike have cleaned up the place, ousted the gangs, and imo do a great job of offering a nice place to play pool. Obviously at some point, it's get's so crowded that problems can and will occur. But to put down the efforts of the owners to clean the place up, because of this one incident is imo out of place. Tom does a great job as tournament director, and Chuck & Mike do a great job as room owners. PERIOD! Many room owners could learn something from the way they run their business.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
yobagua said:
Why did you lose that spot Jay. It was a nice refuge from the card room
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Churchill Downs bought the property and would not renew my lease. I was a small fish in a very big pond. They bought me out of my remaining three years. I really had no choice.
 
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