Flame Away

please tell

John, I have had the pleasure of meeting you in the past and have always enjoyed your game and I think you are one of the "good guys" in this sport.
You have always carried yourself with pride.
I think I speak for more than a few of us when I say I would love to here the story of how you goy yo were you are.
So if your on the fence and don;t want to post it PM it to me I would be honored to here it.
 
John, I've enjoyed your comments on the old natural ability thing, and I agree with Joey A that you shouldn't toss it all out here and catch a lot of grief!

You say some are elite at everything they do, and I can buy that. It occurs to me, thinking about that again now, that maybe we are all hard-wired physically, mentally and emotionally (in varying degrees) to find a certain level, and that maybe you could tack a percentile on it. Training could raise you a few percentage points, but there would be an upper limit somewhere.

Me, I've had some successes, more than average, but have often fallen a little short of where I thought I could get to. Never quite got to 5.0 in tennis (though was No. 1 at my HS and all-county in a county of nearly 1M), (heck, I also was No. 1 trombone player with a similar profile there); still short of B level in pool ... better than most in many things, maybe 90th percentile case in a lot of respects, but body or mind have a way of zapping me before I get to the promised land. So far, at least!
 
Here is another way to think about this problem. Intellectual ability is determined by genetics and by the way we are raised. I like to compare it to the horsepower in a car. Most people get the standard Chevy engine. Some people get a Volkswagen and some get a Corvette. It is easier to make some of these engines more powerful by adding (training) equipment. But no matter what you do a Volkswagen will not compare with a Corvette.

Have you ever seen one of those Volkswagen’s made up to look like a Rolls Royce? All gussied up and no way to go. On the other hand I have met kids from deep in hillbilly country who culturally look and sound pretty bad. When you test the engine you find a Corvette in there.

Now the funny thing is, and most people do not realize it, but it only requires a Volkswagen engine to go to medical school (or pursue many other activities). These people are not world beaters but with the right upbringing and learning to be tenacious they get through all the hoops in life. We tend to think that life requires the standard Chevy engine when all that is required is the Volkswagen – after that it is all training, except of course for the people born with special talents and sometimes talents they can use in many areas.

It is doubtful that playing pool is any different. A little bit of skill goes a long way depending on how it is used.

That skinny kid in school can (and sometimes does) become a world class weight lifter and the Governor of Calif. And of course the problem is more complicated than simple intelligence. We can talk about each of the individual skills required to be a pool player. Some people get it all, some of us get a few talents, some don't get any and have to work extra hard.

After a few years hanging around schools and other people most of us know what kind of engine we have. Then we can complain we did not get a better one because we did not get the opportunities when in reality we did not develop the systems that would help us be more. Hey I am staying on topic !
 
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And I'm with JohnnyT on aiming. It's the least of your troubles! But things can go funny with your setup, your breathing, your eyes, your confidence, and a 75% shot can turn into a 25% shot pretty quickly.
 
hi

Here is another way to think about this problem. Intellectual ability is determined by genetics and by the way we are raised. I like to compare it to the horsepower in a car. Most people get the standard Chevy engine. Some people get a Volkswagen and some get a Corvette. It is easier to make some of these engines more powerful by adding (training) equipment. But no matter what you do a Volkswagen will not compare with a Corvette.

Have you ever seen one of those Volkswagen’s made up to look like a Rolls Royce? All gussied up and no way to go. On the other hand I have met kids from deep in hillbilly country who culturally look and sound pretty bad. When you test the engine you find a Corvette in there.

Now the funny thing is, and most people do not realize it, but it only requires a Volkswagen engine to go to medical school (or pursue many other activities). These people are not world beaters but with the right upbringing and learning to be tenacious they get through all the hoops in life. We tend to think that life requires the standard Chevy engine when all that is required is the Volkswagen – after that it is all training, except of course for the people born with special talents and sometimes talents they can use in many areas.

It is doubtful that playing pool is any different. A little bit of skill goes a long way depending on how it is used.

good post.
i could be wrong but heres another take.
lets say everybody on earth could play like johnny archer ,but it would take people with no natural ability ten years to play like him.people with tons of natural ability played like him in 2 years.
the people who took ten years would be broke because all they did was play 8 hours a day for ten years.they lost all their savings getting that good.the guy who took 2 years didnt go through his savings and is now making money on tour.

people say all the time if i practiced as much as the pros i would be as good as them.maybe so but the pros got that good so quick that by the time the average player was as good as them the natural player has experience,many wins,sponsors,money saved up etc.



maybe all natural ability will do is make you great much quicker than average.i think that is key though because life is short and if it takes someone to long to be as great as the guy who did it in half the time than youve lost to much ground to him to compete anyway.

all this would be based on the idea that anybody could play pro which im assuming we would all agree is not the case.

you know diliberto was a ranked pro boxer,world class poolplayer,bowled a 300 game a few times i believe,and was on a pro baseball team.hard to believe i know but if people think genetically some are not superior to others i think they are kidding themselves.jmho
 
JoeW, I like the engine analogy. As far as pool goes, I do wonder what the top speed of a VW engine can be, of course. No doubt we can all get more out of our particular power plants, though.

What sort of system one uses is another question. Some take naturally to them. I don't, though. I tend to go with the old rote "system." If it gives you trouble, burn it into your brain until you understand it. A small advance for me came when I realized not to just remember what a shot looks like, but also how it feels on contact and to be sure to concentrate on that while shooting, too.
 
The second part of the talent thing I think involves the things we like to do. Some people find they are not good at basketball, just too short, and so they grow up not liking basketball and they never become very good at it. Other people find that because they are tall, basketball is easy to master and they spend all their time playing basketball. This leads to neglecting other areas of life and they are not very good at getting along with others because they have become so aggressive over time (a trained aspect that goes with playing sports).

So life is full of tradeoffs and some times we do not realize what the trades will be or that the trades we have made will have serious consequences for some other aspect of life. If we are lucky it doesn’t cost too much to be really good at something.

And I would agree with John, the Dilbertos in life can more easily move from area to area.
I did not like that kid in school who never had to do homework and always got A grades. But then he is still a dork to this day because he has only one talent. It helps to be well rounded in life and some people get it all.

I dramatized the basketball thing, but you get the idea.:grin:

Yeah, most of us will never play like that teenager in Europe who has run xx snooker games. If you got, you got it and the rest can only try to keep up.
Give hime a stick, a table and 30 minutes and he is an instant pro !!

The Volkswagen tops out at about 80 - 85 but most states have a 65 mph speed limit. The Corvette is useful for showing off and getting out of tight spots. BTW if you have a Corvette you probably move out west where you can let it out and that comes with trade offs. If you stay on the east coat you are up for trouble if you use what you have. To all things there is a time and a place, turn, turn, turn.
 
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hi

The second part of the talent thing I think involves the things we like to do. Some people find they are not good at basketball, just too short, and so they grow up not liking basketball and they never become very good at it. Other people find that because they are tall, basketball is easy to master and they spend all their time playing basketball. This leads to neglecting other areas of life and they are not very good at getting along with others because they have become so aggressive over time (a trained aspect that goes with playing sports).

So life is full of tradeoffs and some times we do not realize what the trades will be or that the trades we have made will have serious consequences for some other aspect of life. If we are lucky it doesn’t cost too much to be really good at something.

And I would agree with John, the Dilbertos in life can more easily move from area to area.
I did not like that kid in school who never had to do homework and always got A grades. But then he is still a dork to this day because he has only one talent. It helps to be well rounded in life and some people get it all.

I dramatized the basketball thing, but you get the idea.:grin:

Yeah, most of us will never play like that teenager in Europe who has run xx snooker games. If you got, you got it and the rest can only try to keep up.


The Volkswagen tops out at about 80 - 85 but most states have a 65 mph speed limit. The Corvette is useful for showing off and getting out of tight spots. BTW if you have a Corvette you probably move out west where you can let it out and that comes with trade offs. If you stay on the east coat you are up for trouble if you use what you have. To all things there is a time and a place, turn, turn, turn.

good post joe spot on. you know you mention basketball and it makes me think of shaq.
hes shot as many free throws as anybody .compared to the top guys hes horrible.free throws require touch ,mental toughness etc.he makes millions but when it comes to having a deft touch his brain just will not send the right firing message to his muscles as well as other players.

i just think peoples brains work different.actually im starting to think being pro at pool might have less to do with hand eye and more about the neck up.well actually the neck up is what controls the hand eye so who knows.
again some people are great at almost everything they do in a short time and it pisses me off lol.
 
Watching some people kick a ball 3,4, 5 rails and then pocket the object ball now that is really irritating. I think to myself, “How can anybody do that?” The ability to see those lines is a natural, God given, talent and the rest of us stand in awe of it. But then people who sing get to me too as I can’t tune a radio.

I think that because playing pool is a multifaceted sport some people can be better in one area than in another. Perhaps this is why billiards appeals to some but not others.
 
The Player

good post.
i could be wrong but heres another take.
lets say everybody on earth could play like johnny archer ,but it would take people with no natural ability ten years to play like him.people with tons of natural ability played like him in 2 years.
the people who took ten years would be broke because all they did was play 8 hours a day for ten years.they lost all their savings getting that good.the guy who took 2 years didnt go through his savings and is now making money on tour.

people say all the time if i practiced as much as the pros i would be as good as them.maybe so but the pros got that good so quick that by the time the average player was as good as them the natural player has experience,many wins,sponsors,money saved up etc.



maybe all natural ability will do is make you great much quicker than average.i think that is key though because life is short and if it takes someone to long to be as great as the guy who did it in half the time than youve lost to much ground to him to compete anyway.

all this would be based on the idea that anybody could play pro which im assuming we would all agree is not the case.

you know diliberto was a ranked pro boxer,world class poolplayer,bowled a 300 game a few times i believe,and was on a pro baseball team.hard to believe i know but if people think genetically some are not superior to others i think they are kidding themselves.jmho


Greetings,

I applogize for this rather long post and hope not to ramble but here it is.
There appears to be a lot of wisdom in these posts and I thought I would add my two cents for what it is worth.

I spent a life time in pool halls and on golf courses worldwide for many decades and found some interesting correlations from my perspective.

In my experience I've seen literally thousands of golfers and pool players a few great, some very good and lots of mediocre to poor. Most have the ability but lack the desire, commitment and dedication to overcome the conceptual and technical misconceptions to master the skills required to excel.

Golf is a counter intuitive game in that most things that you think would be essential for success actually turns out to be a detriment that creates a huge negative feedback loop that destroys any long term progress.

Yes, good instruction from an instructor that can actually relate to the student such that visual and mechanical feedback from the learning process can be integrated with the associated muscle feedback memory of actually doing the correct action.

Aside from the physical fundamentals of the game(s) most golfers and pool players have alignment problems and especially in golf alignment is critical in producing the desired ball flight and direction. This problem becomes greater as the distance of the ball to the target increases because of the unintentional spin induced curve of the ball due to poor alignment.

Alignment is critical in both games and if executed properly the ball goes on line. The brain is a complex and awesome biological computer and will subconsciously try to over compensate the alignment errors through other muscle actions producing off target spin induced hits that create that curve off the intended target ball line.

If you ever go to a golf driving range take the time to watch the golfers and just ask them where they are aiming. Some will say aimlessly out there while others will have a more general target area and a very few others a very defined target. However, I find that even the very good golfers who may think they are aligned correctly are not let alone the others who have no clue.

In the early 60's I had the opportunity to watch Ben Hogan one of the greatest all time ball strikers in golf practice and play in the PGA tournament. When I asked what was his target was while practicing on the range with a 2-iron, he pointed to a tree around 220 yards out and said "do you see that patch of gray bark 1/3 the way up the tree, well that's it." Yes he hit that spot 3 out of 10 times and barely missed with the other balls that he rifled at that target.

For Hogan grip and alignment were critical elements providing the foundation for his specific swing mechanics that repeated perfectly through all those years from deeply ingrained knowledge, lessons learned and dedicated practice. Although Hogan was a more mechanical type of player he certainly also relied on the feel of his swing mechanics and the results it produced.

Most pool players know where they should hit the object ball to make the shot but poor alignment creates a host of mis-directed hits on the cue ball.
I hope I didn't bore those who took the time to read these thoughts.

Thanks
 
Along the lines of the Volkswagen/Corvette idea, I tell my students that even though a household light bulb is a lot brighter than a flashlight bulb, you can see farther with the flashlight because it is focused. To quote an age-old, risqué saying, "It ain't what you've got, it's how you use it."

Everyone would pretty much agree that winning a Nobel prize in science means you are a genius, but Dick Feynman only had a tested IQ of 124, cosiderably less than the 140 generally assumed to mean "genius". His sister, who has no claim to fame used to kid him about being smarter because she scored a point higher. In any high school, anywhere, you'll find tons of kids who beat Feynman's piddly score, yet he did world-class work in physics and chemistry, and they probably won't.

I don't believe his success was due to natural talent--I think it was motivation and focus. Given a certain minimum ability, those two things are much more important than points on a test. I think in pool the most important ability is the same thing that makes the current crop of kids good at video games--the ability to quickly see patterns. I believe that is very trainable.

As for kicking 3-4-5 rails--that is also a very trainable skill, and one of the systems can help get you there. *smile*
 
hi

you make very good points.
the pga tour players have all trained as hard as tiger,played as much and practiced as much.some pga tour guys have been on tour 20 years with 0 wins.trust me natural ability,genetics what ever you want to call it is why tiger has 70 plus wins and say skip kendall has 0 after 20 years.you could not train kendall to play like furyk much less tiger.
same with pool anybody could be good but to say with proper training they will be world class ,well im not to sure about that.
 
There is no money in telling someone the secret to aiming is practice. That is why the real pros cannot and are not able to tell you their secret aiming system. The secret is not a secret, it comes from hours of hitting balls.

Don Feeney claims in one of his videos that one pro would shoot the same shot for 3 to 4 hours. Someone asked him why did he do that and he said because it always comes up in a game. Another was a fameous snooker player that was asked if using right english on a shot would help to make it and he was told "NO, NO, NO you shoot it 500 times"

The way to make money is to come up with a gimmick. The real secret to the gimmick is that it makes the player practice, doesn't matter if it really helps because the player will naturally get better from the practice.

I"m going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. If a player practices "bad mechanics" or "bad technique" the player will not get better but only reinforce their "bad habbits". Knowledge is power, and doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is just crazy.

JMHO,
 
But no matter what you do a Volkswagen will not compare with a Corvette.

Hmm I don't know.. bore it out, add a supercharger and a 250 shot of NOS and i think you might have a Vette level performer there Joe.

Also the Volkswagen Group produces a variety of brands: The Group is made up of nine brands from seven European countries: Volkswagen, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Scania, SEAT, Skoda
and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles.

And i'm sorry but the Bugatti and Lamborghini just blow away the stock Vettes with the possible exception of the ZR1. So don't knock the VW :)
 
Watching some people kick a ball 3,4, 5 rails and then pocket the object ball now that is really irritating. I think to myself, “How can anybody do that?” The ability to see those lines is a natural, God given, talent and the rest of us stand in awe of it. But then people who sing get to me too as I can’t tune a radio.

I think that because playing pool is a multifaceted sport some people can be better in one area than in another. Perhaps this is why billiards appeals to some but not others.

They have tests they give kids to measure their spatial reasoning capabilities. Some do very well, others not quite as well. Spatial reasoning is the skill needed to see that 4 rail kick. So, to a point, the ability to learn to make that shot might be considered natural ability. But nobody makes that shot without having put in the hours on the practice table. That part is not natural ability, but the result of hard work.

Hand-eye coordination is another of those skills that are very useful in pool. We all have it to some degree. We don't all develop it to the same level.

Steve
 
I"m going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. If a player practices "bad mechanics" or "bad technique" the player will not get better but only reinforce their "bad habbits". Knowledge is power, and doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is just crazy.

JMHO,

Guess that depends, the "bad" habit may become the stroke. If one practices enough, learns to correct for quirks, and can achive near perfection that is what matters. Even with a poor stroke for people such as Greenleaf, Hoppe, McCready and a few of the others their individual strokes became the way for that person to play at a professional level. Mechanics are only part of the game. The individual's mechanics may or may not cause trouble. Try to tell Allen Hopkins that his stroke is too short or Effren Reyes that his stroke often exceeds the natural pendulum and sometimes includes an elbow drop and you are likely to be laughed out of the room by others if not the humble genius himself. These players kept doing the same thing over and over again and I doubt they were crazy. What that cute phrase neglects is the idea that "normal" people can and do self correct until they get it right. That is what practice is all about. If you don't learn to self correct (with or without help) then perhaps you are crazy.

I suspect that what you are implying is that people who pay you money to learn "better" mechanics may progress faster than they would without your approach.

Shame you need to be so literal about the VW bug, perhaps you missed the concept that was being illustrated with words or were you just trying to confuse the issue. "If you find a mistake here please understand that we try to have something for everyone," read that somewhere and always wanted to use it.

Spacial reasonng and the ability to do real work within those spaces may or may not be the same thing. There are some mathematicians (with excellent spacial reasoning) who can't find their butt with both hands.Though I agree that these are to some extent trainable.
 
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The Player

you make very good points.
the pga tour players have all trained as hard as tiger,played as much and practiced as much.some pga tour guys have been on tour 20 years with 0 wins.trust me natural ability,genetics what ever you want to call it is why tiger has 70 plus wins and say skip kendall has 0 after 20 years.you could not train kendall to play like furyk much less tiger.
same with pool anybody could be good but to say with proper training they will be world class ,well im not to sure about that.

John,

As you stated correctly, natural ability, talent, solid foundations etc. are all important but you still have to have the drive, desire and know how to win.

Tiger's father was a very major factor in helping to shape his mental ability and fortitude in how to win similar to the famous ancient Chinese military strategy genius Sun Tsu only applied to golf.

Tiger's father new very well that it would take more than talent and ability to win and he was was well versed in Asian mental and martial arts philosophies. He was successful in his venture as evidenced by Tiger's success.

Yes this is a very regimented approach that has served Asian culture for thousands of years and is very much alive and taught within their current educational systems as a competitive weapon against Western culture for winning the long term battle. In my experience most people outside the military are not comfortable with this type of mental and physical conditioning which is the lens that focuses mind and body as one in attaining goals and objectives.

Sorry for the rambling, have a great day!


Larry
 
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