Forcing the CB off the rail, does inside english help?

KoolKat9Lives

KoolKat9Lives

Taught 'em all I know
Silver Member
I don't know if this is the best example, but I'm wondering if english sometimes helps get the CB further off the rail in a forced shot. In this case, would hitting a touch of inside english to set up the 10 in the corner, get the CB off the rail easier than any other shot? You'd have to hit a little lower on the CB to compensate to come off in the correct direction.

If not, what's the best way (besides cheating the pocket) to maximize distance on a forced position shot?

CueTable Help




CueTable Help

 
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On that shot I believe I would just draw with a little inside med soft stroke for the 10-ball. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
On that shot I believe I would just draw with a little inside med soft stroke for the 10-ball. Johnnyt
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In the past I'd be inclined to hammer it with stun and a touch of outside. Now however, I'm wondering if instead, by using a touch of inside and low it will cause the CB to rebound further than outside using the same speed.
 
I'd use high running english.. come off 2 or 3 rails as long as you get past the 10 you have a shot on it...

but that's just me:rolleyes:
 
I to would use a little draw to get back to the middle of the table for the 10 ball. The table I play on shooting the force stun shot is the lower percentage shot. How the table plays will always affect what shot I choose to play.
 
softshot said:
I'd use high running english.. come off 2 or 3 rails as long as you get past the 10 you have a shot on it...

but that's just me:rolleyes:
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I'm just wondering about forced positional shots and the affect english plays, not so much "how do you play this particular shot?" So I added another cuetable in the OP to try and get people more focused on the forced shot and not the cuetable shot (if ya know what I mean ;))

In this case I may not use the force position shot, but if I did, how do I get it the furthest and most efficiently off the rail...
 
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I've wondered the same thing. You gave a bad example of it unfortunately cuz a thousand people will tell you high inside and go 2 rails rather than forcing it off. But I get exactly what you're asking. I think.

You're wondering if by using inside, you can cut the ball a little thinner and throw it into the pocket. And thinner hit = more cueball travel.

It's a perfect question for dr. dave. On the one hand english takes less at high speed. On the other hand a hard hit = slightly more spin, and at certain shallow angles it might have an effect even at rocket speed.

My feeling is: No. You don't want to try to help this sort of shot with inside. The speed is so high that the amount of throw is fairly small, and you already need to be dead accurate to pound a ball down the rail into the corner. Adding english makes it harder to aim accurately. You will get better results by carefully cheating the pocket as much as you can and pounding center ball with as much force as you dare.
 
I not 100%

I think it is all about the speed. My thought is at with the speed needed to shoot the shot that english would not have much effect. By hitting the ball at warp speed you do not need very much angle to get the ball to move off the rail.


KoolKat9Lives said:
I'm just wondering about forced positional shots and the affect english plays, not so much "how do you play this particular shot?" So I added another cuetable in the OP to try and get people more focused on the forced shot and not the cuetable shot (if ya know what I mean ;))

In this case I may not use the force position shot, but if I did, how do I get it the furthest and most efficiently off the rail...
Click to expand...
 
Inside English may help you throw the object ball just a bit by putting a little bit of "twist" onto the object ball. What this will do is to allow you to hit the object ball a little thinner (which means that you can get a better tangent line for bouncing the cue ball off of the side rail).

On this shot, it is far more important to stun the cue ball until it hits the object ball, which will impart the most "twist"/spin on the object ball which will help the object ball to hit the outside of the pocket with a miniscule amount of left English which will also help in pocketing the shot.
There's some web site out there that has hi-speed, slow motion videos of these types of shots and literature to go along with it but I can't remember the website name.


In addition to stunning the cue ball maybe with a small amount of draw for shape purposes, a VERY, LIGHT GRIP on the cue stick will do wonders for this particular shot, speed as needed, tangent line as needed. Using the strength of your muscles on this shot will help FAIL. It is not a power shot.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Inside English may help you throw the object ball just a bit by putting a little bit of "twist" onto the object ball. What this will do is to allow you to hit the object ball a little thinner (which means that you can get a better tangent line for bouncing the cue ball off of the side rail).

On this shot, it is far more important to stun the cue ball until it hits the object ball, which will impart the most "twist"/spin on the object ball which will help the object ball to hit the outside of the pocket with a miniscule amount of left English which will also help in pocketing the shot.
There's some web site out there that has hi-speed, slow motion videos of these types of shots and literature to go along with it but I can't remember the website name.


In addition to stunning the cue ball maybe with a small amount of draw for shape purposes, a VERY, LIGHT GRIP on the cue stick will do wonders for this particular shot, speed as needed, tangent line as needed. Using the strength of your muscles on this shot will help FAIL. It is not a power shot.

JoeyA
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What does the light grip do, physics wise, to the CB?

Thanks!
 
whoa man, when you added the second shot diagram you change the dynamic completely... THe second shot with all the balls/traffic requires stun w touch/left (outside)... Im processing this in my head lookinbg at the cuetable diagram and I think inside stun woould doexactly the opposite of what you diagram? The Cueball would be forced onto the opposite (past) side of the 6 ball, on the shortside. your general question, about maximum movement/minimum "power" moving the cueball "around" (not up/down the table nessasarily) the table... pure running rights & lefts...? imo.
 
CreeDo said:
I've wondered the same thing. You gave a bad example of it unfortunately cuz a thousand people will tell you high inside and go 2 rails rather than forcing it off. But I get exactly what you're asking. I think.

You're wondering if by using inside, you can cut the ball a little thinner and throw it into the pocket. And thinner hit = more cueball travel.

It's a perfect question for dr. dave. On the one hand english takes less at high speed. On the other hand a hard hit = slightly more spin, and at certain shallow angles it might have an effect even at rocket speed.

My feeling is: No. You don't want to try to help this sort of shot with inside. The speed is so high that the amount of throw is fairly small, and you already need to be dead accurate to pound a ball down the rail into the corner. Adding english makes it harder to aim accurately. You will get better results by carefully cheating the pocket as much as you can and pounding center ball with as much force as you dare.
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If you're talking about what is the best way to shoot this shot then a Donnie Mills explanation or maybe a Chris Bartram suggestion would be the nuts. (Just hope they don't say, "You just gotta hit it good".):D
 
thats a good shot for having in your bag, great in 8 ball and one pocket for sure

KoolKat9Lives said:
What does the light grip do, physics wise, to the CB?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

it keeps you from interfering with the momentum of the cue upon delivery, which will kill all the action on the CB and make you shoot harder or with more english to accomplish the same thing.


I know the type of inside shot your talking about kat, your looking to hit a little jacked up low inside....you don't have to stroke it quite as hard as when hitting with outside and poping out....its quite similar to a stun shot....

the inside makes it come off the rail more square and the jacked up low is what is going to give you the final placement.

Thats going to get you nearly straight across to the other side and just a little bit back....when you hit it with outside you swing wide and low so you got a longer shot. The inside low will let you transverse side to side to get a better angle on the next shot.

hope that helps,
Grey Ghost
 
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Another option depending on the angle of the shot is to elevate the butt of the cue to about 10 degrees or so and shoot the cue ball with nothing but a below center hit. The cue ball will essentially bounce off of the rail with backspin from the slight jump you are imparting to it. Doesnt need to be hit hard to get the desired action on the cue ball.
Chuck
 
I like your answer. FYI, here are some videos that's aren't exactly on topic, but certainly relevant:


Regards,
Dave

CreeDo said:
... On the one hand english takes less at high speed. On the other hand a hard hit = slightly more spin, and at certain shallow angles it might have an effect even at rocket speed.

My feeling is: No. You don't want to try to help this sort of shot with inside. The speed is so high that the amount of throw is fairly small, and you already need to be dead accurate to pound a ball down the rail into the corner. Adding english makes it harder to aim accurately. You will get better results by carefully cheating the pocket as much as you can and pounding center ball with as much force as you dare.
Click to expand...
 
KoolKat9Lives said:
I don't know if this is the best example, but I'm wondering if english sometimes helps get the CB further off the rail in a forced shot. In this case, would hitting a touch of inside english to set up the 10 in the corner, get the CB off the rail easier than any other shot? You'd have to hit a little lower on the CB to compensate to come off in the correct direction.

If not, what's the best way (besides cheating the pocket) to maximize distance on a forced position shot?

CueTable Help




CueTable Help

Click to expand...

Yes, it can add a little speed to the shot because it changes the aim point to make the cut thinner, but...

I would say the best shot here is just the good old "pound" shot. Even though you hit it very firm, I find the pound is easier to aim than a firm english shot. You hardly need any angle on simonis to achieve some pretty dramatic effects. These shots have more angle than needed.

You can use the pound on any shot combined with small amounts of side, draw, or follow to achieve amazing effects. I like to stay within a dime circle of center for accuracy. It's a good shot to practice.

Chris
 
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