Foreign Players-Why are they here?

JB Cases said:
PS, Jennie before you split can I get that fiffy since my man won last time? :-) I am down to Mikey Frost this session and I need to balance my books....
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You have been on my mind, but I'm not sure how to get it to you over there. Snail mail seems so unpredictable. Can I charge it with AMEX? I don't use PayPal. That said, if you'd prefer snail mail, it would be my pleasure to send it. PM me your postal address.

Do you want to do it again in 2012? I'll take the same side. :thumbup:
 
JB Cases said:
Right! For the most part they are all friends. This picture is great and rare for another reason.....it's one of the few where Keith isn't the one with a beer in his hand. Keith should be getting royalties from Budweiser for all the pix of him with a Bud in his hand. Just kidding Jennie, I don't think it's all that many.

And THANK you for all the pictures you have shared over the years. Some of us really really appreciate them.
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This picture was taken the same night that you backed Keith against that dude from Michigan with the blond-haired girlfriend. I can't remember his name. :embarrassed2:
 
JAM said:
This picture was taken the same night that you backed Keith against that dude from Michigan with the blond-haired girlfriend. I can't remember his name. :embarrassed2:
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LOL I was just thinking that.
 
JB Cases said:
Stevie got flat out ROBBED. Period. He should SUE the BCA and the WPA. What he should sue for is restraint of trade and loss of income.

I don't know that this is even possible but he should try it.

After all these years you would think that the WPA COULD have some sort of confirmation system in place, you know like when you make a hotel reservation and you get a confirmation #???

This is straight up ridiculous that the BCA is handing out spots to foreign players when American players are left with no spot....
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I wonder how much money our American pro player, Stevie Moore, lost flying to China and back,
not able to play in the event.

That really sucks! :(
 
JAM said:
You have been on my mind, but I'm not sure how to get it to you over there. Snail mail seems so unpredictable. Can I charge it with AMEX? I don't use PayPal. That said, if you'd prefer snail mail, it would be my pleasure to send it. PM me your postal address.

Do you want to do it again in 2012? I'll take the same side. :thumbup:
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You know me, I have to let it ride! I think O is going to fire up some change and when November 4th rolls around America will be flush again and let him rock on.

Plus I have a thing for underdogs. Just gives me great pleasure when they outrun the nuts. Although looking at what the other sides have to offer I don't think Obama is much of an underdog no matter what.

I see Obama's campaign slogan now, "America, We Outrun the Nuts"
 
JB Cases said:
You know me, I have to let it ride! I think O is going to fire up some change and when November 4th rolls around America will be flush again and let him rock on.

Plus I have a thing for underdogs. Just gives me great pleasure when they outrun the nuts. Although looking at what the other sides have to offer I don't think Obama is much of an underdog no matter what.

I see Obama's campaign slogan now, "America, We Outrun the Nuts"
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For sure, the recent turn of events is a big bonus for the Obama 2012 campaign. That said, the right wing just caught on to this "community organizing" concept by Alinsky. There will be a new Republican Party image in 2012, one that's technologically competent. I remember doing an interview with McCain during the campaign when he said he had never used e-mail before. I was shocked. I work with a lot of political entities in my neck of the woods, and there's talk about a new face coming to the Republican scene.

Hey, I just thought of something. If the pool players created a political lobby machine, it just might get pool noticed. The league system could write to the congressional representatives stating they will provide support if blah, blah, blah. The tens of thousands of members of leagues might get pool's foot with the door on the media. Hey, it's worth a shot. :)
 
JAM said:
I wonder how much money our American pro player, Stevie Moore, lost flying to China and back,
not able to play in the event.

That really sucks! :(
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About 12-1800 is what the flights cost if you book far enough in advance. He was rooming with Johnny and had about 3 nights in I think so that's about $150. Another $200 or so for related travel expenses and I'd say he was out about 2k before he hit a ball. Of course then he left early which probably cost him another grand to change the flight. I heard that he was given $500 for compensation. Don't know if that's true.

And of course he didn't get any points towards the world ranking. I think that if you are top sixteen in the world then you get guaranteed spots in the events. Not sure on that either.

It was brutal to watch him play in the qualifier. It was so evident that he was completely out of it. And then to have to play where they played was just insulting.

The whole event stunk frankly. I have a lot more to say about it but I will reserve it for another thread if I feel like it.

----------------------------------------------------

As to why some foreign players like to come to America. Easy, pool is more FUN in the USA. Over here in China I have 100 pool rooms in a 20 mile radius. I have 150 tables within a ten minute walk from my house and there are NO weekly tournaments, no fun pool scene, no leagues, sporadic monthly events, no tours and no one plays anything but 9 ball and some weird form of 8 ball and the Taiwanese 3 ball carom game. I have to twist people's arms to get them to play one pocket. Forget banks. Some 14.1 once in a while.

I was just in Beijing and all they had there are 9ft English billiard tables. And all they play on these tables is 8 ball. Almost every pool room in Beijing has these tables we were told and it's rare to see a regular pool table.

Here, every pro's dream who I talk to is to go to America and play professionally there. I think that for most in the world America remains a beacon and a destination. In many ways America is still the free-est country on Earth when it comes to the ability for most people to pretty much do what they want without interference. For whatever reason the players here still see the American pool scene as something to be conquered in order to be complete as a pro. Maybe it's because they see players like Pan Xiao Ting and Ding Jun Hui getting such praise and accolades every time they win abroad.

They don't seem to think that the American pool scene is as bad as we think it is.
 
JB Cases said:
About 12-1800 is what the flights cost if you book far enough in advance. He was rooming with Johnny and had about 3 nights in I think so that's about $150. Another $200 or so for related travel expenses and I'd say he was out about 2k before he hit a ball. Of course then he left early which probably cost him another grand to change the flight. I heard that he was given $500 for compensation. Don't know if that's true.

And of course he didn't get any points towards the world ranking. I think that if you are top sixteen in the world then you get guaranteed spots in the events. Not sure on that either.

It was brutal to watch him play in the qualifier. It was so evident that he was completely out of it. And then to have to play where they played was just insulting.

The whole event stunk frankly. I have a lot more to say about it but I will reserve it for another thread if I feel like it.

----------------------------------------------------

As to why some foreign players like to come to America. Easy, pool is more FUN in the USA. Over here in China I have 100 pool rooms in a 20 mile radius. I have 150 tables within a ten minute walk from my house and there are NO weekly tournaments, no fun pool scene, no leagues, sporadic monthly events, no tours and no one plays anything but 9 ball and some weird form of 8 ball and the Taiwanese 3 ball carom game. I have to twist people's arms to get them to play one pocket. Forget banks. Some 14.1 once in a while.

I was just in Beijing and all they had there are 9ft English billiard tables. And all they play on these tables is 8 ball. Almost every pool room in Beijing has these tables we were told and it's rare to see a regular pool table.

Here, every pro's dream who I talk to is to go to America and play professionally there. I think that for most in the world America remains a beacon and a destination. In many ways America is still the free-est country on Earth when it comes to the ability for most people to pretty much do what they want without interference. For whatever reason the players here still see the American pool scene as something to be conquered in order to be complete as a pro. Maybe it's because they see players like Pan Xiao Ting and Ding Jun Hui getting such praise and accolades every time they win abroad.

They don't seem to think that the American pool scene is as bad as we think it is.
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Man, that is so interesting. I appreciate you sharing the pool scene from China. Wow! I wonder why there's no leagues. You would think this would be something that could be popular with so many pool rooms in the area.

Again, poor Stevie Moore. That is really tragic and unfair, IMHO. Why should Mika get a chance at receiving those ranking points, thanks to the BCA, and not our American pro player, Stevie Moore?

Again, pool politics at its finest. The industry members of the BCA look after the players who benefit them most, whether they're American or not. This ain't right.
 
I know that it is on average $1600 to fly to China. Plus you have the cost of the Visa to get in to China, about $150 depending how you get it. Then it is usually $70-$100 a night for the hotel. The good thing is that it is cheap to eat!

Keep in mind too, that a lot of players get invited to multiple events that are close together so the logical choice is to stay in Asia rather than flying back and forth in a three week period. I have done this before after being invited to tournaments 3 weeks apart. The cost of that trip for flight, accomodations, etc., was about $5000.

JB, you and I have spoke about all of the issues with things in the pool world. Obviously, no one listens to the ones that speak out. I have lots of opinions of the way things go, but I'm going to keep them to myself. I've learned my lesson I guess. Also, you are right, the top 16 WPA ranked players get automatic invites to tournaments that are within 90 days of the ranking change. Example, if you were ranked top 16 after the World 8ball you were automatically invited to the Philippine Open, and Beijing Open and the World 10-ball. The China Open is dependant on your finish at the Philippine Open I believe.
 
jb cases said:
stevie got flat out robbed. Period. He should sue the bca and the wpa. What he should sue for is restraint of trade and loss of income. I don't know that this is even possible but he should try it.
i feel really sorry that stevie dipped out of an opportunity to play in china. There was a thread on here a few months back by jerry forsyth which referred to a number of top us players who received invitations to play in wpa events but never took up the spots. But they omitted to inform the promoters that they were not going. Before you apportion blame it should be established that stevie formally replied to the invitation.

after all these years you would think that the wpa could have some sort of confirmation system in place, you know like when you make a hotel reservation and you get a confirmation #???
the invitations to wpa events is decided between the local promoter and ian anderson/wpa. The names are then forwarded on the the bca who then make contact with the named us players. To guarantee spots the bca should receive written acceptance and they , in turn, forward the info the the wpa

this is straight up ridiculous that the bca is handing out spots to foreign players when american players are left with no spot. Notice that jerry forsyth has nothing to say about this?

jerry has responded to similar situations in the recent past
 fran crimi has nothing to say about this.
and fran is no longer a wpa board member.
don't get me wrong i am all for players without a country getting into these events any way they can when spots are available. But to deny stevie in favor of mika was ridiculous. Stevie was forced to play in a three man qualifier race to seven. Why wasn't mika's name pulled out of the event and he made to play the qualifier? Mika's spot rightfully belonged to stevie moore no matter what else you want to say.

mika's spot was not rightfully stevie's. Mika earned ranking points from the world 8 ball which earned him his own spot.
Mika was not a bca pick and all this business about bca giving spots to non us players is baloney

and if they had three players who were supposed to be in but didn't get in then let them play full races to nine to see who gets the spot on the board. Not a piddly race to seven. And then to add insult to injury they made them play on the practice tables with the shitty lighting and of course in the worst high traffic spot where everyone was walking by. These players who flew all the way to china thinking that they had spots aren't even allowed to play on the tournament tables. How utterly crappy is that?
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i agree with your points in the final paragraph, but the chinese federation are newcomers to the major tournament scene and are still suffering teething troubles.

i DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPPENED TO MY PUNCTUATION. IT WAS THERE WHEN I SENT IT
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm *not* directing this following reply to you, Doug.

There's still a gray area about players receiving ranking points for WPA-sanctioned events. If Mika received ranking points, he probably is associated with some organizational entity. If it's not Europe because he does not participate in their events very often and it is not BCA, then it begs the question.

It is nice to know that Mika got WPA ranking points for his participation in Philippines. I'm still confused, though, about which side of the pond Mika is playing on. Does he wear Finland's flag or USA's flag when he's competing in WPA-sanctioned events in China?
 
JAM said:
Thanks for the reply. I'm *not* directing this following reply to you, Doug.

There's still a gray area about players receiving ranking points for WPA-sanctioned events. If Mika received ranking points, he probably is associated with some organizational entity. If it's not Europe because he does not participate in their events very often and it is not BCA, then it begs the question.

It is nice to know that Mika got WPA ranking points for his participation in Philippines. I'm still confused, though, about which side of the pond Mika is playing on. Does he wear Finland's flag or USA's flag when he's competing in WPA-sanctioned events in China?
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Mika is one of a growing band of players who need to resort to Flags of Convenience in order to survive. For the most part there is no need to append a country's name to a player. Pool is a sport for individuals and players can get their ranking points from the WPA rankings. This means that they are not compelled to be geographically dependent on the whims of continental federations.

By the way the World 8 Ball was in the Emirates not the Philippines
 
I should have clarified that I was told that Mika had received a BCA spot by a certified gilt-edged bonafide champion, to use the parlance of one who wants to make a point without naming names. So in essence my report about that aspect was hearsay.

Now, I'd still like to know how it is that Stevie Moore, who is quite diligent about these things, could fly all the way over to China and not have a spot?

I am sure Stevie will at some point chime in but he told me that that it was clear that he had a spot and that Jerry Forsyth had left his name off the list. His words as I understood them.

Ian Anderson did mention something to me about a rankings issue which I didn't fully understand as I am not familiar with how the WPA does their rankings.
 
pro9dg said:
Mika is one of a growing band of players who need to resort to Flags of Convenience in order to survive. For the most part there is no need to append a country's name to a player. Pool is a sport for individuals and players can get their ranking points from the WPA rankings. This means that they are not compelled to be geographically dependent on the whims of continental federations.

By the way the World 8 Ball was in the Emirates not the Philippines
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This makes a wee bit of sense to me, Doug. It this ideology is sound, then I say do away with the BCA and the other country/region pool organizational entities. All players will be treated equal under one umbrella, with no favoritism. All for one and one for all, as they say! :)
 
JB Cases said:
...
Ian Anderson did mention something to me about a rankings issue which I didn't fully understand as I am not familiar with how the WPA does their rankings.
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Join the club. Nobody knows what goes on behind the WPA closed curtains. There's no press releases by the WPA to inform the pool public about their activities. Rules are changed willy-nilly, and people find out about WPA activities and rule changes and sanction amounts after the fact.
 
Man, it's like going to the grocery store and buying so-called "natural chicken breasts." People pay good money for these chicken breasts. It says right there on the package: "natural chicken breasts."

The chicken breasts are injected with salt water. Should there be a label on the chicken breast saying they are injected with salt water? Should a label be on there detailing the salt water injection?

I'm not sure whether those chicken breasts are natural or not, but I might like to know before I buy it. I want a juicy chicken breast, but I might not want a "natural chicken breast" that is injected with salt water.

Labels are withheld in the U.S., but in Europe all salt water-injected chicken breasts have a label on them.
 
sarahrousey said:
I know that it is on average $1600 to fly to China. Plus you have the cost of the Visa to get in to China, about $150 depending how you get it. Then it is usually $70-$100 a night for the hotel. The good thing is that it is cheap to eat!

Keep in mind too, that a lot of players get invited to multiple events that are close together so the logical choice is to stay in Asia rather than flying back and forth in a three week period. I have done this before after being invited to tournaments 3 weeks apart. The cost of that trip for flight, accomodations, etc., was about $5000.

JB, you and I have spoke about all of the issues with things in the pool world. Obviously, no one listens to the ones that speak out. I have lots of opinions of the way things go, but I'm going to keep them to myself. I've learned my lesson I guess. Also, you are right, the top 16 WPA ranked players get automatic invites to tournaments that are within 90 days of the ranking change. Example, if you were ranked top 16 after the World 8ball you were automatically invited to the Philippine Open, and Beijing Open and the World 10-ball. The China Open is dependant on your finish at the Philippine Open I believe.
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Well, my opinion is that if you all got together and said no then someone would listen. Boycott the tournaments for a year and see how it goes. Unfortunately as one top pro made clear that's all well and good for me to say when my rent doesn't depend on tournament winnings and sponsors.

Still though you could band together and provide a voice. But as long as it's only one or two willing to speak out while the majority stay silent through fear or apathy then it's easy to dismiss the tiny minority.

But pool is one sport where the lack of organization is appalling and the players are treated like chattel for the most part. Sometimes they are treated better than other times but rarely are they treated like the world class performers that they are.

In this event the players were secondary to the "show". Too bad actually because with a little guidance, which one would expect the WPA to provide, it could have been a spectacular event. In any event I have some specific suggestions on that count which I will put forth in the other section Doug has set up for that purpose.
 
JAM said:
Man, it's like going to the grocery store and buying so-called "natural chicken breasts." People pay good money for these chicken breasts. It says right there on the package: "natural chicken breasts."

The chicken breasts are injected with salt water. Should there be a label on the chicken breast saying they are injected with salt water? Should a label be on there detailing the salt water injection?

I'm not sure whether those chicken breasts are natural or not, but I might like to know before I buy it. I want a juicy chicken breast, but I might not want a "natural chicken breast" that is injected with salt water.

Labels are withheld in the U.S., but in Europe all salt water-injected chicken breasts have a label on them.
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If salt water were the worst thing being injected into our food, we'd be doing OK...Growth hormones that cut the maturation time of our feed animals in half are a much more serious concern, imo.
 
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