Gradual Acceleration

[Dockter]

Thanks Pidge and all the other great people in this thread. These are the types of threads I came here for and you always deliver Pidge.

I would guess most of the missed shots that I should make are because I try to power the ball in and try putting to much crap on the ball, when I could hit softer with an identical result. I watched over some of my videos and when I'm trying to draw on a long shot there is no slow down at all. It's a fast "jerky" stroke no pause or slow down from the back stroke to the stroke itself. I will definitely be working on this.

For some reason rep won't work for me right now.

 

[dr_dave]

For those interested, lots of info (and a pertinent video) on this topic can be found on the stroke acceleration resource page.

It is very common for the cue speed to increase smoothly (with controlled acceleration) during the forward stroke, with the speed leveling off and becoming fairly constant (with the cue no longer accelerating) as the cue tip strikes the ball.

Regards,
Dave

Because it's so common for the cue speed to increase smoothly during the forward stroke as you mentioned above and because it seems to happen so naturally I really don't see the point of purposely trying to start your forward stroke even slower. I've tried this several times and it leads to the exact opposite of a smooth stroke. It seems like just having a distinct pause at the end of the backstroke would be enough to ensure a nice smooth acceleration of the cue on the forward stroke.

Messing with your delivery between the point of the pause and the finish of the cue doesn't seem like a good idea to me and for me it feels practically impossible.

FWIW, I agree with you. However, different people need to think different things to create the smooth acceleration for consistent speed control.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

This effect is well-documented for ball-ball friction during a collision, resulting in many of the well-known effects involving throw. However, the effect is different for a ball sliding on a cloth.

In the following paper, results from careful experiments show that the sliding friction between a ball and the cloth is fairly constant over a typical range of sliding speeds, with the sliding friction actually increasing slightly with speed. This is the opposite of the ball-ball collision friction effect.

Witters, J. and Duymelinck, D., "Rolling and sliding resistive forces on balls moving on a flat surface," American Journal of Physics, Vol. 54, No. 1, pp. 80-83, January, 1986.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks for the link Dave!

From the abstract, it doesn't seem they are actually testing the friction of a ball spinning while stationary on a surface.

Can be make such conclusions based on a study of a ball sliding at high speed across a cloth? Would seem to make some sense I guess.

Does it have a discussion on this aspect. I'd consider downloading it if it does.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Poolplaya9]

Perhaps I didn't explain very well...

Focusing on starting the cue very slowly for the first inch, maybe less if you have a short bridge.....I found I was able to control the straightness of the stroke on the delivery much much better. It stops me from clenching the grip at the transition, stops my forearm and biceps from tensing and overall allows for a much crisper hit on the cue ball.

By "crisper hit" did you simply mean that you hit the cue ball where you wanted and at the speed and angle you wanted? Those are of course the only things that directly affect what the cue ball does/how it reacts. If that is what you meant you may want to consider different terminology because I think many people read terms like crisper hit to imply that other things like acceleration and a loose grip somehow magically directly contribute to the cue ball's action when they don't and they instead just help to ensure that the cue ball is being hit in the spot and at the speed and angle that you intended.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Because it's so common for the cue speed to increase smoothly during the forward stroke as you mentioned above and because it seems to happen so naturally I really don't see the point of purposely trying to start your forward stroke even slower. I've tried this several times and it leads to the exact opposite of a smooth stroke. It seems like just having a distinct pause at the end of the backstroke would be enough to ensure a nice smooth acceleration of the cue on the forward stroke.

Messing with your delivery between the point of the pause and the finish of the cue doesn't seem like a good idea to me and for me it feels practically impossible.

I think I know what you are getting at and if so I agree but it is not really contradictory to what they are saying (unless I am misunderstanding). You do not want to start your stroke with one force and then very suddenly apply a much stronger force as if you had switched gears. That would indeed be jerky, exactly what you are trying to prevent.

I think all they are essentially saying is to not go from zero to full speed immediately in the first inch of your stroke, as that is very jerky also. Build up more smoothly and gradually to the full stroke speed at contact with the cue ball. For example, if you are going to hit the cue ball at 8 mph, don't take your cue from zero at the back swing to the full 8 mph in the first half inch of your stroke. That will jerk it offline. Don't even take it from zero at the back swing to 5 mph in the first half inch of your stroke and then accelerate more gradually from there to get that last 3 mph as that will tend to jerk it offline also. I think what they are saying is to simply accelerate smoothly and gradually right from the get go which means the cue is not moving super fast right at first. Maybe for that same 8 mph shot with an 8 inch bridge your cue is going 1 mph at the first inch, 2 mph at the second inch, 3 mph at the third inch, etc. And that may not be exactly right, but it might be a good way to think about it.

What I have found helps most with this is a relaxed arm and grip, a slow and smooth last back swing, and I have found that the pause at cue ball is many times more important than the pause at the rear as long as the last back swing is slow and smooth. In fact as long as there is a distinct pause at the cue ball and a slow last back swing and your arm is nice and relaxed I am not sure a distinct pause at the rear adds much at all. It certainly doesn't for me. Just my experience and perhaps somebody else's mileage may vary though.

I will say this though. If you watch the pros, some pause on the back swing for a split second, some for a long time, and many not at all, yet they all shoot great (none however start forward while still coming backwards if that makes sense though, the cue rather comes to or very near a natural stop/end before they begin the final forward stroke to hit the ball even if there is not necessarily an actual noticeable pause). But what they pretty much all have in common is some amount of pause at the cue ball, and a last back swing that is relatively slow and controlled/smooth. This seems to lend some support to the slow last back swing and the pause at the cue ball being the most important factors. A relaxed stroking arm/grip hand is also key but unfortunately a relaxed arm is something you can't really confirm by seeing someone on video but it certainly is very key.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks for the link Dave!

From the abstract, it doesn't seem they are actually testing the friction of a ball spinning while stationary on a surface.

Can be make such conclusions based on a study of a ball sliding at high speed across a cloth? Would seem to make some sense I guess.

Does it have a discussion on this aspect. I'd consider downloading it if it does.

Cheers,
Colin

They studied both rolling resistance (cloth "speed") and sliding resistance (drag action). Their sliding friction results apply to a ball sliding or spinning over the cloth. Their tests were done with a stationary balls spinning against the cloth, but I think the results would apply fairly well to a moving ball sliding across the cloth. If anything, the effective friction might be even slightly higher with more speed since air drag become more of a factor at higher ball speed.

The article doesn't have much applied discussion since it is a technical physics paper.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Poolmanis]

I want to give my opinion about drawing the rock.

I disagree a lot of posts at this thread and want to add something what I learned when I practiced draw.

Pidges method is best way to draw ball when object and cueball are 1 to 4 ft away from another. IMO.

When we go shots where is more distance with object and cueball, then I say most effective way to shot is 'hammerlike' stroke.
Tip should be then maybe 80% of maximum of miscue limit or its gonna deflect too early towards table. That will also deflect cueball slightly upwards so it will be some or most its path to object ball airborne. Then stroke speed brings extra rpm and friction of table does not eat it away.

Just my opinion. But I believe no one can beat me when drawing a rock

 

[mantis99]

Because it's so common for the cue speed to increase smoothly during the forward stroke as you mentioned above and because it seems to happen so naturally I really don't see the point of purposely trying to start your forward stroke even slower. I've tried this several times and it leads to the exact opposite of a smooth stroke. It seems like just having a distinct pause at the end of the backstroke would be enough to ensure a nice smooth acceleration of the cue on the forward stroke.

Messing with your delivery between the point of the pause and the finish of the cue doesn't seem like a good idea to me and for me it feels practically impossible.

This, like everything else can be somewhat individual. If you already have a nice, smooth transition, then you obviously don't need to change that. However, for many players, that is not the case!!

I personally believe that this piece of advise is one of the main areas that I would teach to any newer player. I think most grip too hard and accelerate too quickly on most shots leading to stroke errors. With a good stroke where the cue tip actually hits the CB where intended, the CB can be moved large distances with relative ease. Because so many of us do not achieve this, we start over stroking, and putting way more power into shots than is needed. I believe that gaining a smooth graduated transition leading to a more accurate stroke allows a strong stroke base that will lead people to progress much more quickly than they ever would without it.

Great post Pidge.

 

[mantis99]

I don't know about you guys but...

While I tend to agree with just about everything Pidge writes, I can't for the life of me figure out how anybody can actually do what he is proposing here. I've tried this out and I just can't even come close to getting the timing of this down and I'm not sure that it would be worth it if I could.

Having a smooth transition from the backstroke to the forward stroke is one thing BUT actually trying to purposely slow down the beginning of the forward stroke just seems too complicated to me and if someone were to actually focus on trying to do this -- how would they not introduce a jerky motion into their stroke (for lack of a better term)?

Not sure about this one...

I don't think you are purposely slowing it down, but instead accelerating from the pause to finish more smoothly, instead of getting the cue to top speed with a quick, violent move immediately from the pause.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I don't think you are purposely slowing it down, but instead accelerating from the pause to finish more smoothly, instead of getting the cue to top speed with a quick, violent move immediately from the pause.

Right. The idea is to avoid jerky cue actions and to help improve your timing. The most extreme example of this is Stephen Maguire, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4RSnN8Kn-M. I wouldn't recommend copying that approach, even though it seems to work for him. A lot of good players already do this naturally, but the best examples are the ones who have the timing down perfectly.

Ronnie O'Sullivan and Shane Van Boening come to mind.

 

[BasementDweller]

I don't think you are purposely slowing it down, but instead accelerating from the pause to finish more smoothly, instead of getting the cue to top speed with a quick, violent move immediately from the pause.

Right. The idea is to avoid jerky cue actions and to help improve your timing. The most extreme example of this is Stephen Maguire, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4RSnN8Kn-M. I wouldn't recommend copying that approach, even though it seems to work for him. A lot of good players already do this naturally, but the best examples are the ones who have the timing down perfectly.

Ronnie O'Sullivan and Shane Van Boening come to mind.

I agree with you guys and I think pretty much everybody does.

My comments were based on the specifics of what Pidge wrote in his initial post. He mentioned purposely starting your forward stroke more slowly than usual and gave some insight into how someone could do this. He mentioned trying to do this in the first inch or so of the forward stroke (paraphrasing). I've tried this and found it to be unworkable. At this point, I'll just bow out since I'm obviously the only one hung up on what Pidge actually wrote.

Speaking of the pause....

I love having a distinct pause between the back stroke and the forward stroke. I tried forever to work this into my stroke and figured out the key to the pause years ago. If you're like me and you didn't start out using a distinct pause, trying to add one later on can feel very unnatural and next to impossible to implement but there's a way to do it.

The key is in the eye pattern used. So while feathering the ball you focus on the cue ball and maybe shift your eyes to the object ball a time or two. Then while you are pulling the cue back on the final back stroke you are focusing intently on the cue ball. When you reach the end of the back stroke you shift your eyes to the object ball. It's the shifting of the eyes that helps create the pause. The eyes lead the stroke and it makes it feel so much more natural. Well, at least it did for me years ago.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I agree with you guys and I think pretty much everybody does.

My comments were based on the specifics of what Pidge wrote in his initial post. He mentioned purposely starting your forward stroke more slowly than usual and gave some insight into how someone could do this. He mentioned trying to do this in the first inch or so of the forward stroke (paraphrasing). I've tried this and found it to be unworkable. At this point, I'll just bow out since I'm obviously the only one hung up on what Pidge actually wrote.

Speaking of the pause....

I love having a distinct pause between the back stroke and the forward stroke. I tried forever to work this into my stroke and figured out the key to the pause years ago. If you're like me and you didn't start out using a distinct pause, trying to add one later on can feel very unnatural and next to impossible to implement but there's a way to do it.

The key is in the eye pattern used. So while feathering the ball you focus on the cue ball and maybe shift your eyes to the object ball a time or two. Then while you are pulling the cue back on the final back stroke you are focusing intently on the cue ball. When you reach the end of the back stroke you shift your eyes to the object ball. It's the shifting of the eyes that helps create the pause. The eyes lead the stroke and it makes it feel so much more natural. Well, at least it did for me years ago.

I understand what you are saying, and following that advice literally during match play may be counter productive. But I think the description can help someone who does have problems with a jerky cue action. I see it as a starting to point to work from.

Another approach is to find a video of a pro who does it well and try to mimic their timing while filming yourself. Not sure how well that would work, just an idea I had.

 

[Pidge]

I understand what you are saying, and following that advice literally during match play may be counter productive. But I think the description can help someone who does have problems with a jerky cue action. I see it as a starting to point to work from.

Another approach is to find a video of a pro who does it well and try to mimic their timing while filming yourself. Not sure how well that would work, just an idea I had.

Don't ever try mimic another person's timing. It can ruin your cue action. A better way is to film yourself just hitting shots, say 10 straight in shots trying to stop the cue ball dead. Remember what number shots achieved this because when you watch it back you can come up with a count for the shots you hit perfect, or a word. I know of 2 professionals that use words to time their cue action. One uses the word strawberry, the other uses the word turtle. Weird, eh? Notice how they're both 2 syllables. 1st syllable is the back stroke, the other the delivery phase. They say it in their head as they cue... Or more when they're playing poorly to help get their timing back. I personally count. 1..2..3 on the back swing. 1...2 on the pause. 3...4 on the delivery. It's all highly personal but filming your self and matching counts or words to your cue action can really help with making your timing repeatable, especially when you're having a bad day.

Basement Dweller touched on a really great point about the pause. He mentions eye patterns. A person's natural eye pattern will usually make them naturally have a back pause. The eyes need time to focus in on a target, kind of like auto adjust on a camera. So if you look at the cue ball towards the back of the pull back chances are you will have a natural pause. I switch my eyes to the OB after I've brought my cue all the way back and are already pausing. This is why my back pause is so long and deliberate looking. The further the OB is from me the longer my pause to allow my eyes to auto adjust on the target. Older players with deteriorating eyes could benefit from a longer back pause... Or switch to the OB before they pull back and have a longer front pause to allow their eyes to auto adjust more. Just my opinion. I guess I'll find this out for my self when I'm in my 50s in a few decades.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Don't ever try mimic another person's timing. It can ruin your cue action. A better way is to film yourself just hitting shots, say 10 straight in shots trying to stop the cue ball dead. Remember what number shots achieved this because when you watch it back you can come up with a count for the shots you hit perfect, or a word. I know of 2 professionals that use words to time their cue action. One uses the word strawberry, the other uses the word turtle. Weird, eh? Notice how they're both 2 syllables. 1st syllable is the back stroke, the other the delivery phase. They say it in their head as they cue... Or more when they're playing poorly to help get their timing back. I personally count. 1..2..3 on the back swing. 1...2 on the pause. 3...4 on the delivery. It's all highly personal but filming your self and matching counts or words to your cue action can really help with making your timing repeatable, especially when you're having a bad day.

Good point, and an interesting idea about the words. My timing has been off recently, so I'll try it out.

What do you think about about practicing this by starting without an object ball? Just knocking balls straight into pockets, or hitting the ball up and down the table, so you can focus on your timing without concerning yourself with successful pots. Then as you get the feel for it reintroduce the object ball and try to keep that seem feel.

I also started switching my eyes to object ball on rear pause last year. Made a big difference for me.

 

[ceebee]

In the book "Pleasures of Small Motions", rhythm is discussed in chapter 5 "Rhythm - Put some music in your moves"

I heard one time somewhere, that we should practice with Waltz music in the background.

 

[Wheels33]

Because your cue is never level, the butt is always higher than the tip, especially on draw shots think of the slow start as letting the butt naturally swing for the first inch before you use any muscles to drive the cue forward. If you try to control the cue for the first inch with your arm then it is hard to do. As you pull the arm all the way back let it naturally return the cue forwards before getting the biceps involved. This was like a light bulb moment for me when trying to master it.

Like I said before....this advice is gold.

I tried it last night, and while I still need to get consistent with it, on most of my shots it worked fantastic.

When I tried to go slowly at the start of the forward stroke before, I was trying to use muscles to slowly start it....very unnatural....never worked for me, it made me put a slight tension in my grip.

It never occurred to me to just stay loose and let gravity start it off....then kick in the muscles once the cue got going.

again, great tip.....I feel like it was the one piece I was missing.

 

[lakeman77]

Pidge

tried it and you are correct. Gradual acceleration. Saying strawberry helps a lot.

thanks

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Many sports rely on acceleration through impact for power. Trying to generate that speed at the beginning of the stroke often leads to decel through the impact zone. In golf it's referred to as "hitting from the top". In pool I'd call it "hitting from the back". The best way to assure acceleration where it counts is to start slow. :smile:

 

[John Brumback]

A hit is a hit. pee on the fire and call in the dogs...this hunts over John B.

 

[SilverCue]

http://www.azbilliards.com/news/sto...ssing-manual-chapter-seven-easy-does-it-dude/